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Robot

Robot

Posted Jun 19, 2020 14:44 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Robot by Wol
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

Crimea is a great example of how convoluted history can be.

Many of its earliest cities are Greek colonies (I’m quite sure it was not empty land when the Greek came), that got subsumed in the Eastern Roman Empire (which took itself a definitely Greek orientation over time), converted to christian orthodoxy, got invaded by Tatar tribes with most of Kievian Rus’ (predecessor of Both Russia and Ukraine, ally of the Eastern Roman Empire) who made themselves vassals to the Ottoman Empire (destroyer of the Eastern Roman Empire) when infighting among Gengis Khan’s descendants mortally weakened Tatar/Mongol states, got invaded/liberated by the Russians with the rest of the former Kievian Rus’ space (mostly because the Tatars were in the habit of raiding their former Russian subject states, making it impossible to leave them alone for the Russians), fought over by the British and French as allies of the Ottoman Empire (which was occupying Greece at the time), leaving it part of the Russian Empire till it’s implosion during First Word War. Russian Empire who did found some major Crimean cities — the Tatars were not much on urbanism.

So is Crimea Greek ? Russian ? Ukrainian ? Turkish ? Italian ? Mongol ? You can argue all day round.

You won’t say that Marseilles is Greek, yet it was a Greek colony just like the Chersonese settlements back in the time.


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Robot

Posted Jun 20, 2020 11:21 UTC (Sat) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (2 responses)

Also, if you happen to think this is something that happened in a far corner of the world, that does not concern (say) people living in the USA at all, who do you think a US pop culture icon like “Conan the barbarian” depicts? Its a fairly distorted and romanced view of what happened in the Black Sea corner of the world when Tatar/Mongol hosts lead by Gengis Khan’s heirs overwhelmed the previous Roman/Greek/Slavic states, before exhausting themselves trying to conquer the rest of Europe (and the fact Conan is depicted as a barbarian is itself a judgment on what those states and their populations were worth).

History resonates long and far and deeply. Colonial wrongs, while being deeply wrong (and remember that colonial states like Israël exist today) are part of this procees.

Robot

Posted Jun 20, 2020 13:50 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, I heard a while back that even TODAY, the discrimination between Normans and Anglo/Saxons is still clearly detectable. And I believe it's detectable even further back, between the Anglo/Saxons and the Welsh (which originally meant Briton).

Cheers,
Wol

Robot

Posted Jun 22, 2020 13:50 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

It's certainly distinguishable in surnames, even after a thousand years (mine is derived from Lecoq, a Norman French name if ever there was one), so it seems hard to imagine that it's not detectable genetically as well. Particularly given how little people used to move around (persistent genetic differences can be seen between the "average inhabitant" of places in the UK only fifty miles apart).

Of course, using the racists' arguments, the presence of a detectable genetic difference means that people from fifty miles away are *lesser beings* and oh wait I was born more than fifty miles away from where I'm living now oh dammit


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