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Loaded terms in free software

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 17:49 UTC (Wed) by ms-tg (subscriber, #89231)
In reply to: Loaded terms in free software by yokem_55
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

> it's better, more precise communication across the board.

I've also noticed this with database replication -- "leader and follower" seems much more accurate and precise than "master and slave" when describing the relationship of a replicated read-only database copy -- so I'm hopeful for the additional benefits you refer to as well!


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Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 18:38 UTC (Wed) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (31 responses)

leader = Führer = Hitler
Should we avoid leader, too?
It's sometimes very hard to find words that don't have special meaning to _some_ people.

I fully agree that we must stop using racist words, that refer to people in a racist way.
Here in Germany we used to call some kind of black candy 'Mohrenkopf' (= head of a black person).
https://www.dict.cc/?s=Mohrenkopf
Because it remotely looks like the head of a black person. That's racist, because it refers to people and because of the history of the word 'Mohr'.

But the 'master' branch in git or a 'blacklist/whitelist' do not refer to people in any way.

I'm fully Ok with avoiding such words in new developments.
Changing existing names sometimes has a huge cost and it is kind of like this: https://xkcd.com/927/

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 19:30 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (25 responses)

> leader = Führer = Hitler
> Should we avoid leader, too?
Perhaps in German, yes. It doesn't have these connotations in other languages.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 0:31 UTC (Thu) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link] (20 responses)

This whole discussion is about some subgroup of all people are offended by some words. Why is the subgroup "German" less eligible to voice a complaint about a sensitive word than the subgroup "some ancestor were slaves"?

It may be (I don't know the numbers) that a large enough group of people are deeply offended by master/slave that empathy would dictate to use other words. But to find other words which don't offend other people might not be simple.

For example try to find a word which doesn't mean (possible phonetically) something sex related in some slang in some part of the world.

Personally my favorite to replace master/slave is controller/subordinate, but who knows maybe somewhere subordinate is a deadly insult ;-)

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 0:57 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

> This whole discussion is about some subgroup of all people are offended by some words. Why is the subgroup "German" less eligible to voice a complaint about a sensitive word than the subgroup "some ancestor were slaves"?
Pure practicality. There will always be individuals and small groups triggered by everything, so a balance must be struck at some point. A group must at least be significant in some way for its objections to matter.

This is a balancing matter and it adjusts itself over time.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 7:56 UTC (Thu) by Jandar (subscriber, #85683) [Link] (6 responses)

If the groups size is a deciding factor, according wikkipedia the number of African Americans is only half as large as Germans.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 8:01 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (5 responses)

And? Are Germans overwhelmingly opposed to using some technical term?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 10:03 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

Germans don't translate "master"/"slave" (or most other computing terms in fact).

From my PoV the problem is not "loaded terms" but "tech slang that doesn't mean anything and can't reasonably be translated". White/blacklists are another example of this because we don't have *that* strong cultural good/bad associations with these colors.
So renaming them to writer/reader or allow/deny respectively, is actually helpful.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 20:13 UTC (Thu) by SPYFF (subscriber, #131114) [Link] (3 responses)

They have exactly as much right to do that.

---
Ferenc Fejes

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 20:42 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

Again, I'm not disputing this. If Germans massively oppose the term "leader" then we should start steering away from it. But as I understand (and German speakers can correct me), pretty much nobody is actually bothered by the term "leader".

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 20:49 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link] (1 responses)

Correct – we are not.

The English word for "Führer" isn't "leader" (or "guide" or …) any more; since WWII, it's "führer" (or "fuhrer" for umlaut-challenged people). You don't call the write side of your database that either.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 8:58 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

i'm not a german native speaker, but if i remember things correctly, anyone using the word “führer” as a translation for “leader” would do that in bad faith; especially that there's always “leiter” around the corner.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 15:25 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

Pure practicality. There will always be individuals and small groups triggered by everything, so a balance must be struck at some point. A group must at least be significant in some way for its objections to matter.

I feel like in the end it's about power. Some groups have the power to change the language, some don't.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 17:51 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> I feel like in the end it's about power. Some groups have the power to change the language, some don't.
Oh really? The currently dominant group has been changing language for millenia. It doesn't have any power whatsoever.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 2:54 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (9 responses)

> For example try to find a word which doesn't mean (possible phonetically) something sex related in some slang in some part of the world.

This is unrealistic. There are basically two options here:

1. The text will be translated (rare for source code, common for just about everything that a non-programmer might read or write).
2. The text will not be translated, and non-English speakers have to either learn English or give up on reading it. (Or replace "English" with whatever language it was written in.)

In case (1), the translator is responsible for selecting appropriate words in the target language. If a literal translation would be rude, they are expected to rephrase as necessary. This is a completely standard thing for translators to do; if you've ever read anything translated into English, somebody probably had to modify or rewrite some idiom, joke, or other cultural reference to fit the English language, and the same happens in reverse.

For example, many languages which are not English have a plural second person ("you") pronoun. In English, most plural second person pronouns are considered slang or colloquial (y'all, yinz, youse, etc.), but in many other languages, this is a standard word that anyone might use in any context. Similarly, many other languages distinguish between formal and informal "you," but English doesn't. Translators need to smooth out both of those differences, as well as many others. You might introduce honorifics (Mr., Ms., etc.) or other courtesy markers (sir, ma'am, etc.) for the formal "you" and discourtesy markers (e.g. addressing by first name, use of unrelated slang, etc.) for the informal "you." Plural "you" might be translated as "you guys," or a similar phrase, or it might just be written as "you" if the plural can be inferred from context.

(Incidentally, this is why translation is widely regarded as an AI-complete problem. You don't just have to parse and understand the literal meaning of each word, nor even the grammar of the entire sentence. You have to understand the overall effect that each sentence has on the reader, and endeavor to recreate that effect as closely as possible.)

In case (2), the non-English speaker is unlikely to have slang associations with the English phrase, because to them, English is a foreign language. If they do have such associations, they are likely trying to translate word-for-word and reassemble the sentence in their native tongue, which is usually not a very effective way of reading a foreign language. Of course, it's not ideal to tell these people "Go study English harder and you won't make that mistake," but there are limits of accommodation. If someone frequently misinterprets standard English as slang or colloquialisms that don't exist within the English-speaking community, then further study may be the only way around the problem.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 7:08 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

This is why it is very dangerous, to ask a community of i18n tech people that speak i18n pidgin tech English, to police their word use.

That’s a job for history and linguistic experts, not for (potentially foreign) STEM people which have different historical and language context and are usually not interested in history and linguistic in the first place (or they would not have chosen a STEM specialization).

They will make mistakes and be lead astray by people who do have a political agenda, and did invest in history and linguistics to identify seemingly neutral terms that actually have a precise political orientation.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 8:05 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

> For example, many languages which are not English have a plural second person ("you") pronoun.

Actually, you've got it the wrong way round. "You" *is* the plural, the singular is the archaic "Thou". And German (though less strongly) is the same. The plural "Sie" is the default, and the singular "Du" is the familiar used amongst friends.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 17:47 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (6 responses)

"You" was the plural, long ago. It is not anymore. Language changes over time. Unfortunately, whenever it does so, lots of people object to those changes and insist that the old way was better, no matter what the change looks like. See for example the subject matter of the article.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 23:29 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

If "you" isn't the plural, what is?

We now have one word that is BOTH plural and singular, plus a word that is archaic singular. Saying we don't have a plural is just plain wrong.

(And as I said, German is going down the same path :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 8:18 UTC (Fri) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link]

> If "you" isn't the plural, what is?

"y'all"?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 9:00 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link] (1 responses)

youse, yiz, all y'all

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 12:26 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Which, to the best of my personal knowledge, NONE of those are used over here ... in other words they are parochial dialect, not universal grammar. Sorry. If I mean "you (plural)" I say "you" because that is the word I (and the people around me) have.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 23:14 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

"ye" is still in use in many parts of Ireland, and some parts of Great Britain.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:52 UTC (Fri) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]

> "You" was the plural, long ago. It is not anymore.

It is both. Like fish. Or moose. Or sheep. Or you.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 6:06 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link] (2 responses)

We (=Germans) don't translate "leader" as "Führer", for obvious reasons. "Anführer" would be the closest acceptable choice, though depending on context there are others.

German IT slang has mostly used master/slave, untranslated. This is probably going to change, but I have no idea what we'll end up with.

Personally I'm not too fond of the whole leader/follower concept anyway and would rather use source/mirror or something along these lines.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 15:31 UTC (Thu) by intgr (subscriber, #39733) [Link] (1 responses)

> would rather use source/mirror or something

Many projects like PostgreSQL have adopted primary/replica.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 21:53 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

Git itself uses origin and clone. :)

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:36 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

Actually the word "vezér" (means leader) in Hungarian in political context does have negative connotations (so people tend to use it to describe the leader of the "other" parties). An other word for leader ("vezető") would actually be confusing in technical context because it means "matter that can lead electrical current". The solution (as usual since the 90s) is to not translate technical terms.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 20:10 UTC (Wed) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link] (2 responses)

> That's racist, because it refers to people and because of the history of the word 'Mohr'.

The history of the work Mohr (moor) is a good example of how different languages and populations may see the same word in two completely different ways. Moor was in Latin and Gree a generic geographic adjective (coming from Mauritania, at the time equivalent with coming from North Africa). It then evolved to mean Arab person from North Africa (like Othello was). Finally, in all languages spoken in south and central Europe (Italian, Spanish, Germany), it further evolved to mean "dark tanned" or "with dark hair". Nowadays saying that somebody is "moro" (Italian) or "moreno" (Spanish) just indicate that their skin or their hair is dark, a judgment-neutral adjective like "swarthy" or "brunette".

However, in the 60s the German-speaking world started using the word "Mohr" with discriminatory intents and it is now treated similarly to "the N word" and rarely used.

Since I learned about this, I cannot stop asking myself: will one day German-speaking people ask Italian-speaking or Spanish-speaking people to stop using a word because in their language it is no longer acceptable?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 23:02 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

What happens when we then throw the English word "moor" into the mix? Dunno the origin of the word, but it has nothing to do with either people or colour, being a remote upland often boggy or covered in heather.

(And I've always thought of Moor (as in a person) as being an archaic word for some one from Northern Africa especially Morocco.)

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 23:17 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

Merriam-Webster says* that the lowercase noun is of unrelated etymology:

- moor, meaning a bog or other infertile land, came from Old High German (muor) via Old English (mōr).
- moor, meaning to tie off a ship or boat, came from Middle English (moren), and is "akin to" Middle Dutch (meren, maren).
- Moor, meaning a person from North Africa, came from Latin (Maurus) via Anglo-French and Middle English (More). It originally referred to Mauretania.**

TL;DR: When in doubt, blame the French.

* https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moor
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauretania

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 0:54 UTC (Thu) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

"leader = Führer = Hitler
Should we avoid leader, too?"

No, we should avoid "Führer". As, in fact, I have observed people tend to do, both inside and outside Germany, except when it's unavoidable in referring to Hitler in context. As Wikipedia puts it, "In Germany, the isolated word "Führer" is usually avoided in political contexts, due to its intimate connection with Nazi institutions and with Hitler personally."

The German word is and was widely used outside of Germany both at the time and since then - it was not translated as a capitalized "Leader" or anything like that.

If, say, a Jewish group were to say "we really find the word 'leader' uncomfortable because of this", that might be worth looking at. But AFAIK, none has. I suspect that if someone in a US political party decided to declare themselves its "Führer", though, folks would have something to say about *that*, and they'd be right.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 13:55 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

> leader = Führer

I would consider this a bad translation.

Nowadays, one would translate "leader" as "Anführer" oder "Anführerin", maybe as "Führungsperson", but not as "Führer". (Except, if the story is about the AFD Flügel, but that's the whole point of context and cultural sensitive translations.)

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 7:44 UTC (Fri) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]

> "leader and follower" seems much more accurate and precise than "master and slave" when describing the relationship of a replicated read-only database copy

...while also bringing unsolicited associations with cults. Thanks but no thanks. (Or are you going to diminish the pain of people who had been in destructive cults and would like less of that bullshit in their lives? I mean the actual firsthand people living today, not even their great-grand-descendants.)

"Primary" and "replica", or "primary" and "standby", are more technical terms, more accurate, less anthropomorphic.


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