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Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 1:40 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: Richard Stallman and the GNU project by mathstuf
Parent article: Richard Stallman and the GNU project

> Destruction? Tearing down the GPL, the FSF, and his projects would be closer to that. I don't see that happening here.

Tear down the man first, the ideals he promoted will follow.


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Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 1:50 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (8 responses)

You let me know when that happens and I'll be fighting for his free software ideals there. Probably not as vigorously nor from such an absolutist stance, but not everyone can be as devoted to a singular cause as him (or any leader/pioneer of such things, really).

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:17 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (5 responses)

RMS's reputation is being trashed here. Both personally and professionally (since the allegedly bad behaviour ocurred in "professional" contexts).

Every mention of RMS outside of "true believer" circles will end up with "disgraced" in the same sentence. Every time something he wrote gets cited to support an argument why Free Software is a GoodThing(tm), it will get countered with "why should we trust anything that kiddie-raper-apologist and serial-discomforter-of-women had to say?" Especially in conservative corporate contexts where the mear appearance of impropriety gets associations dropped like hot potatoes?

So, yes, RMS stepping down from the FSF was utterly necessary if the FSF was to survive. It's probable that stepping down from GNU will also become necessary. Nobody's going to hire him as a speaker (that whole "disgraced" thing). I'm having a hard time seeing what avenues he has left to support himself. Wal*Mart greeter?

Sure, there's good arguments to be made that RMS should have passed the Free Software leadership torch to someone(s) else. But that ship has sailed, and RMS is being summarily ejected and everyone that is saying so much as "hold on, slow up" is getting actively tarred with the same "kiddie-raper-apologist-apologist" brush. What I find dismaying here is just how much of the Free Software "community" is piling on, and in the process, actively helping the barbarians dismantle the foundations of the entire Free Software movement.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:38 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

> actively helping the barbarians dismantle the foundations of the entire Free Software movement.

That's silly. Regardless of the merits of defenestrating Stallman, the Free Software movement is much too broad and deep at this point to be significantly affected by his fate. Indeed, if the Free Software movement to this day depended on Stallman to that extent, then his career truly would have been a failure.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:58 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> ...the Free Software movement is much too broad and deep at this point to be significantly affected by his fate.

While I hope you are correct (and in the long run, I think you will be), in the shorter term this will be additional ammunition for those who seek to undermine support for free software. (It was already a bit of an uphill battle, this just makes it harder...)

Now if you'd said "open source" instead of "free software" I'd agree without reservation, because from that perspective RMS has long been irrelevant except perhaps as a boogeyman.

> Indeed, if the Free Software movement to this day depended on Stallman to that extent, then his career truly would have been a failure.

...Folks who change the world rarely end up with a good personal outcome for their efforts.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:50 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

> Every mention of RMS outside of "true believer" circles will end up with "disgraced" in the same sentence. Every time something he wrote gets cited to support an argument why Free Software is a GoodThing(tm), it will get countered with "why should we trust anything that kiddie-raper-apologist and serial-discomforter-of-women had to say?" Especially in conservative corporate contexts where the mear appearance of impropriety gets associations dropped like hot potatoes?

Thomas Jefferson was a slave holder. Many of the ancient Greeks were as well. We'd do well to ignore their takes on matters of slavery. That doesn't mean their other views on topics are useless. Indeed, we'd probably have to ignore anything older than some number of years all throughout history (the acceleration of things today means it is finally closing in on the span of a career instead of waiting until the offenders are long dead to collectively realize "hey, that's an awful behavior"). I still find Stallman's views on free software and even some of the politics of interest and of importance. His views on social interactions? Not worth much to me.

Sure, I'm not everyone and it's sad that so many take a one dimensional view of people (so it goes with identity politics). But isn't this reality a *reason* to remove him from the leadership role today? Just look at all the references to the foot picking video anytime discussions of his viewpoints is brought up. Bad hygeine isn't as bad as poor social behavior, but both are a distraction to the goals of these organizations (the latter being of particular importance as these are socially oriented groups). Incidentally, those who bring up such irrelevant facts as if it's some kind of argument against free software is a good litmus test for who to basically ignore in such threads.

> I'm having a hard time seeing what avenues he has left to support himself. Wal*Mart greeter?

I think you should give him more credit. He could work to improve himself and show that he has learned what has been wrong with his behavior and show that he's working towards improving it. But it's not the end of the road for him (at least as far as I'm concerned) unless he doesn't want to continue. But if anyone has the willpower to perservere through such a process, if be surprised if he didn't have it somewhere in him.

> What I find dismaying here is just how much of the Free Software "community" is piling on, and in the process, actively helping the barbarians dismantle the foundations of the entire Free Software movement.

So the free software movement is of the highest importance? If he had committed a felony, should he have been kept in because no one could replace him? I don't think so. There's obviously a line somewhere here. Personally, I think he is no longer suitable as the leader of the FSF because there *are* those who will sling mud like you say above and he's shown that his behavior in social groups was not going to improve. Debates and discussions without that clouding over it are certainly more productive.

Contrast this with Linus who realized he had an issue with his communication and behavior and worked to resolve it. I've not seen a reduction of kernel code quality since then as many have feared. Recognizing and addressing the problems with his behavior could have avoided a lot of the fallout here, but it never happened. There's no reason for me to think that such improvements would have interfered with his contributions to the free software movement (other than the time spent on them).

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 3:31 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> (the acceleration of things today means it is finally closing in on the span of a career instead of waiting until the offenders are long dead to collectively realize "hey, that's an awful behavior")

The rate of societal change has greatly accelerated, media has far more permanence, and is much more easily searched.

(But this is the same underlying reason that that the "beatification" process for promoting someone to sainthood traditionally took many decades -- The Church had to wait until everyone who could credibly accuse the candidate of malfesance had died off...)

> But isn't this reality a *reason* to remove him from the leadership role today?

The harsh reality is that retaining any sort of political leadership role will do more harm than good. This probably will eventually encompass technical leadership roles as well (eg individual GNU projects)

> There's obviously a line somewhere here.

... wherever the line, he crossed it, and now it's being pulled backwards.

> But it's not the end of the road for him (at least as far as I'm concerned) unless he doesn't want to continue.

In any case, he will have to lay low for a while. (I suspect he's finding that he has fewer friends than he thought...)

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 7:13 UTC (Tue) by Psychonaut (guest, #86437) [Link]

> Thomas Jefferson was a slave holder. Many of the ancient Greeks were as well. We'd do well to ignore their takes on matters of slavery. That doesn't mean their other views on topics are useless.

Of course it doesn't, and you would be hard-pressed to find someone who disagrees with that assessment. However, Jefferson and the Ancient Greeks held slaves at a time when this was the societal norm, and this continued to be the societal norm for many decades (or even centuries) afterwards. They did not and could not suffer any slavery-related scandals during their lifetimes that (however irrelevantly) would have tarnished their authority on other matters. Their reputations as political and philosophical greats in their respective fields were safely cemented long ago, and are not today in any danger of collapsing even though society's attitudes have shifted rather dramatically.

Stallman, by contrast, is still alive. Rightly or wrongly, his general behaviour can still influence how others see the ethical-technological views he espouses. As its founder and its most visible and vocal representative, any scandal involving him could be used, illogically but not ineffectively, to discredit the entire free software community.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:22 UTC (Wed) by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, that attitude is a problem. Some people might want to avoid that slippery slope.

By the time that happens, we'll all be at the bottom of that slippery slope, and it'll be very hard to crawl back up.

Right now we're on the edge.

Turning back seems right to be. Slipping ahead seems right to you.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 11, 2019 19:00 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I don't see anything here (personally) as being an attack on Free Software, so you'd have to expand more on why this is a slippery slope. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, Stallman's views on software (and even some politics) are still of interest to me and highly valued. This alone does not mean, to me, that he is the only one qualified to lead GNU.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 8, 2019 4:13 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (14 responses)

Then tear him down and get someone with some spine. I look at what Apple, Google and Microsoft have been doing to undermine FOSS for the past 10-15 years and those ideals haven't done a damn thing to stop it.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:25 UTC (Wed) by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910) [Link]

Because.... how many people will install GNU/Linux as a dual boot option? 0.25% of the human population?

But just because no one *else* is willing to fight for something clearly a lot of us here feel is important, doesn't mean we all collectively throw in the towel.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:30 UTC (Wed) by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910) [Link] (12 responses)

Someone with some *spine*.

That's a bit rich.

I've know few people with half as much spine as RMS. The combination of RMS and Eben Moglen have been a potent force.

Not so long ago, Microsoft called the GPL a virus. Today Microsoft contributes to GPL licensed projects.

Nothing has changed?

I think not - I think a *lot* has changed. And RMS and the GPL have been instrumental in effecting this change.

Just look at the BSDs if you'd like a counter point. They've been around longer, and changed less.

That's "Open Source" for you.

Few people see that though.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 7:58 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

> Today Microsoft contributes to GPL licensed projects.
As far as I'm aware, Microsoft made no contributions to GPLv3-licensed projects.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 17:23 UTC (Wed) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (10 responses)

That is incorrect. Microsoft contribute to Samba and we are GPLv3.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:12 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

The patches themselves in question are licensed as "GPLv2 or later", as far as I can find.

E.g.: https://lists.samba.org/archive/samba-technical/2011-Octo...

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:56 UTC (Wed) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link] (8 responses)

A distinction, sure, but you said "... no contributions to GPLv3-licensed projects" which jra has just refuted.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:59 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (7 responses)

Yes, I should have said "GPLv3-licensed contributions". As far as I'm aware, GPLv3 contributions are almost absolutely forbidden inside the MS.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 10, 2019 11:46 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (6 responses)

Did MS start contributing before GPLv3?

If so, the obvious explanation is that the lawyers approved "V2 or later" and no-one wants the hassle of changing it. Inertia is a *powerful* force - especially in big corporations ...

Cheers,
Wol

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 10, 2019 18:14 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

Not to Samba.

> If so, the obvious explanation is that the lawyers approved "V2 or later" and no-one wants the hassle of changing it.
No. GPLv3 is explicitly prohibited in MS (and many other companies) because of patent clauses.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 10, 2019 23:34 UTC (Thu) by mrshiny (guest, #4266) [Link] (3 responses)

If they're allowed to license the code as "V2 or later" then by definition they're allowed to license it as V3.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 10, 2019 23:42 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

No. By contributing code under GPLv3 you take the full obligations of GPLv3, including all the patent clauses.

By contributing the code under "GPLv2 or later" you only take the obligations imposed by GPLv2. However, GPLv3 projects can still use this code because it's explicitly allowed by GPLv3.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 11, 2019 18:50 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> If they're allowed to license the code as "V2 or later" then by definition they're allowed to license it as V3.

Who is "they"?

If "they" is Microsoft, then they own the copyright so by definition they can licence it as anything.

If "they" is Samba, then the GPL does NOT give them the right to licence the code, so they CAN'T licence it as ANYTHING!

What Samba CAN do, because MS licensed it as V2+, is to *distribute* it under v3.

This is what really grates with me all the time - people who don't understand the difference between the OWNER LICENCING the code, and the USER DISTRIBUTING the code.

Cheers,
Wol

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 11, 2019 19:20 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (guest, #4266) [Link]

I understand the difference. Microsoft contributes the code and retains copyright on the code, but they allow it to be used under the terms of a license, which grants extra rights over what copyright grants. But if they grant "v2 or later" then by definition they're granting v3 as well, which Samba can then use, and offer their users whatever GPLv3 offers.

Richard Stallman and the GNU project

Posted Oct 11, 2019 18:41 UTC (Fri) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link]

No, we have been GPLv3 for a long time (since the license existed essentially). They contributed in full knowledge of this.


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