Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Posted Oct 8, 2019 1:03 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)In reply to: Richard Stallman and the GNU project by pizza
Parent article: Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Posted Oct 8, 2019 1:40 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (24 responses)
Tear down the man first, the ideals he promoted will follow.
Posted Oct 8, 2019 1:50 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:17 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (5 responses)
Every mention of RMS outside of "true believer" circles will end up with "disgraced" in the same sentence. Every time something he wrote gets cited to support an argument why Free Software is a GoodThing(tm), it will get countered with "why should we trust anything that kiddie-raper-apologist and serial-discomforter-of-women had to say?" Especially in conservative corporate contexts where the mear appearance of impropriety gets associations dropped like hot potatoes?
So, yes, RMS stepping down from the FSF was utterly necessary if the FSF was to survive. It's probable that stepping down from GNU will also become necessary. Nobody's going to hire him as a speaker (that whole "disgraced" thing). I'm having a hard time seeing what avenues he has left to support himself. Wal*Mart greeter?
Sure, there's good arguments to be made that RMS should have passed the Free Software leadership torch to someone(s) else. But that ship has sailed, and RMS is being summarily ejected and everyone that is saying so much as "hold on, slow up" is getting actively tarred with the same "kiddie-raper-apologist-apologist" brush. What I find dismaying here is just how much of the Free Software "community" is piling on, and in the process, actively helping the barbarians dismantle the foundations of the entire Free Software movement.
Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:38 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:58 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
While I hope you are correct (and in the long run, I think you will be), in the shorter term this will be additional ammunition for those who seek to undermine support for free software. (It was already a bit of an uphill battle, this just makes it harder...)
Now if you'd said "open source" instead of "free software" I'd agree without reservation, because from that perspective RMS has long been irrelevant except perhaps as a boogeyman.
> Indeed, if the Free Software movement to this day depended on Stallman to that extent, then his career truly would have been a failure.
...Folks who change the world rarely end up with a good personal outcome for their efforts.
Posted Oct 8, 2019 2:50 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (2 responses)
Thomas Jefferson was a slave holder. Many of the ancient Greeks were as well. We'd do well to ignore their takes on matters of slavery. That doesn't mean their other views on topics are useless. Indeed, we'd probably have to ignore anything older than some number of years all throughout history (the acceleration of things today means it is finally closing in on the span of a career instead of waiting until the offenders are long dead to collectively realize "hey, that's an awful behavior"). I still find Stallman's views on free software and even some of the politics of interest and of importance. His views on social interactions? Not worth much to me.
Sure, I'm not everyone and it's sad that so many take a one dimensional view of people (so it goes with identity politics). But isn't this reality a *reason* to remove him from the leadership role today? Just look at all the references to the foot picking video anytime discussions of his viewpoints is brought up. Bad hygeine isn't as bad as poor social behavior, but both are a distraction to the goals of these organizations (the latter being of particular importance as these are socially oriented groups). Incidentally, those who bring up such irrelevant facts as if it's some kind of argument against free software is a good litmus test for who to basically ignore in such threads.
> I'm having a hard time seeing what avenues he has left to support himself. Wal*Mart greeter?
I think you should give him more credit. He could work to improve himself and show that he has learned what has been wrong with his behavior and show that he's working towards improving it. But it's not the end of the road for him (at least as far as I'm concerned) unless he doesn't want to continue. But if anyone has the willpower to perservere through such a process, if be surprised if he didn't have it somewhere in him.
> What I find dismaying here is just how much of the Free Software "community" is piling on, and in the process, actively helping the barbarians dismantle the foundations of the entire Free Software movement.
So the free software movement is of the highest importance? If he had committed a felony, should he have been kept in because no one could replace him? I don't think so. There's obviously a line somewhere here. Personally, I think he is no longer suitable as the leader of the FSF because there *are* those who will sling mud like you say above and he's shown that his behavior in social groups was not going to improve. Debates and discussions without that clouding over it are certainly more productive.
Contrast this with Linus who realized he had an issue with his communication and behavior and worked to resolve it. I've not seen a reduction of kernel code quality since then as many have feared. Recognizing and addressing the problems with his behavior could have avoided a lot of the fallout here, but it never happened. There's no reason for me to think that such improvements would have interfered with his contributions to the free software movement (other than the time spent on them).
Posted Oct 8, 2019 3:31 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
The rate of societal change has greatly accelerated, media has far more permanence, and is much more easily searched.
(But this is the same underlying reason that that the "beatification" process for promoting someone to sainthood traditionally took many decades -- The Church had to wait until everyone who could credibly accuse the candidate of malfesance had died off...)
> But isn't this reality a *reason* to remove him from the leadership role today?
The harsh reality is that retaining any sort of political leadership role will do more harm than good. This probably will eventually encompass technical leadership roles as well (eg individual GNU projects)
> There's obviously a line somewhere here.
... wherever the line, he crossed it, and now it's being pulled backwards.
> But it's not the end of the road for him (at least as far as I'm concerned) unless he doesn't want to continue.
In any case, he will have to lay low for a while. (I suspect he's finding that he has fewer friends than he thought...)
Posted Oct 8, 2019 7:13 UTC (Tue)
by Psychonaut (guest, #86437)
[Link]
Of course it doesn't, and you would be hard-pressed to find someone who disagrees with that assessment. However, Jefferson and the Ancient Greeks held slaves at a time when this was the societal norm, and this continued to be the societal norm for many decades (or even centuries) afterwards. They did not and could not suffer any slavery-related scandals during their lifetimes that (however irrelevantly) would have tarnished their authority on other matters. Their reputations as political and philosophical greats in their respective fields were safely cemented long ago, and are not today in any danger of collapsing even though society's attitudes have shifted rather dramatically.
Stallman, by contrast, is still alive. Rightly or wrongly, his general behaviour can still influence how others see the ethical-technological views he espouses. As its founder and its most visible and vocal representative, any scandal involving him could be used, illogically but not ineffectively, to discredit the entire free software community.
Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:22 UTC (Wed)
by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910)
[Link] (1 responses)
By the time that happens, we'll all be at the bottom of that slippery slope, and it'll be very hard to crawl back up.
Right now we're on the edge.
Turning back seems right to be. Slipping ahead seems right to you.
Posted Oct 11, 2019 19:00 UTC (Fri)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Posted Oct 8, 2019 4:13 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:25 UTC (Wed)
by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910)
[Link]
But just because no one *else* is willing to fight for something clearly a lot of us here feel is important, doesn't mean we all collectively throw in the towel.
Posted Oct 9, 2019 5:30 UTC (Wed)
by gfernandes (subscriber, #119910)
[Link] (12 responses)
That's a bit rich.
I've know few people with half as much spine as RMS. The combination of RMS and Eben Moglen have been a potent force.
Not so long ago, Microsoft called the GPL a virus. Today Microsoft contributes to GPL licensed projects.
Nothing has changed?
I think not - I think a *lot* has changed. And RMS and the GPL have been instrumental in effecting this change.
Just look at the BSDs if you'd like a counter point. They've been around longer, and changed less.
That's "Open Source" for you.
Few people see that though.
Posted Oct 9, 2019 7:58 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Oct 9, 2019 17:23 UTC (Wed)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:12 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (9 responses)
E.g.: https://lists.samba.org/archive/samba-technical/2011-Octo...
Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:56 UTC (Wed)
by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Oct 9, 2019 19:59 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Oct 10, 2019 11:46 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (6 responses)
If so, the obvious explanation is that the lawyers approved "V2 or later" and no-one wants the hassle of changing it. Inertia is a *powerful* force - especially in big corporations ...
Cheers,
Posted Oct 10, 2019 18:14 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
> If so, the obvious explanation is that the lawyers approved "V2 or later" and no-one wants the hassle of changing it.
Posted Oct 10, 2019 23:34 UTC (Thu)
by mrshiny (guest, #4266)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Oct 10, 2019 23:42 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
By contributing the code under "GPLv2 or later" you only take the obligations imposed by GPLv2. However, GPLv3 projects can still use this code because it's explicitly allowed by GPLv3.
Posted Oct 11, 2019 18:50 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Who is "they"?
If "they" is Microsoft, then they own the copyright so by definition they can licence it as anything.
If "they" is Samba, then the GPL does NOT give them the right to licence the code, so they CAN'T licence it as ANYTHING!
What Samba CAN do, because MS licensed it as V2+, is to *distribute* it under v3.
This is what really grates with me all the time - people who don't understand the difference between the OWNER LICENCING the code, and the USER DISTRIBUTING the code.
Cheers,
Posted Oct 11, 2019 19:20 UTC (Fri)
by mrshiny (guest, #4266)
[Link]
Posted Oct 11, 2019 18:41 UTC (Fri)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link]
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
That's silly. Regardless of the merits of defenestrating Stallman, the Free Software movement is much too broad and deep at this point to be significantly affected by his fate. Indeed, if the Free Software movement to this day depended on Stallman to that extent, then his career truly would have been a failure.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
As far as I'm aware, Microsoft made no contributions to GPLv3-licensed projects.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Wol
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
No. GPLv3 is explicitly prohibited in MS (and many other companies) because of patent clauses.
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Wol
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
Richard Stallman and the GNU project
