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Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 5:54 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65)
Parent article: Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Well, I just wanted to say that I am really sad to see this split. :-( "Inclusive" by excluding one person or persons who support that person, doesn't look very inclusive to me.

Was this the only way to solve this issue? Is this pressure tactics? Who is benefiting from this? Is anyone thinking about the "users"?


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Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 6:33 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (45 responses)

GNU projects have had splits before, and the users benefited. Eg: gcc->egcs (egcs became the "new" gcc); emacs->xemacs (latter had many improvements that never got merged, because of the copyright assignment issue, to the detriment of GNU emacs users, though GNU emacs eventually caught up).

In this case, most of the people behind gnu.tools seem to be active in GNU projects and no split seems likely at the project level.

I don't think anybody is suggesting excluding RMS from this project, or from the original GNU project. Putting him in a position of leadership is a different matter.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 7:36 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link] (44 responses)

> I don't think anybody is suggesting excluding RMS from this project..

But that is what this essentially is. People who dislike his beliefs (unrelated to free software) have created a new governance structure that excludes him.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 8:55 UTC (Fri) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (42 responses)

Seems quite reasonable to stop hanging out with people if you find out they cheat, or steal, don't bathe, are anti-vaxxers, yell at
everyone else to be vegan, are sexist/racist/nationalist, are flat earthers, are scammers, run ransomware, whatever. The idea that you, me or anyone should compartmentalise such a person's behaviour and keep hanging out with them is ridiculous, just because all these beliefs are "unrelated to free software".

If you annoy too many people around you with your behaviour, of course they will eventually hang out together elsewhere. It's taken literal years, decades even, for this to happen despite a significant proportion of people reportedly finding him unpleasant. It's like saying "this person kept punching too many people in the gut and saying things they found pretty disgusting, and eventually lots of those people stopped inviting him to dinner and don't think he should be on the welcome committee any more... how sad".

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 9:06 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link] (18 responses)

The question is whether these beliefs a person holds comes in between in your daily interactions (if at all you interact with a person daily) or not. Do you evaluate a work place or a team you work with based on what thoughts your co-workers hold outside work?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 9:28 UTC (Fri) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link] (3 responses)

The parent comment said explicitly "If you annoy too many people around you with your behaviour", and at this point it's clear that too many people are annoyed, as witnessed by the success of the "open letter" calling for his resignation.

The GNU Assembly is an attempt to provide a future for GNU projects, mostly by those people who don't want or cannot sign an open letter urging to refuse to contribute to projects related to the FSF.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 11:08 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link] (2 responses)

GNU already has a manifesto. It also has a communication guidelines document. What more is accomplished by a new social contract and a CoC?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 16:37 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

The people behind GNU Assembly want a different governing structure. This is mentioned as one of the goals of the project, and I think it's really the big issue they're going after, more so than a social contract or CoC. My impression is this is a critical background issue in the controversy over RMS. His behavior is the thing that's generate the most noise, but the underlying issue is people feeling that the board that reappointed him are unresponsive to their views.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 18:37 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> but the underlying issue is people feeling that the board that reappointed him are unresponsive to their views.

Serious question. What does "unresponsive" mean in this context?

Refused to listen? Listened but came to different conclusions? Or something else entirely?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 13:42 UTC (Fri) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (13 responses)

> Do you evaluate a work place or a team you work with based on what thoughts your co-workers hold outside work?

I do indeed allow my opinion of someone to change based on things they say/do outside of the immediate contexts I know them. If I found out they have a side business scamming old people by calling them and pretending something is wrong with the computer, if they said they enjoyed groping people on crowded public transport, if they liked punching strangers in the back of the head to knock them over for laughs, if they were irrationally aggressive to staff who have no control over store/restaurant policies... then yes, I would change my opinion and my interactions with them.

And in case you want to hand-wave about "thoughts": spoken or written thoughts are very much actions, and we all treat them as such. If your parent told you they wished you'd never been born, you wouldn't dismiss it as "well it's just a thought".

Suppose I join a group with regular game nights and after a while one person insists on taking off their clothes, they've been told not to multiple times and keeps doing it no matter how uncomfortable it makes other people. People complain but the person says, "Me and my pals started this gaming group and there's no rule against nudity". Sooner or later we'll stop punishing ourselves hanging out with this person and make a separate gaming group. If it was an online gaming group it would have a "no nudity" code of conduct so that if that person or someone like them joined, the expectations are clear and ignorance can't be claimed as an excuse. That person probably wouldn't join (they'd probably find it a bit humiliating) but none of us have to put up with someone being persistently and unrepentantly naked in our face just because we play the same games^.

^ Or both believe in free software, or are both straight, or have literally any other thing in common.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 10:22 UTC (Sat) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (5 responses)

But would it be reasonable if your no nudity code of conduct prohibited people to attend nudist camps when they want to?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 14:32 UTC (Sat) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (4 responses)

Well, the line being drawn is "nudity around people who do not consent" so nudity camps is probably okay? But since it's about consent and understanding why it's needed, then what you want is for the person to acknowledge they understand why it was wrong and give an undertaking never to repeat it. Without that or a trite "I'm sorry you were offended", then it might well make sense to exclude the person because they might narrowly follow the lesson of "nudity not okay at game night". Then next week it's not nudity at game night but instead at the weekend hike or at a backyard BBQ.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 21:52 UTC (Sat) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, I don't know what it is about North American cultural norms, but in the two Australasian tech conferences that I attend, a progression that goes:

1. Sexually harass women verbally. Get told to cut that shit out.
2. Sexually harass women with business cards. Get told to cut that out.
3. Interpret that to mean I can invite women to leave the conference grounds, and sexually harass them.

...would be unlikely to have step 3, or even step 2. I'd be ejected when it because clear that my conference objective was "sexually harass women", even if I was a speaker. I'm not sure why it's normal in North America and has so many fanatical defenders here.

But I do know that it's probably why I met a woman at Kiwicon 8 who explained to me that the reason she attends that conference, and not Black Hat or the other high-profile hacker cons, is because, in her words "she's less likely to be sexually assaulted at Kiwicon".

Apparently, though, a vocal chunk of the free software community feel that accepting sexual harassment is a price that has to be paid by women who want to participate.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 21:55 UTC (Sat) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

I glossed over on *why* is that systemic problem connected to the "let's boot RMS from GNU and the FSF".

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 18, 2021 21:21 UTC (Sun) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link] (1 responses)

Apparently you feel that presumption of innocence is no longer a thing and we directly go from accusation to penalty directly.

Angry mobs with no idea of actual facts do not get to decide anything at all.

I am not familiar with Australian social norms, but I know you put right wing extremists in power so you might think that's a normal thing to do, but in some parts of the world it's not how it works.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 18, 2021 21:29 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Stop here. Seriously. All of you. This is not an elementary school playground.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 12:20 UTC (Sat) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (6 responses)

Let me understand your analogy: the GNUassembly joined the GNU thing that RMS founded (with lots of effort and against lots of industry pushback) and they are uncomfortable with HIS controversies (some of them are unfounded, since he changed his mind in lots of opinions he voiced in the past) so they think RMS should not participate in the thing that he founded because of those? The second part ("if there was already a rule in place etc") does not apply, because the thing was built from the ground up.

Again: they want another project, with another strategic direction, and all the Bender-style BJ&Hs? Ok. They even have a fair chance of succeeding, especially if their contributions are as substantial as the material would have us believe. But it will not continue to be the GNU project, so they should not use the GNU name. If they think the organization they currently contribute to (the FSF) is (on the way to becoming?) irrelevant, they should stop contributing to that organization. Fork the projects, etc.

This continues smelling like a coup. Sorry.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 15:00 UTC (Sat) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (1 responses)

My analogy was simply that if many of the people in your group are disgruntled, they will eventually act. If they still care about the group's activity then they may well start a new group.

I haven't read the detail of the GNU Assembly myself because I don't personally care enough about the FSF or GNU that much any more. Over the years, LWN has reported on many political fights over project governance or direction, and I find it simplest to view this through that lens. Even if some people feel this is unfairly misrepresenting RMS, the reality is that there is dissatisfaction and a deep rift and in those situations then project departures, forks or coups are very likely and/or inevitable.

To lightly touch on the naming issue, I suppose that yes maybe it'd be nicer for the Assembly not to reuse the name "GNU". That said, from my distant observer view I'm not really sure what the GNU project actually is or does any more, and thus what there is to "steal". When I think about Debian there is a developer keyring, a release process, FTP admins, , a technical committee, a project secretary, a voting process etc, all sitting above a bunch of people who act as software package maintainers and developers. Forgive my ignorance, but with the GNU project, we have the equivalent of the package maintainers/developers on a loose collection of individual software projects. What is there at a project level above that? Is there anything for LWN to report on in the same way it can report on Debian processes, or WireGuard, or Python's PEP process, or GNOME release numbering?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 22:58 UTC (Sat) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

There's nothing specific. There's a "chief GNUisance" (Stallman), a handful of people from the FSF staff (handling for example copyrights), and that's it.

Maintainers have two mailing lists that they subscribe too, but they are not particularly active (to the point that I myself am not even sure if I am still subscribed or not).

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 21, 2021 12:57 UTC (Wed) by timrichardson (subscriber, #72836) [Link] (3 responses)

It's not a coup. The quote from Stallman about the responsibilities of a GNU volunteer means that the FSF exercises little authority over GNU volunteers ... it won't even call them members. To have a coup, you would need to have a legitimated authority that people are rebelling again. But the FSF doesn't claim that authority.
This is a governance fork if it is anything.
The FSF has "soft power": prestige and a reputation. I agree that this initiative is a strike against that. It indirectly criticises the FSF, and if it is successful, there will be a new collective with prestige and reputation. But I don't see anything wrong with people trying to do that. If it makes them feel better about their contribution to free software, we all win. Opposing this is a bit like opposing unions.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 21, 2021 15:51 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (2 responses)

An interesting metaphor and more applicable and in a different way than probably intended.

Unions have for nearly four decades now acted primarily to suppress strikes, to pacify the demand for higher wages, and to sell their services to management as arbiters of labor peace, as scab organizations, not as organizations of the working class.

Similarly, I see this "movement" as being led by people closely coupled with the major corporations posing as a grass roots movement. It's one reason the demographics of the petitions pro- and against Stallman are so thoroughly different. The effective promise is that a reconstituted FSF will be more "reasonable" on a number of fronts -- some related to the window-dressing attached to them (the settling of scores by the manufactured sexual scandal) -- others, the deeper ones, neutering it as the independent and trenchant voice of critical outlook that it has been.

The roots of the division began with the economics, as they almost always do, and the retrenchment of the major unix companies in the early 1990s into a period of constructing a commons, the better to ward off the rising threat of Microsoft. But as the industry changed, by the end of the next decade there was once again a desire to have at least the capacity to re-differentiate themselves, and sharpen the old tools. The fight over GPL3 brought this into the open. The corporations have never forgiven Stallman for not being sufficiently pliant in that definition process, as some of his advisors proved to be in the aftermath.

So yes, having the FSF as a modern "union" together with some of the other "institutes" and "centers" responsive at the top to a nucleus of large firms is precisely what is intended. The protection of the commons and the values it contains are not, except for when and how they proximately serve the interests of those pulling the strings.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 21, 2021 16:25 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

> Unions have for nearly four decades now acted primarily to suppress strikes, to pacify the demand for higher wages, and to sell their services to management as arbiters of labor peace, as scab organizations, not as organizations of the working class.

Do you have sources for this? Numerous strikes have occurred in the past four decades, though I can't speak to their frequency versus prior decades. Corporations are certainly still itching to get away from them (e.g., Harley Davidson outsourcing some subassemblies to non-labor contracting companies). Is it a difference between older unions and newer unions perhaps?

FWIW, I'm not doubting that this happens (e.g., one of my summer jobs seemed to have overtones of this, but I was only there for a single summer, so I wasn't that in-tune to the larger arcs of such things), but to claim it's the way that unions work these days sure smells like a strawman (or cherry-picking) to me.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 21, 2021 18:01 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

Contact me offline if you'd like to continue the conversation, I'm easy to find and it's not directly germaine to the subject here. But regarding strikes, it's easy to find graphs that show a steep dropoff in the early 1980s, around the time of the PATCO defeat, but it's an international process. E.g. this graph:
https://images.jacobinmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/...

Why this is so engenders some debate. I myself adhere to the explanation of the increasing globalization of production and the inability of national organizations to wage a counteroffensive. I refer you to this lecture, which includes the observation that "Nationally-based labor organizations are simply incapable of seriously challenging internationally-organized corporations."
https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/fi-20-1/02.html

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 10:17 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

All true, plus
  • he's being, at most, "excluded" from governance (of this new setup), not from the project;
  • the genesis seems to be back in 2011, as per Andy Wingo's mail reproduced there; it may have been given impetus by recent events but clearly had been festering a while before that.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 10:59 UTC (Fri) by Shiba (guest, #151620) [Link] (21 responses)

No one is asking anyone to hang out with anyone, literally just to contribute to the project. I have little faith hanging with the "right people" will not become a requirement if this group takes over.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 12:01 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (20 responses)

The group, in particular its founders, is by and large the same group who have been doing development (largely of toolchain projects) for a very long time indeed: many of the members date back to Cygnus times. Just glancing at the current membership list we see dangerous radicals like Carlos O'Donell (major glibc maintainer), Jeff Law (the guy who ran RH's tools team for fifteen years and Cygnus before then and has contributed almost 6000 GCC commits by this point), Tom Tromey (probably the most important committer GDB has right now and active in the project since 1996), Mark Wielaard (decades of work on classpath, the late lamented gcj, also lots of commits to toolchain projects and oh yes elfutils though that is not GNU), all the Guile maintainers for the last decade or so, the only active maintainer for GNU HURD (also involved for decades)... the list goes on and on and includes a significant percentage of the people who do the actual work on major GNU projects and have done so for a very long time. This is not an insurgency. This is the people who more or less wrote many of the systems that are a core part of GNU saying "enough!"

They see what is plainly obvious by this point: the FSF is in a sudden death spiral, haemorrhaging supporters, patrons, funding, and as I understand it all its staff, all its management and half its board, all that in under a month. Some parts of GNU are extremely valuable, but if those parts stay shackled to a dying whale there is a danger they might get pulled down with it: so it's best to be ready to cut loose if the FSF cannot right itself. The people who spent decades of their lives on it do not like the idea of being pulled down with the whale. I am not remotely surprised.

(This is an overstatement, really: the FSF is not a whale. The legal and organizational jobs the FSF provides to GNU projects can largely be provided by a dozen other similar organizations now, most of which do a much better job at that sort of thing than the famously delay-prone FSF. The only worrisome part is the FSF's stewardship of the GPL and the 'or any later version' clauses. That probably can't be taken away from them, and honestly given that the FSF seems to have come out into the open as an explicit personality cult I'm not sure I trust a major license in its hands any more. Far smarter people than me are thinking about this, and something will surely get done.)

-- N., associate FSF member for a decade, no longer. For me the tipping point was the unilateral removal by RMS of the moderator of the (fairly obscure) GNU list that was explicitly set up by a bunch of toolchain people (again) to discuss potential governance improvements, and his replacement with a stunningly incapable moderator who proceeded to (as far as anyone can tell) invite onto the list a lot of people for the explicitly-stated reason that they would support RMS, and then do no actual moderation as those people destroyed the discussion. Many of these suddenly-appearing people had never done anything with the core GNU projects as far as I can tell and had names I do not recognize despite decades of hanging out on many GNU development lists. Some of them expressed confusion about where all these messages were coming from and may have been subscribed without their consent by someone inside FSF infrastructure (perhaps the same moderator). Others of these new people proceeded to troll, attack and outright doxx people (!!) for the sin of trying to improve FSF governance. Only when this eventually turned into attacking people for the crime of being GNU contributors while female was anything done, and even then only after much protest, and what was done was insultingly minimal. I will not link to the discussion because it frankly turned my stomach and gave me nightmares. But nobody should support an organization that does this to *its own contributors*. We can do better than this -- we must -- but we cannot do it from inside a personality cult.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 12:15 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (4 responses)

Thank you for this post and the insider perspective. And yes it sounds horrifying.

One of many things Linus got right, very early, was his rejection of the "or any later version" clause for Linux. That is a concern, going forward.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 17:40 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

As I understand it, some of the "payment" for the copyright assignment, is a commitment that any "or later" version will uphold the Free Software values, I guess that means the 3/4 freedoms.

So I *think* that a new GPL allowing closed source for example, would not be possible because it would be a breach of the contract granting the FSF the copyright.

Cheers,
Wol

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 20:55 UTC (Fri) by bpearlmutter (subscriber, #14693) [Link]

That is correct. All this "FSF could go nuts and make the GNU GPL v3 into a blood contract with the devil" is pure fear mongering. Not only would they never want to do that, whatever else one might accuse the FSF board or RMS of; such an action is not even legally possible.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 19, 2021 14:49 UTC (Mon) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link] (1 responses)

That promise is in the licenses themselves. Both the GPL versions 2 and 3 contain the following text:

The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns.

If the FSF were to be infiltrated and a new GPL version released that dropped the copyleft properties or gave some corporation special rights over covered code, it's not at all clear whether it could count as a new version of the existing licenses.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 19, 2021 19:04 UTC (Mon) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

If the FSF were to be infiltrated and a new GPL version released that dropped the copyleft properties or gave some corporation special rights over covered code, it's not at all clear whether it could count as a new version of the existing licenses.

The part about future licenses being similar in spirit seems like an ambiguous promise that would be very messy to enforce in practice. It's unfortunate that the future of the GPL might possibly rely on how courts interpret that clause. It certainly seems like a good reason to stick with a specific version of the license rather than version X or later. At the very least, it would probably be better for projects with a well-defined leadership team to say the decision to move to a newer version of the license would be at the discretion of the leadership team rather than letting the FSF make that call.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 12:18 UTC (Fri) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link] (3 responses)

> I will not link to the discussion

I'll do it for you then.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-...

And I invite everyone to read the discussions surrounding "improving governance" and moderation and make up their own mind.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 14:08 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (2 responses)

I had a look at that thread. My reading is, the people involved (Mark Wiellard, Carlos O'Donell, etc) had been trying to work within the GNU system, and RMS (or someone) felt threatened and shut them down.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 17:36 UTC (Fri) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (1 responses)

This is an inversion of history. They (Wielaard, O'Donnell, etc.) assumed control of some lists and proceeded to moderate the conversation of anything opposing their oh-so-cheery but ham-fisted proposals. Yes, there was shutting down, but precisely opposite that of your cleverly curated version.

It is an example and a warning.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 21:37 UTC (Fri) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

You're omitting to mention the cesspool that the mailing list became overnight as soon as moderation was lifted, making any kind of discussion impossible.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 12:31 UTC (Fri) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (1 responses)

Let's suppose, as a stretch, that you are right and those people tried to establish a constructive dialogue with the FSF. But do all those people have a right to the original trademark? Ok, they want to leave the FSF and start their own projects, Bender-style? Shouldn't they call it TING/This Is Not GNU or something like it? Using an identical subdomain name on another top-level-domain, without permission? Since when it's ok to do that?

Do I think FSF is perfect? No. But does something smell fishy here? Definitely.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 16:39 UTC (Fri) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

Unfortunately, the FSF decided to use the same term ("GNU") for both the software and the organization which develops it. By their own rules,[1] it is appropriate to use the term "GNU" to refer to the software, without explicit trademark disclaimers. The GNU Assembly is a group of people who develop the GNU software. Calling themselves "Not GNU" would imply that they are setting up a fork of the software or something of that nature, which so far as I can tell is not what they are in fact doing.

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Trademarks.html

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 13:15 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link]

Thanks for the comments and insights. Seem like a sad state.

I wish things get better for GNU and FSF and the original goals of software freedom without excluding contributors and hope non-contributors (like some of the signers of the so called "successful" open letter) won't play the same tricks in the future.

My last post on this topic on LWN.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 16:40 UTC (Fri) by mhw (guest, #13931) [Link] (2 responses)

Just glancing at the current membership list we see [...] all the Guile maintainers for the last decade or so
That's incorrect. I was a GNU Guile co-maintainer for over 5 years, from May 2014 until September 2019, and I strongly oppose these attempts to radically change GNU governance. As I wrote elsewhere, only about 6% of GNU maintainers have ever supported this.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 17:01 UTC (Fri) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link]

If I'm correct your self restraint here in choice of mailing list references in order to not escalate things is admirable.

I wish everyone in this matter would take the high ground.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 18, 2021 14:03 UTC (Sun) by Kluge (subscriber, #2881) [Link]

6% of current maintainers (and/or significant contributors), or 6% of all the maintainers throughout the history of GNU?

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 18:25 UTC (Fri) by mhw (guest, #13931) [Link] (4 responses)

For me the tipping point was the unilateral removal by RMS of the moderator of the (fairly obscure) GNU list that was explicitly set up by a bunch of toolchain people (again) to discuss potential governance improvements, and his replacement with a stunningly incapable moderator who proceeded to (as far as anyone can tell) invite onto the list a lot of people for the explicitly-stated reason that they would support RMS, and then do no actual moderation as those people destroyed the discussion.

This is a severe distortion of the truth.

First of all, only about 6% of GNU maintainers have ever supported this initiative to radically change GNU governance.

Here's what was truly inappropriate: John Sullivan (outgoing FSF executive director) unilaterally decided that two Red Hat employees from this 6% minority faction should be given total control of a pre-existing GNU mailing list with a long history (gnu-misc-discuss), for purposes of moderating a debate over GNU governance.

Would anyone here like to argue that it was legitimate for two Red Hat employees to moderate that debate?

To make matters worse, it soon became apparent that inoffensive messages in support of RMS were being rejected, without explanation, by these two people (Mark Wielaard and Carlos O'Donell) who were among the most vocal advocates among the 6% for radically changing GNU governance.

One of those inoffensive messages was forwarded to an internal GNU mailing list where GNU maintainers had been debating this issue privately. I was a first-hand participant in those discussions, and I asked anyone there (which included Mark Wielaard and Carlos O'Donell, whom I also CC'd) to justify why the message had been blocked, and no one even attempted to explain what was wrong with the message.

At that point, it became clear to everyone without an axe to grind that new moderators were needed. Even if they hadn't been censoring legitimate messages in support of RMS, it was already a blatant conflict of interest that two employees of Red Hat (which had been acquired by IBM a few months earlier) should be moderating a discussion on GNU governance.

The (two, not one) new moderators whom you've unjustly impugned allowed both sides in this debate to speak freely, while doing their best to block offensive posts, given the (IMO, reasonable) decision that people who had already made several unoffensive posts should be added to the whitelist.

It's true that a few offensive posts got through the moderation. What happened is that two people had already participated in a few threads without making any offensive posts, so they made it onto the whitelist. Sometime later, they each posted some garbage.

Now, some people believe that every post should be held until moderators approve the message. That's the only way to eliminate the risk of offensive posts getting through. On the other hand, it would have significantly hindered the discussion. Reasonable people may disagree about what the policy should have been, but in any case, it's blatantly false to suggest that the new moderators did "no actual moderation as those people destroyed the discussion."

Many of these suddenly-appearing people had never done anything with the core GNU projects as far as I can tell and had names I do not recognize despite decades of hanging out on many GNU development lists.
This leaves the impression that most of the people defending RMS are outsiders. That's simply false. As I wrote above, only 6% of GNU maintainers have ever supported this initiative.
Others of these new people proceeded to troll, attack and outright doxx people (!!) for the sin of trying to improve FSF governance.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here (evidence?), but in any case, RMS cannot be held responsible for every troll who posts a message ostensibly in support of him. If we cannot agree on that basic principle, I find that very worrisome.

I should also point out that there's a tremendous amount of misinformation being propagated about RMS, which many people seem to be blindly accepting as fact. Based on that assumption, they proceed to summarily dismiss anyone who defends RMS as a crank (or worse).

I strongly encourage people to adopt a skeptical attitude. Demand evidence, and look closely at that evidence. In today's world, it has become disturbingly common for misinformation to spread far more effectively than careful assessments of the facts. In this case, look at RMS's actual words in their original context, and not the summaries being given by those who seek to ostracize him. Those of us who actually know RMS well, which includes me, know that the vast majority of what is being said about him is flatly incorrect.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 21:55 UTC (Fri) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link] (3 responses)

All discussion on GNU mostly happened on the maintainer list gnu-prog-discuss. Perhaps gnu-misc-discuss had historically hosted interesting discussions, but not in the previous 10 years.

Despite the "long history" of gnu-misc-discuss, it had a well-deserved reputation of being a place full of trolls where no discussion whatsoever had been possible for years. Which is precisely the state to which the mailing list reverted after Mark and Carlos's moderation was lifted. A month or two later, Date/Received headers suggested that proponents of the GNU Social Contract such as Ludovic Courtes were moderated while toxic people were taken off the blacklist by the moderators and could post freely.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 0:02 UTC (Sat) by mhw (guest, #13931) [Link] (1 responses)

Hi Paolo,
Despite the "long history" of gnu-misc-discuss, it had a well-deserved reputation of being a place full of trolls where no discussion whatsoever had been possible for years.

I agree that the signal-to-noise ratio on that list has historically been very low. I mentioned its "long history" only because the message I responded to might have led some to believe that it was a new mailing list set up by Mark and Carlos which RMS seized control of. In fact, Mark and Carlos seized control of an existing long-established mailing list, with the help of John Sullivan.

Which is precisely the state to which the mailing list reverted after Mark and Carlos's moderation was lifted.

I think that's an exaggeration. It was certainly a heated discussion. Any public discussion about a contentious topic is likely to get ugly; that's just a fact of life. It was not our choice to make it a public debate in the first place.

I understand that the 6% in favor of radically changing GNU governance would have greatly preferred to have a discussion amongst themselves, with dissenting voices only allowed to speak to the extent that the 6% chose to allow it.

I note that you didn't respond to my point about it being a blatant conflict of interest for two Red Hat employees to be moderating a debate over the future governance of GNU, but I see that you are also a Red Hat employee.

That is enough

Posted Apr 17, 2021 0:16 UTC (Sat) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

This is starting to look an awful lot like the repetitive discussion you were asked to discontinue not all that long ago. I believe it has gone far enough; we're all aware of the views on this subject — many times over. Please stop here, for real this time.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 17, 2021 0:14 UTC (Sat) by mhw (guest, #13931) [Link]

A month or two later, Date/Received headers suggested that proponents of the GNU Social Contract such as Ludovic Courtes were moderated [...]
Were any of his messages blocked? If so, this is the first time I've heard any suggestion that the new moderators blocked posts by those of the 6%.

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 11:38 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

>> I don't think anybody is suggesting excluding RMS from this project..
> But that is what this essentially is. People who dislike his beliefs (unrelated to free software) have created a new governance structure that excludes him.

Which, ironically, is a violation of their own "Social Contract"

(And arguably the first and second items of the "standards" in their code of conduct...)

Kicking off the GNU Assembly

Posted Apr 16, 2021 7:34 UTC (Fri) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link]

Large-enough groups have either had to eject that one person who was annoying everyone else, or crashed, or at least split, when everyone that that person was annoying left. In practice, groups that pride themselves on being completely inclusive often drive away a lot of people.


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