Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 14, 2020 14:15 UTC (Sat) by zenaan (guest, #3778)
In reply to: Handling attacks on a community by rweikusat2
Parent article: Handling attacks on a community

Codes of Conduct (CoC) have become expected, imposed and as we see, enforced.

Many folks today appear to be what is colloquially termed "snowflakes" - so emotionally fragile that even giving a (any, whatsoever) trigger warning, is considered itself "triggering" and therefore subject to CoC censorship, etc., see e.g. https://reason.com/2018/07/29/triggered-by-trigger-warnings/

This is depressing to see - from Linus Torvalds and the Linux Foundation, to Git in recent times, to Richard Stallman (RMS), founder of the Free Software Foundation (USA) being "resigned" by the so-called "FSF community", and of course Debian and most other FLOSS "communities".

It is true - holding strictly to certain principles such as freedom of speech (modulo "that which is not actually unlawful"), is not easy, likely not possible, for a "community" that wants to be maximally inclusive of humans with fragile egos and/or fragile emotional natures).

So as humans we are different, with different needs and different wants. "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Staunch free speech upholders want rigorous and robust discussions, with the right to, at least sometimes, offend the "wilting flower" types.

These two types of communities are to some degree not compatible.

Either bend the knee as Linus Torvalds has done, and to some extent RMS, or advocate for your preferred environment, or create your preferred environment - but to attack a so called "community" which has, by the authority of those in authority in that community, expelled you from that community, is probably a fruitless and counter productive exercise.

Embrace your truth, and find others of like spirit/temperament, and create that which you are moved to create.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 14, 2020 16:15 UTC (Sat) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

What is fascinating to observe in all of this is how "fragile" some of the people complaining about codes of conduct seem to be, to the point that "broflake" looks like a perfectly reasonable coinage for describing them.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 14, 2020 17:43 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (18 responses)

> "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear.
Just like you crying here, begging for CoCs to disappear? What a broflake.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 15, 2020 1:54 UTC (Sun) by zenaan (guest, #3778) [Link] (17 responses)

>> "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear.
> Just like you crying here, begging for CoCs to disappear? What a broflake.

Not what I said, but meh...

So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)?

It is of course your right to agree with such treatment of various founders, as we have witnessed a fair bit of in recent times. Good lessons for future founders (to enshrine their "broflake" power CoCs before the snowflakes have a chance to usurp power and damage the founders).

Long term, I believe this is a functional parting of the ways between humans with different preferred ways of being in this world.

The CoC for those of robust temperament, is a different CoC to those of snowflake temperament.

Snowflakes are entitled to their CoC, "broflakes" and those who prefer more freedom in their communication environment, are entitled to their CoC - although I have yet to see a broflake CoC in writing :)

In the mean time we continue in this time of turmoil where unspoken expectations of some, in some cases many, have begun to be put first into CoCs and then into force, and this clash of expectations and turmoil is made public. Over, and over, again.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the "broflakes", those of robust emotional temperament, though evidently a minority, are inherently pioneers, willing and able to blaze new trails which few others see or would dare, until the land is cleared and first settlements built.

Most are settlers or homies.

'Tis the way of things.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 15, 2020 4:25 UTC (Sun) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

See you later, then...

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 15, 2020 5:58 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

> So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)?
Absolutely. People should learn to behave like decent human beings, and not like entitled brats.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 15, 2020 11:25 UTC (Sun) by zenaan (guest, #3778) [Link] (5 responses)

>> So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)?

> Absolutely. People should learn to behave like decent human beings, and not like entitled brats.

In other words:

Cyberax: "Richard Matthew Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and staunch catalyst, visionary, upholder and all around grandfather for the entire FLOSS/Libre movement for ~30 years now, behaved or spoke, in my ever so high opinion, "like an entitled brat," and so therefore (I say) it is a great thing that he was "resigned" from his FSF."

So ... speaking of "entitled brats" ...

["Mummy told me I am fully entitled to be free from all confronting words by anyone forever." - You know, that's not a bad definition of "snowflake", not bad at all ... we shall be making use of that :D]

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 15, 2020 15:33 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (4 responses)

Please make use of it elsewhere; we really do not need more trolling here.

Thank you.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 16, 2020 1:12 UTC (Mon) by mebrown (subscriber, #7960) [Link]

Nice. Thank you. This is why I pay for my subscription to LWN.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 16, 2020 11:13 UTC (Mon) by beagnach (guest, #32987) [Link] (1 responses)

> Please make use of it elsewhere; we really do not need more trolling here.

Thanks

Seems to be a rather higher incidence of trolling in the last week or two... what's with that?

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 19, 2020 3:25 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Like most of the population currently, they're grounded.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 30, 2020 4:54 UTC (Mon) by elvis_ (guest, #63935) [Link]

I found his post quite insightful, he at least took the time to explain where he was coming from, which was a lot more than the people who replied to him did. All they did was snipe and you supported them. You might think you are inclusive, but to some people you are not.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 16, 2020 4:00 UTC (Mon) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (3 responses)

This appears to be the broflake CoC:

https://nocodeofconduct.com/

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 16, 2020 5:57 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

This kind of non-CoC can actually work in small-to-medium projects. Most people can just stick to technical issues and keep discussions professional.

But it breaks down in large projects when a broflake decides that somebody is oppressing them.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 16, 2020 13:41 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

I hate to have to say this but ... name-calling and such aren't really better just because $WE do it, for whatever value of $WE. Let's try to avoid that, please?

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 17, 2020 2:09 UTC (Tue) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

Apologies, both sides of the debate appeared to embrace the word in question. It was a mistake for me to continue use of the term.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 17, 2020 11:12 UTC (Tue) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] (4 responses)

"knee-bending", FWIW, is a serious red-flag to me that the author is drinking the kool aid.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 19, 2020 3:28 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (3 responses)

And as any good engineer will concur, better to bend than to be brittle.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 19, 2020 20:50 UTC (Thu) by andrejp (guest, #47396) [Link] (2 responses)

Negative. As any good engineer will concur, the above is a generalization. The actual preferred properties very much depend on the purpose and project at hand - neither is "better" per se.

On topic though, having admittedly read only a little bit of the presented material, I do anyway find the so called "offender" articulate, intelligent, capable and disposed to reason and arguments. People don't go to such extreme lengths and cause so much noise for nothing, much less out of some childish malice. Usually it's because some deeply held and fundamental value has been profoundly violated. To me it doesn't seem like a bit of ego was bruised. It seems more like a crusade.

Having also read some of the related material outlined (such as the mentioned blog post https://www.preining.info/blog/2018/09/sharp-did-it-again/), I can't say I disagree with his position either. Much of the "group" response comes across as passive aggressive at best, glossing over the issues presented and ignoring the arguments, and after failing at that, attempting to silence and ban the dissenters presenting uncomfortable opinions. Which is exactly the argument that the so called "offender" seems to present. And which, at least to me, seems like it extracted exactly the kind of response the group got from this individual. :)

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 20, 2020 8:29 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

> It seems more like a crusade.

My leisure reading includes the search results returned by canlii.ca for the single search term "vexatious", which yields a fascinating selection of material (which is occasionally quite unpleasant to read; those of a sensitive disposition might wish to avoid reading the cases where individual parties are referred to by initials instead of a surname).

Observing this fine gentleman reminds me of the former schoolteacher who, having been unsuccessful in pursuing his labour dispute in the province where his former employer is situated and he was living at the time of the matter under dispute, and then in the Federal courts, has attempted to relitigate the matter not only in the province he now inhabits, but in most of the others, many or even all of which he has never inhabited (and, obviously, his former employer has no presence in).

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 21, 2020 0:11 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

> People don't go to such extreme lengths and cause so much noise for nothing, much less out of some childish malice.

You have a lot more faith left in humanity than I do. The joe-jobbing was where it crossed the line for me.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 17, 2020 12:13 UTC (Tue) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link]

One of the things RMS is accused of is treating women as potential dates instead of potential colleagues. Had he been gay and openly treated men as potential dates instead of as potential colleagues, he would have gotten himself ostracized; at no point in the last hundred years have gay men in the US been able to get away with hitting indiscriminately on other men. In fact, while RMS was in college, homosexuality was still illegal in Massachusetts. I imagine that the Free Software community has only gotten more tolerant of gay men hitting on people at conferences and the like.

Which is the problem with the idea of "snowflakes". People have always been "so emotionally fragile"; if you don't want to talk about gay panic, we could talk about how people freaked out about everything vaguely Twin Towers related after 9/11, including a Starbucks ad with two drinks, a dragonfly, and the logo "Collapse into cool". There's a serious discussion here, but that can't start so long as people are acting like "snowflakes" are something new, nor if you use a term also used by people who would criminalize flag burning and blasphemy.

> "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Staunch free speech upholders want rigorous and robust discussions, with the right to, at least sometimes, offend the "wilting flower" types.

Rigorous and robust discussion doesn't involve saying things like "Snowflakes want momma to make all the bad words disappear". It involves understanding the positions of other people and treating them seriously. In my experiences, rigorous and robust discussions often get derailed by free speech, and having a code of conduct can keep every discussion from disintegrating into an argument about someone's bête noire or some dead horse.

And no, many free speech upholders simply want to shitpost and cause offense and disruption, or push their own goals with no concern about anyone else.

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 17, 2020 19:41 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

> Codes of Conduct (CoC) have become expected, imposed and as we see, enforced.
>
> Many folks today appear to be what is colloquially termed "snowflakes"

So not wanting people's names to be used in forged, widely-distributed public emails that claim you said something that you did not in fact say and that you may well disagree with is acceptable behaviour to you?!

Handling attacks on a community

Posted Mar 17, 2020 19:42 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

(Um. I double-negatived that up rather badly, didn't I.)