Debian discusses Discourse

Posted Apr 18, 2020 12:44 UTC (Sat) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604)
In reply to: Debian discusses Discourse by smurf
Parent article: Debian discusses Discourse

I'm not saying it fixes a culture, obviously if a large portion of a community lands in your ignore/block list then it's not the right community for you. I still think it's far more efficient and less stressful than to try and get individuals removed.

Debian discusses Discourse

Posted Apr 18, 2020 18:11 UTC (Sat) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (2 responses)

That's why I characterized it as a barrier to entry. Sure, you *can* block people one at a time, and tell yourself that they're outliers. You *can* build up a thick skin and get really good at ignoring barbs. But the need to do those things makes it harder for new people to get involved in the community.

> I still think it's far more efficient and less stressful than to try and get individuals removed.

I have never "tried to get individuals removed." I have, on plenty of occasions, pressed the equivalent of the "report" button and thereafter ignored the person. It's not my problem, it's the moderators' problem. This is another cultural difference between forums and mailing lists: Forums have a much greater tolerance for the moderators doing their jobs. Even in the thread linked in this very story, you can see a moderator and a member of the community arguing back and forth about the former's authority to politely ask a third user to stop making references to Hitler. On a typical forum, such an argument would be quite ridiculous.

Debian discusses Discourse

Posted Apr 18, 2020 19:02 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> That's why I characterized it as a barrier to entry. Sure, you *can* block people one at a time, and tell yourself that they're outliers. You *can* build up a thick skin and get really good at ignoring barbs. But the need to do those things makes it harder for new people to get involved in the community.

How is this phenomenon unique to email or mailing lists?

> I have, on plenty of occasions, pressed the equivalent of the "report" button and thereafter ignored the person. It's not my problem, it's the moderators' problem.

Yeah, "make it someone else's problem" is great for an individual until you're on the receiving end of someone deliberately reporting your posts because they don't like what you have to say, and that "someone else" is a three strikes algorithm that perma-bans you before you have a chance to object.

(Or if you're the one having to administer or moderate the forum/mailing list/whatever, and the professional troll you just blocked turns their sights to you and your family instead. Welcome to the jungle.)

Debian discusses Discourse

Posted Apr 22, 2020 1:21 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

> How is this phenomenon unique to email or mailing lists?

Because:

- In a forum, a deleted message is gone. In a mailing list, a message deleted from the server has already been delivered to everyone's inbox, and normally cannot be recalled.
- Mailing lists usually lack a one-click report button or link. They *might* have an abuse address, but typing out a message justifying yourself creates a lot more friction than just hitting a button.
- Off-list communication is completely impossible to effectively moderate. Forums need not expose a user's email address, typically require registration, and if necessary can implement IP blocking etc., so that their private messages are a lot harder to abuse.
- Mailing list users, in my experience, tend to be a lot more suspicious of content moderation than forum users, which makes it harder for list moderators to use the limited tools they have.

> Yeah, "make it someone else's problem" is great for an individual until you're on the receiving end of someone deliberately reporting your posts because they don't like what you have to say, and that "someone else" is a three strikes algorithm that perma-bans you before you have a chance to object.

I've never heard of a forum designed that way. Can you provide a specific, real-world example?

> (Or if you're the one having to administer or moderate the forum/mailing list/whatever, and the professional troll you just blocked turns their sights to you and your family instead. Welcome to the jungle.)

Moderators are not new users, so I would characterize this as out of scope. Moderation will always be difficult. But as explained above, a forum does provide the moderator with more powerful tools and a greater shield of pseudonymity, if it comes to that.