Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 9:09 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Loaded terms in free software by farnz
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

Actually, Agincourt is a textbook case on why tech is not everything.

All other things being equal, the French went into Agincourt with enough war tech to win the battle easily. They lost because the English made good use of the tech they had, while the French leadership let glory-seeking feudal lords squander their heavy cavalry advantage in fruitless charges over a narrow muddy battlefield (and that in turn was more a result of a loaded political situation French side than clear mismanagement by the French commander).

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 9:20 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (8 responses)

The French had the volume of tech, but no significant technical advantage - the English had the same tech level. Now imagine that the French showed up with firearms, so they could kill the English archers at long range - so that they killed off the English troops before they could even notch an arrow.

With that level of advantage, the French would have won despite their incompetent leadership - and the only way for the English to win would be to also show up with firearms.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:52 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

Actually, I think you'll find our tech was "inferior" - for some definition of inferior.

Basically, it was longbows versus crossbows - the French crossbow was far superior in range and power. The problem for the French was that our longbows were the equivalent of a sem-automatic versus a muzzle loader - in the time it took for a crossbow to reload our archers could run the missing range and fire four or five arrows.

Incidentally, talking of firearms at Agincourt, did you know that one side apparently DID turn up with firearms?! According to my musket-toting friend, Agincourt was the first European battle at which they made an appearance.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 11:04 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (4 responses)

Our tech and the French tech were comparable but different - they had range and power, we had rate of fire.

Compare, however, our longbows or the French crossbows to a British Land Pattern Musket or Charleville Musket; if the French had been equipped with those instead of crossbows, and had sufficient ammunition, it wouldn't have been much of a fight; such weapons would be overwhelming.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 14:59 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Here's a nice video which goes over the Battle of Agincourt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDnKciXrmnc

I'd have to rewatch to remember enough to comment myself in this thread though.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 7:22 UTC (Sat) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link]

> if the French had been equipped with those instead of crossbows, and had sufficient ammunition, it wouldn't have been much of a fight; such weapons would be overwhelming.

We (French) lost in Agincourt but we learned our lesson and won the last battle of the Hundred Years' War with a "massive usage of field artillery".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Castillon

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 15:45 UTC (Sat) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (1 responses)

IIRC the French cavalry trampled its own crossbow men / put itself in their path in its urge to be the first to crush the English in a glorious cavalry charge.

So you can not even argue that crossbows were more or less effective than bows, muskets or rifles, they were not used to their potential in this battle.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 16:52 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

An early version of the Chaarge of the Light Brigade, but nowhere near as effective :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 13:44 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (1 responses)

The French had both the volume, tech and quality of weapons advantage.

They knew it and the English knew it. The English were so convinced of it they were in full retreat before the battle.

That’s why the battle had such an echo. The French managed to grasp defeat from the jaws of a sure victory (or the English managed to grasp victory from the jaws of a sure defeat, depending on which side you you look at it from).

Contemporaries were amazed at how things played out.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 13:46 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

Can also be taken as an example of how dire straits tend to focus human minds. The English knew they were in deep trouble, and behaved smartly. The French thought it was a sure thing, and behaved stupidly.