Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 13:46 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
In reply to: Loaded terms in free software by mjg59
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

Mmmmm...

Or is it - like the Swastika - a perfectly acceptable thing that got taken over by a bunch of people we now consider to be nasty, for their own ends. In other words, a perfect example of rewriting history to expunge something that for most of its history was perfectly innocent ...

And how many Nazis actually WERE nasty people? And how many were ordinary decent people led astray and caught up in something they didn't see how they could avoid? And how many of the Nazis abhorrent practices were actually not that abnormal, even within their own living history?

(Not that I'm trying to excuse what happened, but much of it really was because they were merely the children of their times.) (My German ancestors were lucky to escape the Holocaust, and one of those very relatives is a Eugenicist ...)

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 18:55 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (8 responses)

Once a term has become indelibly associated with a particularly repugnant interpretation, it being "innocent" for most of its history is irrelevant - that's what it means now, and people who don't want to be associated with that interpretation use a different term.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 21:26 UTC (Fri) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link] (7 responses)

The Swastika is one good example of a symbol retaining the old good meaning for a significant percentage of all people (over a billion Hindus in India) despite the western people associate it with something horrible. Should we tell the Hindi to repaint their temples? To say a new repugnant association trumps the old association in any case is an oversimplification.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 21:36 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

It's not "repainting old temples" - nobody is proposing burning old documentation that mentions IDE master/slave distinction. It's not perpetuating this terminology in new code.

And India definitely should look at NOT using swastikas in new temples. Notwithstanding its current popularity among Indian nationalist extremists.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 23:17 UTC (Fri) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link] (5 responses)

> And India definitely should look at NOT using swastikas in new temples.

A billion people should abandon one of their cultural good-luck symbols? I'm lost for words.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 23:39 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

Contrary to what neo-Nazis say, swastika is not something super-special in Hindu or Buddhism. It's a regular symbol and there are plenty of alternatives.

And yes, Indians definitely should look at thier use of symbols that are offensive to OTHER billions of people.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 0:02 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

> And yes, Indians definitely should look at thier use of symbols that are offensive to OTHER billions of people.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The symbols are ancient, aren't the same and while products intended for export change it anyway to avoid the cultural crossfires, the symbol use is very widespread and not limited to just one country. It's not just temples either. It is in all sort of products including rugs, tiles and so forth

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 22, 2020 14:00 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

In the Western world it was a good-luck symbol too -- but *there* it wasn't a very important one, so its use declined almost to irrelevance long before the Nazis (a bunch of people who specialized in picking up obsolete stuff and using it to glorify horrible things) picked it up.

(A bunch of examples, some more impressive than others: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26369329).

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 15:24 UTC (Sat) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

And yes, Indians definitely should look at thier use of symbols that are offensive to OTHER billions of people.

This comment shows exactly why this whole naming issue boils down to power. Who has the power to force other people to change their language, their religion. It's not about decency, goodwill - it's all about power. I do think people have every right to be offended when somebody calls them in a way they don't prefer (be it a racial slur or something else). But I also do think they don't have the right to ban that word from unrelated conversations. For example if Stan wants to be called Loretta, that's perfectly fine. If he wants to forbid other people using the word Stan - now that's where the problem starts.

I do admit I was startled when I saw bunch of swastikas on a Kyoto tourist map - but it would be preposterous of me to demand that they change those symbols. I do think being decent means that I accept that other people are different than me and don't force my views on them.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 20:15 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> > And yes, Indians definitely should look at thier use of symbols that are offensive to OTHER billions of people.

> This comment shows exactly why this whole naming issue boils down to power.

And who exactly ARE those "other billions"? Or is that just hyperbole? There are one billion Indians, and even if we lump America and Europe together we don't even get close! Plus I bet a lot of non-Indians don't give a monkeys - I regularly see Swastikas over here (but yes, I am interested in WWII aircraft ...).

So the people for whom the swastika means "good luck" greatly exceeds the number of those offended, I expect...

Cheers,
Wol