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An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 12:41 UTC (Wed) by mikapfl (subscriber, #84646)
In reply to: An open letter to Apache OpenOffice by am
Parent article: An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

> > After all, it's not @ApacheOO who is constantly whining about working together, or to "do the right thing", while doing not one whit to actually make it happen. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Sure, the rest of the comment is also out-of-touch, but just ot drive the point home, there is also this completely unnecessary misogynistic remark.


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An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 14:21 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (9 responses)

I'm as skeptical of the complaints against "cancel culture" as anyone, but calling this a misogynistic remark is taking it too far in my opinion. That Hamlet quote is so famous that it has its own, separate wikipedia page, and it was used here completely in context.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 16:07 UTC (Wed) by mikapfl (subscriber, #84646) [Link] (8 responses)

Okay, I didn't know that this is a Hamlet quote. Maybe it does ring differently for native speakers, but I'll just say that because some remark has been in use for 500 years does not at all mean it is not misogynistic.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 16:22 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

It absolutely isn't misogynistic.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 16:25 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (6 responses)

It arguably *was* misogynistic in its original context (Queen Gertrude was referring to a play-within-a-play character's protestations of fidelity, ironically contrasting with her own swift marriage to Claudius after King Hamlet's death). But in this context, it's quite obvious that there is no literal "lady" involved.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 18:07 UTC (Wed) by mikapfl (subscriber, #84646) [Link] (2 responses)

Well, if I call another dude a "pussy" for not drinking with me or whatever, there is also no woman involved and yet it is misogynistic. But since everybody seems to agree that in this context it is not misogynistic, I'll file this saying under "would never use myself, but probably people don't want to be mean if they use it".

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 18:16 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (1 responses)

It's not misandry to use the word ”dick“ as an insult, and it's not misogynistic to use ”pussy“ as an insult either.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 15, 2020 21:16 UTC (Thu) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

This isn't the place for this.

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 18:58 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't buy that it was misogynistic even in the original context. Not every disparaging remark made to or about a woman rises to the level of misogyny.

Certainly I would never argue that there wasn't PLENTY of misogyny in Shakespeare...!! I just don't see it here. Gertrude is simply making a well-known, and completely gender-neutral, observation on the human condition: that the more someone over-emphasizes something the more likely it is that they're not being completely forthcoming about that thing. The fact that the target of the comment is a woman doesn't automatically make it more than that.

To the original poster: I understand that non-native speakers or people not familiar with Hamlet might not get the reference, but in general if you see a statement in quotes like that it refers to a comment made by someone else, and if there's no attribution after it you can assume that it's pretty well-known (Shakespeare, Einstein, Roosevelt, etc. are good bets for quotes--as are Yogi Berra and xkcd!) A quick Google search will often be enough to be sure.

Anyway, I think we've gone far enough afield for this thread! Cheers!

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 14, 2020 22:05 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

The problem lies with Shakespeare, not Gertrude.

The overarching context is that Prince Hamlet thinks Gertrude is being unfaithful, because she remarried soon after King Hamlet's death. Her skepticism is meant to reflect that lack of fidelity. The line is Shakespeare subtly expressing agreement with Hamlet, by making it appear as though Gertrude is feeling some measure of guilt and is projecting that guilt onto the play-within-a-play. But Hamlet has no right to judge his mother's faithfulness in this way. It's an unreasonable standard which undermines her agency, and it arguably falls within what we would now describe as the "Madonna-whore dichotomy" (i.e. the idea that a woman can be virtuous or sexual, but not both).

Claudius was, of course, a murderer, but there's no explicit and overt evidence in the text that Gertrude was aware of this fact. Both Hamlets, at different points, suggest that she is sinful or evil in some fashion, but this is by no means proof of anything. Her remarriage may be read as a matter of political stability - consider how easily Fortinbras takes the crown at the end of the play - or simply as a case of people grieving in different ways. In this reading, she has done no wrong whatsoever.

Some critics have read Gertrude very differently from what I describe above, which is why I used the term "arguably."

An open letter to Apache OpenOffice

Posted Oct 15, 2020 7:38 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Does taking the crown by invading with an army really count as "easy"?

Easier than some things, clearly, especially when you already have the army rolled out, and the target's spymaster has been punctured behind the arras. But compare to Claud taking it by a solitary murder.

Marrying immediately tends to suggest she was already carrying on with him before the event. But the tone-deaf remark tends to exonerate her from involvement in the murder itself.

Curiously, we have no legitimate reason to believe in the murder, ourselves, until we hear Claud own up, and Ham doesn't hear that. It is only after he comes back from the ship that he understands that whatever Claud did or didn't doesn't matter: one must kill the other, full stop.

This concludes our momentary digression to Shakespearean analysis, and we return to regularly scheduled programming. As it were.


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