Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 17, 2019 22:45 UTC (Tue) by k8to (guest, #15413)
In reply to: Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF by nilsmeyer
Parent article: Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

When a workplace person with a position superior to you makes romantic advances that are unwanted, especially if at all persistent, yes that qualifies as harassment legally.

It's also just kind of gross. I know where such relationships have happened, but never was the superior the one kicking it off, and in all upstanding cases the employees immediately arranged to be out of line of report. That's pretty hard to do with the president of the organization.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 18, 2019 10:06 UTC (Wed) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (16 responses)

Maybe something is wrong with my brain and everyone else has a fool proof system to identify when an advance would be welcomed and when not. As a heterosexual man you're usually required to make the first (overt) move, rejection being quite unpleasant you're in a somewhat vulnerable position. And legally (to me at least justifiably so) you can't fire or punish someone for rejecting you so I think that shifts the power differential even more.

I'm always somewhat aghast at how different interpersonal relations seem between (parts of) the US and Europe.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 18, 2019 18:57 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, so there's a lot of detail about whether a reasonable person would consider it unwanted.

It's very well known you just shouldn't be hitting on your reports, from a liability viewpoint, even if you cannot see the social problems. In a sane organization you would have been *required* to complete training ensuring you know this, again from liability drivers if nothing else.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 15:53 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

This situation RAISES the age of consent in the UK I believe.

Okay, for a teacher to get involved with a pupil is just plain stupid anyway, but whereas consent is 16 most anywhere else, in circumstances like this I understand it has been raised to 18.

The problem with this sort of relationship is that "sleeping with the boss" is seen as paying for personal advantage with sexual favours, and if it's the boss who starts it there are overtones of blackmail.

Which is why no sane person should go anywhere near this scenario without being EXTREMELY careful to protect both yourself AND the person you claim to care about. I'd say the latter is the more important, because you can use that to protect yourself.

Cheers,
Wol

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 7:23 UTC (Thu) by fredrik (subscriber, #232) [Link] (13 responses)

nilsmeyer wrote:
> I'm always somewhat aghast at how different interpersonal relations seem between (parts of) the US and Europe.

Maybe I missinterpret you, so tell me, in which parts of Europe would you say the kind of interaction between RMS and women exemplified below is welcome and accepted? From the parts where I live, it certainly is not.

Christine Corbett:
> My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation.
https://twitter.com/corbett/status/994012399656042496

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 17:34 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (12 responses)

> Maybe I missinterpret you, so tell me, in which parts of Europe would you say the kind of interaction between RMS and women exemplified below is welcome and accepted? From the parts where I live, it certainly is not.

No you're right, my sentence was pretty dumb in hindsight. I somewhat trailed off mentally and from the topic. I would say it may be tolerated, certainly not accepted, welcomed or reciprocated. I concede the debate and shall go to the pub.

>> My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our entire conversation.

That's pretty bloody awkward. But it ends with "that was our entire conversation". He's getting it out of the way early, takes his humiliation and moves on. I'm sure Christine was offended that he completely lost interest in her as a person, not because someone she deems far beneath her tried to ask her on a date.

Best case scenario: He doesn't approach her at all. I would say that interaction is probably second best. I can imagine a lot worse scenarios. Honestly if that's where you set the bar some people I personally met should probably be executed thrice.

I think RMS came up with a meat space version of Tinder. It's even free as in freedom.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 17:48 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (10 responses)

> I think RMS came up with a meat space version of Tinder. It's even free as in freedom.

Tinder uses are consenting to use Tinder. People attending professional conferences are not consenting to be hit on.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 22:19 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (9 responses)

People in general are consenting not to be hit on? That's a policy I can get behind completely.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 22:48 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (8 responses)

There are various social situations where it's considered reasonable to hit on someone. In the absence of a lot of additional context, a professional conference is not one of them. Doing so anyway is inappropriate.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 23:58 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (7 responses)

You say "reasonable" and "appropriate". That's entirely subjective to the way you feel. Why leave it open to interpretation? Just shut it all down.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 20, 2019 0:02 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (6 responses)

No, it's the objective social norm.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 20, 2019 0:12 UTC (Fri) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (5 responses)

Can you please explain (or send a link)?

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 20, 2019 0:15 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (4 responses)

Could you explain your confusion?

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 20, 2019 8:39 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (3 responses)

When am I allowed to ask a woman out to date? I seriously have no idea. The best part of being married is that I don't ever have to ask anyone out to date, because I never knew (and still don't know) when, how or who to ask.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 23, 2019 4:29 UTC (Mon) by dos (guest, #103671) [Link] (2 responses)

I suspect that some people just can't get the fact that there are people who genuinely struggle with such things, because they themselves never did.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 23, 2019 4:56 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh good lord you have no idea how often I fucked this up. The important thing isn't making mistakes, it's how you react to being told that you've made a mistake.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 23, 2019 6:08 UTC (Mon) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> The important thing isn't making mistakes, it's how you react to being told that you've made a mistake.

This is a deep truth that goes way beyond asking people out for dates.
To err is human. To admit, apologize, repair - that is what makes community.

Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

Posted Sep 19, 2019 19:13 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The thing is that the Petrie multiplier applies, which changes the moral calculation a little - because men are more common than women in professional software settings, women will disproportionately experience being hit on by men when they are attempting to work as compared to men, even assuming that women are more likely to hit on men at these sorts of events than men are to hit on women.

So, it can be simultaneously true that a small randomly picked sample of men shows that no one woman has been hit on more than once by the sample set, and many women have not been hit on at all, and that the same proportion of women is sufficient to get you a group where, on average, each woman has been hit on at least once (albeit some have not been hit on at all, and others have been hit on multiple times).

This is a problem that Tinder faces, and has to deal with, despite being entirely made up of people who've opted in to being hit on; I can't see it being any better in an environment where the majority of people do not want to be hit on (male or female).