Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Posted Oct 8, 2019 4:55 UTC (Tue) by cert_meter (guest, #127372)In reply to: Richard Stallman and the GNU project by flussence
Parent article: Richard Stallman and the GNU project
> It's all angry little anonymous throwaway accounts at the bottom of public website comment sections.
What a disingenuous argument. When punishment for wrongthink or defending the wrong person is being misrepresented by the press, ejected from your communities and ultimately losing your job and your reputation, people tend to be cautious about leaking their identity.
I would love to comment on this under my real name, but I have a lot to lose doing so. Still I don't want the self-righteous authoritarians to think that their view is adopted or respected by actual contributors to free software, so here it is, for what it's worth.
Posted Oct 10, 2019 21:39 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (5 responses)
As you should. And you know damn well it would be deserved.
Think about why your belief about having a divine right to perv on people in the workplace would have consequences, and why — despite knowing that — you're still trying to push it on others from the safety of anonymous cowardice.
Posted Oct 13, 2019 13:04 UTC (Sun)
by cert_meter (guest, #127372)
[Link] (4 responses)
I don't think I should and I know no such thing.
> Think about why your belief about having a divine right to perv on people in the workplace would have consequences, and why — despite knowing that — you're still trying to push it on others from the safety of anonymous cowardice.
This comment is a very good illustration of why one should stay anonymous when standing up to a SJW mob. Without knowing anything of me you have built a strawman which you are now tearing out in good conscience, without any concern of whether my position is accurately represented or not.
Well, my opinion of RMS is much more nuanced than you portray, and I absolutely do not believe that he should get a free pass to "perv" on people, whether that's what he actually did or not. Not that my opinion on this would matter: had my name been visible, people might already be distorting things even further on social media and looking at ways to ruin my life.
Which by the way is exactly what happened to RMS. His words have been transformed into blatant lies (take for instance the disgraceful Vice coverage or the ZDNet article saying he "defended Epstein behavior") and then used to massacre him online and cancel him from the movement he initiated. Just so that a few malevolent narcissists can claim his scalp on Twitter.
Stallman was defending a deceased friend who is publicly accused of a very serious crime for which strong evidence of wrongdoing should be required. The evidence is lacking since the victim has not even confirmed that the act Minsky was being accused of actually took place. Stallman tried to explain the nuance to people completely devoid of the ability to understand it, and then stupidity and malice ensued.
It's as if some people are unable or unwilling to parse a sentence properly, and got triggered into bullying mode when they saw "victim" and "willing" in the same sentence. I expect to see that kind of despicable behavior on Twitter, but in LWN comments it is more disappointing.
Regarding anonymous comments, which seem to concern you, well I would, without any sarcasm, suggest that you limit the scope of your answer to what your interlocutor actually says. Then maybe, as they are not systematically demonized for slightly diverging from an arbitrary narrative, maybe then the climate will cool down enough that they will be willing to introduce themselves more formally to have more productive discussions.
Posted Oct 13, 2019 13:21 UTC (Sun)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (3 responses)
I know you specifically are not saying this elsewhere in this thread (hmm…at least under the handle here; lots of young accounts here), but I've noticed correlation with your position and the one I'll compare it to here.
How do you see this stance meshing with the arguments that anonymous complaints against Stallman are useless when using as (at least) circumstantial evidence for his behavior? Under that stance, if those should be ignored, shouldn't you as well? If you should be listened to from behind your veil, should those not also be at least taken into account (or at least have similar weight)?
If anonymity is "required" on one "side", is it not acceptable for others to use the same mechanisms?
I'm also not of the opinion that anonymity be impossible either before anyone suggests that as the case.
Posted Oct 13, 2019 15:16 UTC (Sun)
by cert_meter (guest, #127372)
[Link] (2 responses)
I don't agree that complaints against Stallman are useless because they are anonymous. If the evidence is sufficiently solid, then the identity (or anonymity) of the person denouncing the fact is of no importance. This is basically how whistleblowers protection works: their identity may be concealed, but they still have the full burden of providing the evidence of what they are assessing.
In the case of the complaints against Stallman, most of the people reporting awkward anecdotes actually did it under their real name. And why wouldn't they? Now that the beast is down, they can only get social virtue points by doing so ("wow, you're so brave for speaking out!"). Even though these anecdotes are rather thin to justify his current crucifixion.
I have yet to see strong evidence that Stallman is a genuine pervert or a harasser. All the testimonies I have seen describe one-time encounters where he awkwardly asked for a date, got rejected, and never mentioned it again. For sure, this is awkward, insensitive even. But a 30 seconds interaction like this does not constitute harassment, no more that it makes him a perv. All I see is a clumsy and lonely man, and that is not a crime.
The picture of the sign on his door also dramatically lacks context. Have you noticed that there is only one picture of that sign circulating? Had I come across this, I would surely have taken a picture. Why is there only one documented picture then? Do we know how long it was displayed? Was it written by Stallman himself, or by a colleague who wanted to make a joke, and then took it off after a one day or two? As far as I know nobody can clarify this, but people are prone to jumping to conclusions very quickly when they believe righteousness is on their side.
Note also that these complaints have nothing to do with my point in this thread: that RMS' words have been misrepresented, and that this misrepresentation is now considered as truth in the public eye, unfairly damaging his reputation and leading to his resignation from the MIT and FSF. And also, that the same thing can happen to you if you WrongThink in public.
I think the evidence for this is rather self-explanatory, and knowing my name would not make it any stronger. I don't want to pollute LWN with links to garbage, but please look up the articles I mention earlier and tell me whether a journalist worthy of the title would say that Stallman "defended Epstein behavior". Not to also mention the original piece on Medium written by a former student whose cluelessness is despairing (never heard of Stallman before, but let's ask for his removal!). And of course there is the unavoidable Twitter rabble.
Does Stallman's lack of social awareness and tendency to say whatever he thinks without a filter make him fit to represent the FSF? That's up for discussion, and for what it's worth my opinion is that his succession is overdue. But should he be subjected to this online assassination and humiliation, and negation of his life's work? Absolutely not, and if I cannot say it under my real identity, well I will say it anyway.
Paul Graham wrote a good essay a few years ago named "What you can't say", which provides a good lens to understand this kind of online bullying, and will make you feel better if you happen to entertain a few thoughts that most of your peers would consider suppressive.
Posted Oct 16, 2019 3:34 UTC (Wed)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
> I don't agree that complaints against Stallman are useless because they are anonymous.
OK, that's good to know.
> All I see is a clumsy and lonely man, and that is not a crime.
Who has said it's a crime?
> But should he be subjected to this online assassination and humiliation, and negation of his life's work?
I'd say the first is a bit extreme, but not too inaccurate description. I'd call it more along the lines of "his behavior has been problematic for quite a while and it took until now for the stresses to break such that people were willing to speak openly about it". The second has been happening for quite a while already (the foot video primarily). With this, I'm not seeing much humiliation going on. Or rather, I don't see anyone doing Ralph from The Simpsons "ha ha" kind of stuff. Maybe there's some more subtle things going on, but I avoid Twitter and those echo chambers.
Negation? Who has called for tearing down Free Software? The FSF? GNU? GPL (other than those who have been doing *that* for years anyways)? EMACS? GCC? I don't see anyone pulling an "I quit" fit from free software because of this. Have you?
Posted Oct 16, 2019 19:30 UTC (Wed)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Oct 12, 2019 7:09 UTC (Sat)
by CycoJ (guest, #70454)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 12, 2019 13:41 UTC (Sat)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Posted Oct 13, 2019 13:10 UTC (Sun)
by cert_meter (guest, #127372)
[Link]
Please stop misrepresenting what people say. I don't think anybody here considers that joint statement to be part of a lynchmob, and if someone does, then that is not my position anyway. The GNU project is free to seek new leadership if it feels the current one is inadequate and at least those maintainers uncomfortable with Stallman did speak out without distorting the facts or calling him names. Which is not what happened on other less civilized parts of the internet.
> When asked about putting your name under your views you respond by saying you fear repercussions (the big bad world). I wonder who is the lynch mob and who are the snowflakes.
Since you're wondering, let me help you: the lynch mob are the ones who are lynching, and the ones hiding are those being lynched.
And Stallman, with all his flaws, is still the victim of an injustice.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Keep a close eye on GNU Guile. The floodgates may be about to open.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
When asked about putting your name under your views you respond by saying you fear repercussions (the big bad world). I wonder who is the lynch mob and who are the snowflakes.
Regardless of who it is, can we please see an end to the name-calling now? This isn't doing anybody any good, to say the least.
Let's stop this here.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project