free as in water
free as in water
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:23 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377)In reply to: Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy by Cyberax
Parent article: Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:43 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (34 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:09 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:20 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (31 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:28 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (26 responses)
Again, the important thing isn't that everyone is saying things that require them to have extreme lack of communication channel censors. The important thing is that everyone *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO*. It may just be my USA democracy/freespeech propaganda upbringing talking here, but I think it's critically important to the health of democracy to hold a hard-line on free speech issues. And messily complicated as it is to draw the whole of modern internet technology into the equation, I think it's necessary to do so. And from my understanding of things, the ability to host your own server facilitating such minimization of external censorship opportunities, is a necessary part of that equation.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:28 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (25 responses)
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:34 UTC (Wed)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 6, 2019 5:49 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 3:08 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:28 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
That's your choice, but you don't have the *right* to *force* that trade-off on to me.
"fast, cheap, good. Pick any two ..." There's a whole bunch of things people desire that fall in to this category - choosing one inevitably means you lose another. Just because YOU value freedom of speech above other things, doesn't mean I do.
And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat". The American constitutional right "to pursue happiness" all too often means *REDUCING* the total happiness (happiness is not zero-sum...). There's plenty more I could come up with if I thought about it ... :-)
A lot of non-USians see the US as a greedy self-centred bully, and that sort of attitude re-inforces that view. Yes we may not have been any better in our heyday, but I hope some of us have learnt. I'm not sure, though, given the Little England mentality of "let's put the 'Great' back in to Great Britain".
Cheers,
Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:15 UTC (Wed)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (1 responses)
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that. That's totally unfair. Sometimes when they moan about freedom of speech it's about attempts to block spam, false advertising, and other forms of commercial fraud.
Posted Mar 7, 2019 18:43 UTC (Thu)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
Down here in our small corner of Latin America, some of us still value free speech because some of us have seen (as recently as the 1980s and 1990s) our relatives being tortured and killed for investigating government corruption...
Cría cuervos, e te bicarán los ojos...
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:33 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (15 responses)
Many years ago, I had acquaintances in China who ended up in prison because they exercised their ideal of "freedom of speech". I think they see it different than you, too.
Please note: Neither the USA nor other 1st world countries are the whole world.
Cheers,
PS: I'm from a country where neo-Nazi propaganda is illegal even on your own server, and I think that's OK. We learned the hard way that there are limits to freedom of speech *because* it is so valuable.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:39 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (14 responses)
Sidenote, in Russia cloud services advertised that they are police-proof. It's very typical for corrupt local government to confiscate physical servers as a "material evidence" in a drummed-up criminal case. Even if there's no crime committed and the company is cleared in the court, its work can be paralyzed for months.
And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:56 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (13 responses)
This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
> And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:58 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (12 responses)
Don't move your excuses.
> Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:35 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (1 responses)
This thread started with
> A server in the hand is better than a flock of them in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit instead of yours.
I.e., this is about not running servers *in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit*.
I read *in the hand* as *under one's control*, as cited above. Physical location in one's house (a.k.a "at home") doesn't matter. In fact, you're right that running a server at home is usually not desirable in repressive situations.
> Don't move your excuses.
I don't move my excuses. My reaction was to your comment where you wrote
> > fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
and equated "moaning about freedom of speech" with "spewing neo-Nazi propaganda". This bold equation was the one that I reacted to.
I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.
> > Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
You changed context by deleting your snarky comment that this replied to. FTR:
> > And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.
Well, since that's the case: I retract my expressed opinion that you wrote a complacant comment. That is not a fitting term, and here's not the proper place to express what I think about this. It seems that we live in different worlds, and since that is the case, I'll stop participating in this thread.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 8:57 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
> I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.
> I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.
And if you want to compete about who lived through more civil disturbance then you'll probably lose.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:45 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:52 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 4:06 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 8, 2019 15:25 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (6 responses)
I'd be careful there ... I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him...
Remember my "cheap, fast, good" comment? Free speech is no use when you're dying from an easily-cured illness because you're too poor to afford the treatment. Value systems differ, and yours seems badly out-of-kilter with mine, and probably Cyberax's. Free Speech is worthless, if you lack the resources to make yourself heard.
Cheers,
Posted Mar 8, 2019 17:52 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:03 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:28 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 18, 2019 16:06 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
This seems like a rather inconsistent worldview (though a common one). Freedom, freedom for everyone who agrees with me! But everyone else can go hang.
Posted Mar 23, 2019 22:07 UTC (Sat)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 27, 2019 15:15 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Mar 8, 2019 22:31 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 9, 2019 1:07 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 22, 2019 7:44 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Mar 7, 2019 8:59 UTC (Thu)
by callegar (guest, #16148)
[Link] (3 responses)
Even in the lucky case that to migrate away is your own decision or that the VPS provider tells you with sufficient advance that they are shutting down your service, even on a fast internet connection moving away many tens GBs of email from the VPS can be painful and may lead you to exceed the allowed rate/month.
Furthermore, why saving your chats/posts/email at a cheap VPS provider should give you better privacy guarantees than doing it with google, amazon, facebook, etc.?
Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:44 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:20 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:49 UTC (Mon)
by Lennie (subscriber, #49641)
[Link]
Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:36 UTC (Mon)
by Lennie (subscriber, #49641)
[Link]
mom-and-pop hosting provider in the same city or regional large city of which you know where the datacenter is compared to storing your stuff with Microsoft or Google.
One thing that makes life a lot easier in that case is: same jurisdiction.
free as in water
apples and oranges
apples and oranges
censorship
censorship
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
naked troll alert
> fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
It is certainly true that Free Speech, and Freedom more generally are often used in the service of double plus ungoodness. Such is the price we all pay to enjoy their benefits. But I'll take that tradeoff any day of my life.
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.naked troll alert
read the plentiful lines
naked troll alert
Wol
censorship
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
censorship
censorship
Joachim
censorship
And how a box at home will help it? It's even worse - your home box can easily be confiscated.
censorship
> And how a box at home will help it?
Don't move the goal posts.
censorship
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.
No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.
censorship
> > Don't move the goal posts.
> I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME".
> TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
> When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.
> No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.
censorship
Maybe not this branch of the thread, but its peer is about home servers explicitly.
In the US right now the "free speech advocates" almost invariably turn out to be Nazis/racists or crazies.
Nope. I saw that the value of self-controlled communication services is pretty much zero. GMail or Facebook turned out to be more helpful.
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
> This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better. The two of us have gone over the issue in as much depth in multiple prior LWN comment threads. The FCC angle was something I added to the article's discussion comment thread. Cyberax steadfastly holds the position that my angle does not represent good thinking on the subject. I have come to the conclusion that Cyberax is a troll or has some personal stake that isn't clear to me yet explaining their opposition to my FCC issue.
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.
Don't move your excuses.
While I mocked the mocking/hyberbolic reference to unrealistic dreams in the beginning of the article in another comment, it happens to be true that one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe. We should have the freedom to architect our own 'echo chambers' :) (one of the first domains I registered was 'filteredperception.org'. Empowering people to more efficiently filter their own perception of the internet is worth doing I think)
You might just try ignoring Cyberax until then, or perhaps theorize the account holder has deployed an annoying chatbot. Whatever works...
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.
filtered/richlycontextualized perception
[me]> Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better.
On the subject of
[Cyberax]- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe.
A quick hack that comes to mind would be adding a link to every comment which goes to a page of links to prior comments of that commenter responding to the same individual. Or a generated list of search results based on a search of the commenter's past comments using the current comment as the search terms. Not quite a federated next generation slashdot frenemy reputation filtering, but perhaps facilitating easier gleaming of long term conversational insights.
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
Wol
our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech
[Wol]: I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him
I do remeber your words. I'm wise enough to know when to end a conversation permanently. Please refrain from replying directly to any comments of mine in the future, I will make the same effort.
[Also Wol elsewhere]: And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat".
A wise troll once said "The line between trollness and non-trollness is not a line drawn on a map or in the sand between people. It is a line drawn down the heart of each and every one of us."
our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech
Sounds especially ironic from a free-speech advocate.
magic words
magic words
magic words
magic words
censorship
censorship
What does reCaptcha has to do with right-wing whiners?
censorship
apples and oranges
apples and oranges
So does your home server hard drive...
backup copies and choosing where to physically store important data
apples and oranges
apples and oranges