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Loaded terms in free software

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 2:54 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
In reply to: Loaded terms in free software by Jandar
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

> For example try to find a word which doesn't mean (possible phonetically) something sex related in some slang in some part of the world.

This is unrealistic. There are basically two options here:

1. The text will be translated (rare for source code, common for just about everything that a non-programmer might read or write).
2. The text will not be translated, and non-English speakers have to either learn English or give up on reading it. (Or replace "English" with whatever language it was written in.)

In case (1), the translator is responsible for selecting appropriate words in the target language. If a literal translation would be rude, they are expected to rephrase as necessary. This is a completely standard thing for translators to do; if you've ever read anything translated into English, somebody probably had to modify or rewrite some idiom, joke, or other cultural reference to fit the English language, and the same happens in reverse.

For example, many languages which are not English have a plural second person ("you") pronoun. In English, most plural second person pronouns are considered slang or colloquial (y'all, yinz, youse, etc.), but in many other languages, this is a standard word that anyone might use in any context. Similarly, many other languages distinguish between formal and informal "you," but English doesn't. Translators need to smooth out both of those differences, as well as many others. You might introduce honorifics (Mr., Ms., etc.) or other courtesy markers (sir, ma'am, etc.) for the formal "you" and discourtesy markers (e.g. addressing by first name, use of unrelated slang, etc.) for the informal "you." Plural "you" might be translated as "you guys," or a similar phrase, or it might just be written as "you" if the plural can be inferred from context.

(Incidentally, this is why translation is widely regarded as an AI-complete problem. You don't just have to parse and understand the literal meaning of each word, nor even the grammar of the entire sentence. You have to understand the overall effect that each sentence has on the reader, and endeavor to recreate that effect as closely as possible.)

In case (2), the non-English speaker is unlikely to have slang associations with the English phrase, because to them, English is a foreign language. If they do have such associations, they are likely trying to translate word-for-word and reassemble the sentence in their native tongue, which is usually not a very effective way of reading a foreign language. Of course, it's not ideal to tell these people "Go study English harder and you won't make that mistake," but there are limits of accommodation. If someone frequently misinterprets standard English as slang or colloquialisms that don't exist within the English-speaking community, then further study may be the only way around the problem.


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Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 7:08 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

This is why it is very dangerous, to ask a community of i18n tech people that speak i18n pidgin tech English, to police their word use.

That’s a job for history and linguistic experts, not for (potentially foreign) STEM people which have different historical and language context and are usually not interested in history and linguistic in the first place (or they would not have chosen a STEM specialization).

They will make mistakes and be lead astray by people who do have a political agenda, and did invest in history and linguistics to identify seemingly neutral terms that actually have a precise political orientation.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 8:05 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

> For example, many languages which are not English have a plural second person ("you") pronoun.

Actually, you've got it the wrong way round. "You" *is* the plural, the singular is the archaic "Thou". And German (though less strongly) is the same. The plural "Sie" is the default, and the singular "Du" is the familiar used amongst friends.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 17:47 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (6 responses)

"You" was the plural, long ago. It is not anymore. Language changes over time. Unfortunately, whenever it does so, lots of people object to those changes and insist that the old way was better, no matter what the change looks like. See for example the subject matter of the article.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 23:29 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

If "you" isn't the plural, what is?

We now have one word that is BOTH plural and singular, plus a word that is archaic singular. Saying we don't have a plural is just plain wrong.

(And as I said, German is going down the same path :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 8:18 UTC (Fri) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link]

> If "you" isn't the plural, what is?

"y'all"?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 9:00 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link] (1 responses)

youse, yiz, all y'all

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 12:26 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Which, to the best of my personal knowledge, NONE of those are used over here ... in other words they are parochial dialect, not universal grammar. Sorry. If I mean "you (plural)" I say "you" because that is the word I (and the people around me) have.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 23:14 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

"ye" is still in use in many parts of Ireland, and some parts of Great Britain.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:52 UTC (Fri) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]

> "You" was the plural, long ago. It is not anymore.

It is both. Like fish. Or moose. Or sheep. Or you.


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