Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 17:15 UTC (Wed) by tlamp (subscriber, #108540)
Parent article: Loaded terms in free software

> "blacklist" are a hurtful reminder of the inequities that persist in our society, we need to accept that as the truth and act upon it. Etymological discussions on what, say, "master" really means may be interesting, but they miss the point and are irrelevant to this discussion.

The do not miss the point as much as just tagging every word with "black" or "white", or another colour of choice, resembling possibly some group of humans in some minds in a bad way, even if the have nothing to do with it.

For example Blacklist, it has "black" in it so naturally it has to come from so racist background, but it just has nothing to do with slaves, racism, ... whatsoever:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#Origins_of_the...

> ... and, hopefully, some sort of meaningful social progress is made

Yeah, hopefully for real. But it does not happen for sure with branding some words as bad and eradicating the use of words with "black", white, "master", etc. in them.

People need, IMO, to learn that talking about humans, living things and objects are just different thing and that the subject is the one which is affected by the terms used on them, not some bystander.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 18:07 UTC (Wed) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link] (7 responses)

That's one valid view. The other valid view is that "blacklist", at a time when Black people are still effectively blacklisted by way of, well, being black, has become a loaded term. Factual correctness doesn't trump cultural sensitivity; to expect it to do so by fiat is folly.

In any case, allow/deny is more descriptive anyway, esp. for people from a different cultural context, e.g. locations where white is the color of death. Also not the intended connotation, is it?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 14:34 UTC (Thu) by pj (subscriber, #4506) [Link] (3 responses)

>Factual correctness doesn't trump cultural sensitivity; to expect it to do so by fiat is folly.

Try building a bridge based on cultural sensitivity. I'm pretty sure the one built on factual correctness will stand up better.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 15:46 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

Human beings and their emotions are not bridges or computers or whatever.

Try using factual correctness to get even one of those right(eous) guys out there to admit that racial discrimination even exists. (I leave the equivalent left-ish argument as an exercise to the reader.)

Let's see how far you get with that.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 18:01 UTC (Thu) by kmweber (guest, #114635) [Link] (1 responses)

Does a bridge's structural integrity depend on the specific names we've given for its component parts?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:48 UTC (Fri) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link]

In fact, they can, if those specific names lead to miscommunication between subcontractors.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 1:42 UTC (Sat) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (2 responses)

Factual correctness DOES trump cultural sensitivity when that cultural sensitivity is complete nonsense that people are just trying to be offended by to virtue signal to others how woke they are.

And by the way, please don't use the word 'trump' as a verb outside of the context of US politics, it's become highly charged and offensive blah blah blah

You see where this goes? Letting woke American Twitter idiots decide what words we're allowed to use is a terrible idea

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 6:38 UTC (Sat) by comex (subscriber, #71521) [Link]

In fact, the battle between factual correctness and cultural sensitivity is a false dichotomy. It can be factually correct that the word didn't originally mean X, but also factually correct that people interpret it as connected to X, and factually correct that it causes discomfort.

After all, words change meaning over time. If you accused someone of behaving "just like a computer", they would rightly interpret that as an accusation of being machine-like; it would do no good to argue that the word "computer" originally referred to an occupation.

That said, I challenge the premise. True, the term "black list" did not come to exist because of racism. But that doesn't mean it's unconnected. The causation is the other way around: the cultural notion of 'white = good, black = bad' reflected in the term likely helped shape the development of modern European racism. It may not be entirely coincidental that both "black list" and scientific racism had their origins in the mid-1600s. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#Enlighten...

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 13:42 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> And by the way, please don't use the word 'trump' as a verb outside of the context of US politics, it's become highly charged and offensive blah blah blah

Yes trumps do stink :-)

(For those who don't speak English - "to trump" is slang for "to fart")

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 17, 2020 18:58 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (11 responses)

The etymology of a term, I think, is less important than its current meaning and connotation. I support getting rid of terms like "master/slave" and "blacklist/whitelist", especially when the replacements are more precise and accurate.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 21:51 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

I support getting rid of terms like "master/slave". I don't support getting rid of the *word* "master" through an implicit assumption of bad faith.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 10:23 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (9 responses)

For plugs and connectors (and screws, etc.) we use male/female (or in my native language, father/mother) types, obviously based on their similarities to penis and vagina (both in shape and in function (i.e. penis goes into vagina)). Now it turns out there are people who consider themselves male, but don't have a penis. Similarly some people consider themselves female, but not have a vagina. Should we replace these terms because they might offend somebody? Do we have a better term?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 19, 2020 11:55 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (3 responses)

Innie and outie? Plug and socket?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 8:27 UTC (Sat) by jafd (subscriber, #129642) [Link] (2 responses)

Now, LGA is a "socket" but has pins. You don't "plug" stuff into it.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 8:53 UTC (Sat) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> Now, LGA is a "socket" but has pins. You don't "plug" stuff into it.

I thought an LGA socket was a bit of plastic and metal that was integrated in a motherboard, and which you inserted an LGA package into.
I see it as only a small stretch to suggest that you plug the LGA package into the LGA socket.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 14:47 UTC (Sat) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

So LGA is non-binary. It can be a plug or a socket. But does it actually matter?

With respect to the actual contacts, it's a plug, but with respect to the package as a whole, it's a socket or a receptacle.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 24, 2020 8:09 UTC (Wed) by mvdwege (guest, #113583) [Link]

I don't know. Have people actually complained? And if yes, in enough numbers that this appears to be a systemic problem?

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jul 27, 2020 5:33 UTC (Mon) by Shabbyx (guest, #104730) [Link] (3 responses)

IIUC, male/female is the sex, man/woman/etc is the gender. I don't think anyone has a problem with the former.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jul 28, 2020 12:41 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (2 responses)

And we can do better. Plug, socket. Words half a millennium old, unambiguously referring to machine fixtures connecting together.

Less bikeshedding, more sending the likes of ESR into hilarious public tantrums.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jul 28, 2020 14:12 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

This is not very helpful with, e.g., XLR audio cables, which have a “male” plug (with prongs) at one end and a “female” plug (with holes) at the other.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jul 29, 2020 1:42 UTC (Wed) by kjpye (subscriber, #81527) [Link]

So how would you describe a DB25 connector -- there are male sockets and female plugs? The plug/socket terminology refers to the overall shape of the connector, and the male/female refers to the individual pins.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 5:52 UTC (Thu) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (2 responses)

Real progress, for non-discriminated groups (of which there is basicaly just one), comes from coming out of white privilege an doing what our Editor said: starting to listen. My initial reaction to renaming the master branch was also negative, especially since my language does not have all of those connotations, but then it's not for me to decide what's best for everybody on pure theoretical grounds in context of me never being discriminated.

As an aside, I've always been a little uncofortable with how the English language likes to "kill" things. "Kill the light" and such :)

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 18, 2020 21:52 UTC (Thu) by willy (subscriber, #9762) [Link]

I'm a little uncomfortable with d_genocide() and would fully support its renaming.

Loaded terms in free software

Posted Jun 20, 2020 2:43 UTC (Sat) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link]

>Real progress, for non-discriminated groups (of which there is basicaly just one), comes from coming out of white privilege an doing what our Editor said: starting to listen.

But the people that are talking are just *other white people* virtue signalling about how 'woke' they are.