Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Indeed, it seems all networked systems tend towards centralisation as the natural consequence of growth. Some systems, both legitimate and illegitimate, are intentionally designed for centralisation. Other systems, like those in the Mastodon universe, are specifically designed to avoid centralisation, but even these succumb to the centralised black hole as their user bases grow towards the event horizon."
Posted Mar 4, 2019 16:14 UTC (Mon)
by bersl2 (guest, #34928)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 4, 2019 17:25 UTC (Mon)
by alyssa (guest, #130775)
[Link] (2 responses)
Yes, it's a power law, but a very, very, very steep one at that. Mathematically, you're right, thank you for pointing this out. But even with the data normalized like this, this does not paint a promising picture of decentralization.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 18:12 UTC (Mon)
by bersl2 (guest, #34928)
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Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:43 UTC (Thu)
by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989)
[Link]
Human beings do this with politics as much as technology: let those who really groove on communications electronics figure out how to both design and regulate my handset, so I can bother my pretty head* with other matters.
Possibly what's needful is a discussion on how we manage to put "enough" time into limiting the centralization of information management. Promises to be a challenge.
*It's not actually pretty.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 18:50 UTC (Mon)
by Deleted user 129183 (guest, #129183)
[Link] (55 responses)
> In the decentralised dream, every user hosts their own server. Every toddler and grandmother is required to become their own system administrator. This dream is an accessibility nightmare, for if advanced technical skills are the price to privacy, all but the technocratic elite are walled off from freedom.
Not only an accessibility nightmare, but also a monetary nightmare. Not everybody can afford their own server, domain, et cetera. Actual money can be also price for privacy, and that means that all but economical elite are walled off from freedom.
The compromise – hosting a system for oneself and for one’s friends – doesn’t help much. I’m actually in charge of a small Internet community (kinda relevantly, democratic – I was elected to the position), and we would really want to self-host our mailing list – but we can’t really do it, all we can afford is a shared server that makes setting it all up practically impossible. So we use an external centralised mailing list service for lack of the better options.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:58 UTC (Mon)
by deiter (guest, #130779)
[Link] (54 responses)
Most people would have trouble using a package manager, but in terms of affording a "server, domain, et cetera", all of those cost less than a cell phone and plan.
>So we use an external centralised mailing list service for lack of the better options.
Are you sure you need a mailing list? Many web forums allow one to subscribe to a topic.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 8:31 UTC (Tue)
by osma (subscriber, #6912)
[Link] (13 responses)
With e-mail, the main problem I see is spam. Hosting your own mail server pretty soon becomes a daunting task of keeping out all the junk. Yes there are tools like SpamAssassin that can help - when configured well, which requires a lot of studying and experimentation to get right, and the situation keeps evolving so you have to keep maintaining it to stay on top of the situation.
With web servers the situation is similar: it's pretty easy to follow tutorials to set up a LAMP stack and for example WordPress, but then you have to keep defending your installation from intruders, comment spammers and the like.
It can be a fun challenge for a while if you have the right mindset but eventually it gets tedious. With hosted services run by big companies, they do all the housekeeping for you, but usually they also ask for either your money or your privacy (or both) in return.
(I've run a public mail server and an increasing number of public-facing web servers since around 2000)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 10:41 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:56 UTC (Tue)
by ale2018 (guest, #128727)
[Link] (2 responses)
I'd rather pay for my own disks than keep my mail in the cloud. I don't see the privacy guarantees of the latter. As a matter of facts, the majority of servers encrypt mail in transit, but a very meager subset of users applies end-to-end encryption. So, knowing who can read your disk makes a difference.
IME, most of the effort and cost of maintaining a mail server is related to the connection; for example, an HDSL line with fixed addresses registered at RIPE along with your own abuse contact. Most ISPs in my country unfairly require a VAT number for a fixed address, and no-one registers an abuse address for you.
> With e-mail, the main problem I see is spam. Hosting your own mail server pretty soon becomes a daunting task of keeping out all the junk.
The "economies of scale" in this case allow a server to classify senders. No email message arrives at Google's servers from an unknown sender. On the opposite, my tiny server meets ~40 new domains every day. I use lists, such as Spamhaus and DNSWL, which is still a kind of centralization.
The spam problem is physiologic. Lots of money revolves around advertising. And many people still consider the merchant-customer relationship akin to the predator-prey one. The challenge, and the dream, is to change their mind.
> they also ask for either your money or your privacy (or both) in return.
Exactly!
Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:21 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (1 responses)
Or we can try to change yours. I'm sure Google and Microsoft before them would be happier if consumers knew their place and stopped complaining to their representatives urging regulation of 'predatory' business practices.
Perhaps Snowden ushered in a pendulum swing, but prior to 2013 I certainly felt that not enough people recognized the predator-prey nature of their relationships to technology and multibillion dollar international tech companies. I don't think that pendulum has swung too far yet. That's one hell of a capitalist predator we have in the oval office these days...
LOVINT...
Posted Mar 18, 2019 14:59 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 13:03 UTC (Tue)
by ms (subscriber, #41272)
[Link] (1 responses)
The main problem I see is that "residental" IPs are all on black lists. Most large email providers will not accept SMTP connections from such blacklisted IPs. I've not tested to see if that's any different if you set up SPF/DKIM and friends, but I wouldn't expect it to work. It's a walled garden world.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 17:46 UTC (Tue)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
Exactly. This is the other side of it being hard for a residential user to keep the spam out because they can't recognize all the spam generating servers. Big companies like Google can't either, but they can get away with ignoring all the small servers and leave the problems this creates for others to deal with.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 17:02 UTC (Tue)
by iabervon (subscriber, #722)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:17 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:04 UTC (Tue)
by iabervon (subscriber, #722)
[Link] (3 responses)
You might end up with a system where some participants do session negotiation work in addition to transmitting messages that involve them, but that doesn't have to matter from a user perspective.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 1:53 UTC (Wed)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (2 responses)
Which just means that I think there would be a world of difference in the state of the art (today, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years from now...) if the FCC had specified that server prohibition ToS is a functionally and legally equivalent form of the net neutrality violation of blocking based on application, service, or device type. I suspect most in this audience can see the functional equivalence (in the case of people who choose to read and obey that extremely small fraction of the very wordy contractual terms of service). However most of the general public may not understand that. Generational effects may change that however.
(*) it does matter _a little_ for the user perspective, in a sense. The hope might be that it matters so little for long enough that other factors eventually obviate it and make it a moot point.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 5:56 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Other countries have many ISPs that can't care less about running home servers. Situation is not different at all there - the reason why home servers are not used is not a legal regulation or a contractual claus, it's the inefficiency and cost of doing it.
Posted Mar 7, 2019 16:57 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:39 UTC (Wed)
by 0A (guest, #126874)
[Link]
If you just want an email server where you can receive any email from other people, without $COMPANY technically having access to them, or 'deciding' which mails are worth appearing into your inbox or not, it is relatively easy.
However, if you also want not to receive _certain_ emails, that is a different, and harder, problem. We enter into the realm of deciding which emails you _want_ and which not. And yes, the algorithms used by Gmail would probably be better than a bare SpamAssessin/rspamd, if anything for the amount of email that they can peek into in order to detect mass-campaigns. However, they too have false positives, and sometimes mark legitimate messages as spam. So if you delegate into their antispam for organising your inbox, you also have to bear their failures (of course, you can't "just" import their antispam without also using other pieces).
Depending on your email flow, that may not be such a problem. You may eg. prefer to review manually every received email, and create -if needed- local rules on your MUA. Or go the opposite way and only let direct access to your inbox from a few whitelisted domains/users.
In fact, for the scenario by Polynka of a small community, it should be easy to use a mailing list that needs approval and where only subscribers can send.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 9:17 UTC (Tue)
by grawity (subscriber, #80596)
[Link] (39 responses)
Under the assumption that you have the technical means to pay for it. I got my first email account when I was 11, but I couldn't get a bank card capable of making online payments until 18.
(Not that VPSes were anywhere as common or as cheap at that time, either...)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 19:46 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (38 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:23 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (35 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:43 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (34 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:09 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:20 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (31 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:28 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (26 responses)
Again, the important thing isn't that everyone is saying things that require them to have extreme lack of communication channel censors. The important thing is that everyone *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO*. It may just be my USA democracy/freespeech propaganda upbringing talking here, but I think it's critically important to the health of democracy to hold a hard-line on free speech issues. And messily complicated as it is to draw the whole of modern internet technology into the equation, I think it's necessary to do so. And from my understanding of things, the ability to host your own server facilitating such minimization of external censorship opportunities, is a necessary part of that equation.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:28 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (25 responses)
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:34 UTC (Wed)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 6, 2019 5:49 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 3:08 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:28 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
That's your choice, but you don't have the *right* to *force* that trade-off on to me.
"fast, cheap, good. Pick any two ..." There's a whole bunch of things people desire that fall in to this category - choosing one inevitably means you lose another. Just because YOU value freedom of speech above other things, doesn't mean I do.
And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat". The American constitutional right "to pursue happiness" all too often means *REDUCING* the total happiness (happiness is not zero-sum...). There's plenty more I could come up with if I thought about it ... :-)
A lot of non-USians see the US as a greedy self-centred bully, and that sort of attitude re-inforces that view. Yes we may not have been any better in our heyday, but I hope some of us have learnt. I'm not sure, though, given the Little England mentality of "let's put the 'Great' back in to Great Britain".
Cheers,
Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:15 UTC (Wed)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (1 responses)
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that. That's totally unfair. Sometimes when they moan about freedom of speech it's about attempts to block spam, false advertising, and other forms of commercial fraud.
Posted Mar 7, 2019 18:43 UTC (Thu)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
Down here in our small corner of Latin America, some of us still value free speech because some of us have seen (as recently as the 1980s and 1990s) our relatives being tortured and killed for investigating government corruption...
Cría cuervos, e te bicarán los ojos...
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:33 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (15 responses)
Many years ago, I had acquaintances in China who ended up in prison because they exercised their ideal of "freedom of speech". I think they see it different than you, too.
Please note: Neither the USA nor other 1st world countries are the whole world.
Cheers,
PS: I'm from a country where neo-Nazi propaganda is illegal even on your own server, and I think that's OK. We learned the hard way that there are limits to freedom of speech *because* it is so valuable.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:39 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (14 responses)
Sidenote, in Russia cloud services advertised that they are police-proof. It's very typical for corrupt local government to confiscate physical servers as a "material evidence" in a drummed-up criminal case. Even if there's no crime committed and the company is cleared in the court, its work can be paralyzed for months.
And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:56 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (13 responses)
This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
> And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:58 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (12 responses)
Don't move your excuses.
> Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:35 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link] (1 responses)
This thread started with
> A server in the hand is better than a flock of them in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit instead of yours.
I.e., this is about not running servers *in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit*.
I read *in the hand* as *under one's control*, as cited above. Physical location in one's house (a.k.a "at home") doesn't matter. In fact, you're right that running a server at home is usually not desirable in repressive situations.
> Don't move your excuses.
I don't move my excuses. My reaction was to your comment where you wrote
> > fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
and equated "moaning about freedom of speech" with "spewing neo-Nazi propaganda". This bold equation was the one that I reacted to.
I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.
> > Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
You changed context by deleting your snarky comment that this replied to. FTR:
> > And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.
I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.
Well, since that's the case: I retract my expressed opinion that you wrote a complacant comment. That is not a fitting term, and here's not the proper place to express what I think about this. It seems that we live in different worlds, and since that is the case, I'll stop participating in this thread.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 8:57 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
> I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.
> I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.
And if you want to compete about who lived through more civil disturbance then you'll probably lose.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:45 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:52 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 4:06 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 8, 2019 15:25 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (6 responses)
I'd be careful there ... I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him...
Remember my "cheap, fast, good" comment? Free speech is no use when you're dying from an easily-cured illness because you're too poor to afford the treatment. Value systems differ, and yours seems badly out-of-kilter with mine, and probably Cyberax's. Free Speech is worthless, if you lack the resources to make yourself heard.
Cheers,
Posted Mar 8, 2019 17:52 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:03 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:28 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 18, 2019 16:06 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
This seems like a rather inconsistent worldview (though a common one). Freedom, freedom for everyone who agrees with me! But everyone else can go hang.
Posted Mar 23, 2019 22:07 UTC (Sat)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 27, 2019 15:15 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Mar 8, 2019 22:31 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 9, 2019 1:07 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 22, 2019 7:44 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Mar 7, 2019 8:59 UTC (Thu)
by callegar (guest, #16148)
[Link] (3 responses)
Even in the lucky case that to migrate away is your own decision or that the VPS provider tells you with sufficient advance that they are shutting down your service, even on a fast internet connection moving away many tens GBs of email from the VPS can be painful and may lead you to exceed the allowed rate/month.
Furthermore, why saving your chats/posts/email at a cheap VPS provider should give you better privacy guarantees than doing it with google, amazon, facebook, etc.?
Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:44 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:20 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:49 UTC (Mon)
by Lennie (subscriber, #49641)
[Link]
Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:36 UTC (Mon)
by Lennie (subscriber, #49641)
[Link]
mom-and-pop hosting provider in the same city or regional large city of which you know where the datacenter is compared to storing your stuff with Microsoft or Google.
One thing that makes life a lot easier in that case is: same jurisdiction.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 8:03 UTC (Wed)
by gravious (guest, #7662)
[Link] (1 responses)
(1) dynamic IP and dynamic DNS
(2) email servers are complex beasts compared to other types of servers
---
HTTPS used to be on the list but Letsencrypt solved that
---
I think probably everybody here has the internet at home, has a spare always-on box (be it a lowly rPi or a mighty Mac Pro), but getting a fixed IP address (how does one do that?) and managing your email locally and properly without going insane (how does one do that?).
Posted Mar 6, 2019 14:13 UTC (Wed)
by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039)
[Link]
Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:01 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (7 responses)
I don't think Wikipedia makes a good examples of a democracy though. Maybe viewed from afar, but when you have seem the way things play out in practice, it's clearly not so much a model of a democracy, as a corrupt bureaucracy, filled with abuse, unneeded strife, cronyism, and false flags.
Then again, maybe this is closer to modern democracy than I want to believe.
Still, I think the enforced hierarchy of their system breeds many of these problems. Maybe it's worth disclaiming the specifics a bit to make your argument a little stronger.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:11 UTC (Mon)
by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844)
[Link] (6 responses)
Wikipedia's own pledge drives note that fewer than 1% of its users donate. Meanwhile, the sprawling extent of MetaWiki is a testament to how much bureaucracy is involved in Wikipedia community participation. Any non-trivial edit that you make is liable to be pounced on by a cabal of self-important rules-lawyers. The governance structure is full of so much bikeshedding and cronyism that the barrier to participate, rather than just consume the information, is insurmountable to most people. This is much like the real world: unless you are a 'career politician,' it is impossible to effect meaningful change.
The only exceptions I can think of are communities that are small enough that the entire community participates in governance, for example a small makerspace, church, hiking group, etc. From the online communities perspective, this is similar to the 'create your own server for you and your friends' model. I agree that it is not ideal, for all the reasons mentioned in the article. But real-world so-called democracies aren't ideal either, and neither is Wikipedia, so I don't agree that those are good models to emulate.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:06 UTC (Tue)
by alyssa (guest, #130775)
[Link] (3 responses)
I understand the issues with so-called democracies. Hailing from a Western democracy, I have inherited the cultural belief (naivete?) that the system is ~okay. As I see it, every political model conceivable is flawed, perhaps reflecting an underlying flawed human nature. Nevertheless, I remain optimistic that the system known as democracy - and I concede the reality strays from the philosophical ideal - is the best option, broken as it may be.
Even oligarchy pretending to be democracy can be de facto better than alternatives, repugnant as it is. I am well-aware of the disenfranchisement of the Western citizen, but overall, life is freer here than elsewhere. Digitally, I hope we can inherit this benefit, even if we are full-aware the pristine philosophy of the matter may be doomed from day #1.
(I sought to address this in the paragraph beginning "Granted, information democracy is not a perfect system...". I apologise for downplaying the objection in pursuit of a shred of hope, at the expense of the reasons you lay out.)
Thank you for the food for thought.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:32 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Most countries that like to call themselves "democracies" are actually nothing of the sort, they are "representative governments" - we call ourselves a "parliamentary democracy" but, seeing as we vote representatives into parliament who then mostly vote as their party leaders tell them to, that's hardly democratic *or* representative. And for the majority of the electorate there is little real choice in our vote anyway, which is why so many people don't bother!
The problem, of course, is that as the number of people that are truly enfranchised goes up, so does the potential for rigging the system, or even just for people who don't actually have a clue mucking the system up. One only has to look at the chaos surrounding Brexit to see the havoc that a true democracy can generate ...
Cheers,
Posted Mar 19, 2019 10:22 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Mar 7, 2019 2:30 UTC (Thu)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:19 UTC (Tue)
by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375)
[Link] (1 responses)
K3n.
Posted Mar 10, 2019 15:23 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Sounds like you've never served on a jury ...
Neither have I but everyone I've talked to has said it leaves you rather badly out-of-pocket, as you're paid a miserly daily allowance, plus expenses, which is usually worth far less than the (usually) unpaid leave you're forced to take.
Oh - and over here, getting out of jury service is doable but not easy. Unlike the American system where you just get yourself challenged and thrown off, here it's more like "who's the next twelve? In you go ..." and it's *HARD* for either defence or prosecution to get you thrown off - they need good grounds. If you're lucky, you get a trial that lasts a few days. If you're unlucky, it lasts a few months!
Cheers,
Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:18 UTC (Mon)
by ejr (subscriber, #51652)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 6, 2019 1:08 UTC (Wed)
by 0A (guest, #126874)
[Link]
Of course, if I sent a wedding notice to everyone I ever met, it would be naive to expect that not to hit Microsoft or Google mail servers. Whereas if I'm passing some company info to a work colleague that sits at the next room, the logical thing would be that it shouldn't need to get out of the company, getting to his inbox passing through a third-party server hosted on another country (which is what -shockingly- many companies are doing nowadays with their mail servers, even technically competent ones).
A better example for XMPP than the mentioned WhatsApp, and the one I was expecting to see was GTalk. While WhatsApp has always been a closed system, Google Talk peered with other XMPP servers. Its UI was designed around the idea that you would connect with other Gmail users, but it allowed talking with people that were on other jabber servers, as well as connecting there with a different XMPP client if theirs didn't suit you. Many people -and communication platforms suffer greatly of this trap effect, where an individual can't migrate on its own- may not care/know about better options and use eg. Facebook chat. But if you could interoperate with other systems, it wouldn't put you in the dichotomy of migrating your conversations to that new client that works better (for you) or staying there because that's the only that your granny knows to use.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:45 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (13 responses)
This sets the bar for success unreasonably high. It means a successful decentralized system must somehow enforce norms on its participants in spheres well beyond the scope of the system itself. It also suggests a good system will somehow prevent any one participant for attracting "too much" traffic. Both of those features would imply restrictions on freedom, which would probably make people uncomfortable when you have worked out the details.
In fact the Web is a great example of a decentralized system. Contra the author, it *is* easy for anyone technical to set up a Web server and in practice a lot of people and organizations do set up their own servers and attract large amounts of traffic. (There are also numerous services to support non-technical people publishing Web content.) The standards that govern the technology are not controlled by any one company (as long as Mozilla survives). You have lots of viable choices for technology and services to set up a Web site, most of which are open-source. You also have multiple viable independent open-source clients. Web standards support delivering almost any kind of application and content. Sweeping all this decentralized goodness aside because Facebook and Youtube exist seems short-sighted.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:32 UTC (Mon)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:40 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (2 responses)
Right. In practice it's also important that significant numbers of people *do* continually exercise the option, otherwise the systems that support the option "in theory" will atrophy. The Web does have that critical mass.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:52 UTC (Mon)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 19, 2019 10:30 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
I am in favour of home servers -- I run quite a lot of them -- but all your harping on the subject is doing here is proving your parochialism. Your proposed solution has been tried and it *does not work*. It does not do what you repeatedly say it will do. I wish it did, but it turns out that allowing home servers is not a panacea. It doesn't cure disease or old age either, imagine that.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:05 UTC (Mon)
by ejr (subscriber, #51652)
[Link] (8 responses)
Conversations and frequent interactions on small items are rather different.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:43 UTC (Tue)
by areilly (subscriber, #87829)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 10, 2019 7:19 UTC (Sun)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:53 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:05 UTC (Thu)
by callegar (guest, #16148)
[Link] (4 responses)
This is also a significant disincentive for providing services from the home.
Cloud services, where many people need to upload files onto the cloud and get bored about waiting for the upload may lead ISPs to slightly reduce the asymmetry, though.
Posted Mar 10, 2019 7:09 UTC (Sun)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 10, 2019 14:34 UTC (Sun)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 11, 2019 0:08 UTC (Mon)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:24 UTC (Mon)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
In large part, though, that's because the US hasn't built home Internet infrastructure; they have repurposed infrastructure designed for television (cable, DSL) for home Internet service, instead of putting in dedicated networking facilities.
This makes offering service very cheap - most of the civils have been done already in order to provide subscription TV (cable) or telephone networks (DSL - which was designed to let telcos compete with cable networks by offering TV), but also means that the compromises that make sense for TV (limited bandwidth from home to central office, much wider bandwidth from central office to home, more control of signal at central office thus higher modulation rates possible getting more bits/symbol) have to be accepted in terms of Internet access.
Fixing that requires fresh civils that replace the existing last mile networks with either dedicated copper or fibre (probably fibre nowadays, as it's cheaper in the volumes that a new network would need, and has far higher bandwidth in each direction than expensive copper - expensive copper can be good to around 5 GHz at best, but has attenuation on the order of 60 dB/km, while single mode fibre is good for around 100 THz - 100,000 GHz - with attenuation on the order of 1 dB/km).
This, in turn, requires either political willpower to spend tax money on disruptive infrastructure projects, or commercial incentives to do so rather than just providing Internet access on existing (paid-for) infrastructure. It's worth noting that in many former Soviet countries, where TV and telephone infrastructure did not exist, they're doing just that; putting in cheap fibre and running symmetric Internet services on it, because it's cheaper to do that than put in US-style TV and telephone infrastructure.
Similarly, parts of Scandinavia, Singapore, and South Korea are putting in fibre for Internet service because the political willpower is there to say "we want good Internet service, and we'll pay the price to get there, bypassing Internet over legacy installs.
Finally, in countries like the UK, there's a different route being tried to make it work commercially; we're doing fibre-to-the-cabinet (in the form of HFC cable and VDSL2 from telephone cabinets), which effectively moves the central offices closer to people's homes, and reduces the cost of replacing the old TV/telephone network with a pure fibre data-first network by making money from moving the switch to Internet services closer to people's homes. It's a lot cheaper to replace the ~300m of cable from my house to the nearest cabinet than it is to replace the ~5km of cable from my house to the central office.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 20:04 UTC (Mon)
by brunowolff (guest, #71160)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:54 UTC (Tue)
by areilly (subscriber, #87829)
[Link] (1 responses)
It isn't obvious that most people want to run their own services, and those who do seem to be adequately catered to by the spectrum of alternatives between hosted and provisioned servers in a cloud of some sort, all the way down to a CMS packaged onto a raspberry PI. Anything cloud-hosted isn't obviously ISP-choked.
You can usually pay other people to do the work, or not, as suits.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:47 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
I would say it's obviously twice as ISP-choked. Moving your self-operated server from your home to 'the cloud' (read: somebody else's server in somebody else's building connected to somebody else's ISP) simply increases the number of ISPs that are able to choke off that speech from the global information superhighway at their whim. As soon as you enter into a business relationship with Linode or Amazon/AWS you are curtailing the level of freedom you have to operate to satisfy their many cya-vague contractual terms of service in addition to what you have already curtailed by 'voluntarily' agreeing to your ISP's contractual terms of service.
In practical terms, it is not(*) a meter-able ever-visibly-present chokepoint, but it is as much a chokepoint as the authoritarian in control of preventing any rogue nipples from appearing on a tv-screen during certain hours of the day.
(*) of course the network traffic is measurably limited in both the home server and cloud server scenarios, the main attraction of the cloud side being that you have the option of paying more to get more bandwidth if you have a use for it.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 20:08 UTC (Mon)
by szoth (guest, #14825)
[Link]
It seems like this discussion is similar to what people in the crypto-currency community are realizing about governance being an unavoidable reality.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:19 UTC (Mon)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:34 UTC (Mon)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (7 responses)
What about IPv4 address exhaustion and carrier-grade NAT?
Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:02 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (6 responses)
Average IPv6 penetration is at 25% now. Pretty soon we should be able to think about IPv4 as about "that legacy protocol our parents used long ago". This being said I wonder how many users actually have that router today. I know most my friends don't have it - in fact many of them only have Internet access from phone... it would be silly to put web-server on it. Prohibitively expensive for one.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 0:50 UTC (Tue)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (2 responses)
Sure, we can probably get away with jettisoning some of those countries from our Brave New IPv6 World, but not all of them. In particular, I imagine China will adopt IPv6 when China feels like it, and not on anyone else's timetable.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:45 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
The fact that they don't want to allow people to have independent servers there is unfortunate, but I don't see why this should affect the rest of the world.
Other countries would quickly adopt IPv6 if there would be incentive: hardware and everything is out there.
The critical point is 50% since after that it becomes more lucrative to bring more IPv6 users on board than to try to help remaining IPv4 users - and many contries are very close.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 13:17 UTC (Tue)
by jem (subscriber, #24231)
[Link]
[...]
"If one was to look to China to be the last piece in a critical mass of IPv6 deployment that will propel the Internet's migration over the coming years, then the picture is looking very encouraging."
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190102_ipv6_in_china/
Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:09 UTC (Thu)
by callegar (guest, #16148)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:43 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:27 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
For-profit ISPs might believe they could make a greater amount of money differentiating plans and users. The scheme probably works better the less choice of alternate ISP the targeted users have.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:24 UTC (Tue)
by zyga (subscriber, #81533)
[Link] (1 responses)
In some countries even hosting a blog requires the operator to obtain state license. The operator is under legal liability for comments posted on whatever services are being operated. Then there is the ISP. Obtaining a public IP address is one thing, obtaining one and hosting a service (vaguely defined for the purpose of shutting down traffic hogs) may require a totally different contract.
I would love to live in a world where content is hosted and mirror reliably in a mesh network but we are not there and the recent trends around privacy invasion and legal strong arm make that less and less likely.
Posted Mar 11, 2019 11:00 UTC (Mon)
by Lennie (subscriber, #49641)
[Link]
We aren't at that point yet, but it's getting closer every month.
Now I do expect some kind of commercialization, which could mean: pay for IPFS storage.
Some are developing blockchain coin/IPFS storage solutions.
Or maybe I should say: an other chance to do it right or fail again.
Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:38 UTC (Mon)
by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223)
[Link] (13 responses)
a) I'd hardly call it "lengthy" - took me 5 minutes to read. (For reference I would consider "lengthy" to start at around 20 minutes for a first pass) - and that's a criticism of the expectations raised by the lead-in rather than the article.
Let's look at what I consider the key point in the article:
"
The answer?
Three.
Just three instances encompass 50.8% of users.
So there are only three main nodes. Well, that's still 300% of the externally visible nodes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, ....
Likewise email. Yep Google Mail has a huge hunk of email users. But there are other large servers, and plenty of smaller servers.
The false dichotomy is the implicit message I got from the first half: "A large number of roughly equal weighted is federated, any other distribution is centralization". As far as I'm concerned Mastadon _is_ still federated. People choosing not to manage their own personal server, and instead use someone else's server (either for free or for money) does not affect whether something is federated or not. The protocol is open and any individual or organization could set up new nodes and create a significant redistribution of users. A point that's actually made further down the article:
"True, Mastodon is de facto centralised, but despite the size of the largest instances, it retains the ability to federate with other Mastodon instances. Further, Mastodon is able to federate with other free software friendly networks via a pair of common protocols, creating the familial fabric of the “fediverse”. Centralization and federation can certainly co-exist in harmony to improve efficiency while retaining user choice."
So which is it? Is federation "dead" or is it still there?
There's major issues for federated systems; last time I checked Mastadon had not displaced Twitter for the general public, and to me _that_ is a bigger problem than how many federated Mastadon nodes are popular. The Web is also a federated system. I would argue that the inherent federated nature is a reason things are not 100% centralized now. Matrix offers another interesting federated option; it will be interesting to see how the adoption by the "French Ministry of Digital" plays out.
I would summarize the last section generally as "the issue is less the technology; the culture we build on top of whatever platform is at least as important". A gross simplification I acknowledge, but I was struggling for a phrase longer than "information democracy" and short enough to fit here. A federated system doesn't necessarily ensure freedom, but it makes it much easier to construct freedom, centralization of servers or not. In that I _think_ we are in agreement.
So I actually agree with where the article finishes, I just think the whole "federation is dead", "federation is a fallacy" was over-played and a distraction from the good bits.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:42 UTC (Tue)
by ejr (subscriber, #51652)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 3:07 UTC (Tue)
by areilly (subscriber, #87829)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:32 UTC (Tue)
by alyssa (guest, #130775)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's not a perfect measure of activity across the fediverse, but seeing as status updates are the primary function of a microblogging platform, it should give a pretty close estimate.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 2:40 UTC (Wed)
by areilly (subscriber, #87829)
[Link]
The alternative to taking a cut-down feed (which is fractional de-federation, I suppose) is to have an account on an enormous server, where the feed volume is aggregated between the active users, and the message database is physically shared.
WhatsApp might just be XMPP, but it works because it's single node, an enormous SMP system has been competently engineered and refined to the limits of current technology. Cleaving that into federated pieces would necessarily complicate and slow down message delivery and introduce all sorts of synchronization and protocol issues. Seems like a reasonable design trade-off, if you can make it work. More secure than SMS and it's inter-exchange signalling issues.
The multi-dimensional discrepancies between network terms-of-service, national speech laws and population-group sensibilities is one of the more interesting struggles of our age, IMO.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:01 UTC (Tue)
by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:06 UTC (Tue)
by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223)
[Link] (4 responses)
3 servers have 51.8% of the users. From a followup comment I gather 5 servers have 51.4% of the traffic. So I can accept that there are 3-5 servers that matter and the rest are of rapidly diminishing significance. I'd still call 3-5 servers a federation.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 15:03 UTC (Tue)
by ejr (subscriber, #51652)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 5, 2019 16:51 UTC (Tue)
by dan_a (guest, #5325)
[Link]
Today, it's not that difficult to start running an email server but there is an increasing difficulty getting your emails accepted by other servers due to spam protections.
In the world with 5 big email services, if you can start running your own email server and start sending emails to people on all 5 of those services and receive replies then it's still open and federated and that's all good. On the other hand, if the mail from your little email server gets rejected by the big 5 (because anyone who is not one of them must be a spammer) then it's no longer an open and federated service, but a closed federation which you can't join in with, and that's not good.
I don't know how the Mastodon world works, but to my mind as long as anyone has the ability to join the federation then it doesn't really matter if there's a big concentration of users on a small number of servers.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:14 UTC (Tue)
by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223)
[Link] (1 responses)
a-ok? No. Still Federated? Yes. Scope for improvement? Definitely. Likelyhood of improvement? ............
Longer answer:
I'd consider only having gmail , o365 and yahoo still a better situation than the other "messaging" options. I think email is in an "interesting" situation as it is, AFAIK, the longest still-used federated protocol. Firstly the whole barrier-to-entry issue has, and continues to, whittle away at the federated nature of e-mail. But it's hanging on by its fingernails. Part of the problem is that the original email protocols have . . . er . . . "issues" and most attempts to fix them hit vested interests and/or undermine the original federated nature. But right now I can (and do) run my own email sever. After having to switch to the NBN I lost my static IP - DDNS to the rescue. Sub-optima but useable. I then found that my IP address was being allocated from a pool which is blacklisted (all of it - thanks Telstra). OK, so outgoing email gets routed via a freind's hosted email server and I've set up SPF records so that everyone[1] accepts the incoming mail. Would a sane person bother with all this? No. But . . . for the sane, and for me if/when I give up on all this, I can immediately think of an additional 3-5 big Australian commercial providers I could use for my email. Which for me (living in Australia) means my mail, for the most part, remains subject to the same set of laws the rest of my life is subject to.
Three points I'd pull out of that:
1) Email the protocols is a mess. Email the system is compromised on multiple levels, (usually) insecure, the "improvements" often create more pain than gain. But the "cures" are (IMHO) universally worse.
2) A Federated system makes it possible for commercial entities to jump in, make money, and have a big presence without automatically being in full control. Google doesn't really control mail in the same way that, say, Facebook controls Facebook, Facebook Messenger, and (now) WhatsApp. Federated systems have a built-in resistance to becoming a monopoly.
3) A Federated system doesn't guarantee freedom for users, "Digital Democracy" or anything else down that path. Just because a given federated system resists monopoly doesn't mean it can't become one. But it remains a (very) useful tool.
Separate to email I want to mention Mastadon again. In the context of the original article I feel like I'm really missing something. The author (and a couple of comments) seem to be trying to tear down something that, to me, isn't that big in the first place. As I said earlier, for me the biggest point of Mastadon (or Diaspora before it, or . . . ) isn't how "federated" it is (or isn't) but that it has really had no impact on the existing social media players. It's interesting, but doesn't really warrant huge praise or criticism. What gives?
[1] Ironically the _only_ problem I've had with that hasn't come from gmail, o365, or yahoo - it's actually a small Australian ISP who whinges about a reverse-DNS lookup issue.
Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:56 UTC (Tue)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:58 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 6, 2019 14:57 UTC (Wed)
by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039)
[Link]
Posted Mar 6, 2019 17:46 UTC (Wed)
by zaitcev (guest, #761)
[Link]
Also, allow me to interject for a moment, but
Posted Mar 5, 2019 18:00 UTC (Tue)
by rweikusat2 (subscriber, #117920)
[Link]
Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:08 UTC (Tue)
by jejb (subscriber, #6654)
[Link]
Further, the lack of federation keeps people trapped in silos. So an annoyed gmail user can switch to outlook.com and still communicate with the same bunch of people using their original email addresses. If the same user gets annoyed by whatsapp and wants to switch to hangouts, they have to persuade all their friends to switch with them because whatsapp and hangouts won't federate.
If a silo doesn't federate, the barrier to switching is orders of magnitude higher, which is why the major silos hate federation. I honestly think they'd actually remove email federation if they thought they should get away with it ... Google has been making moves to regard smaller email servers as more spammy, which seems to be an attempt to gauge the backlash involved in removing federation. After all, if you have to have a google account to talk to your hangout buddies, why shouldn't you need a gmail one to talk to your gmail ones.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 8:57 UTC (Wed)
by callegar (guest, #16148)
[Link]
Just to name a couple of issues.
1) Migration. If there is no possibility to straightforwardly migrate to another instance of the federated service, then it is obvious that all the non-professional servers are doomed from the beginning. Who would put his data on a server that may need to be discontinued without any assurance that he/she can migrate it elsewhere without too much effort. For instance, I think that this is the main reason why the mastodon users all concentrate on 3 servers.
2) Poor support for things that users expect to be global. If you have a social-network like service or a chat/voice/voice+video communication service you expect to be able to search the person you want to talk to "globally". This is one of the reasons why things like facebook or skype are so successful. Once someone tells you "I'm on facebook" or "I'm on skype", even if you are not told the username or you forget it, you are typically able to find him/her. In many federated systems, search only works at the level of the single server you are on, and this means that in terms of features and easiness of use, you would be better off if there were only one server.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 17:37 UTC (Wed)
by zaitcev (guest, #761)
[Link] (6 responses)
> Do your friends?
> Does your grandmother?
> Setting up a mail server often is time-consuming, ad hoc, and brittle; despite technical literacy and the hours I poured in, I continue to have problems with my e-mail delivery.
There is still a problem of DDoS though. But she's not even there.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 18:53 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 6, 2019 21:42 UTC (Wed)
by bfields (subscriber, #19510)
[Link]
It's not that it's rocket science, or even that it takes *that* much time in absolute terms. It's just that I depend on it, so if something goes wrong I have to drop everything and fix it now, which generally means relearning a bunch of fairly boring stuff that I haven't had to think about in a long time.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:00 UTC (Wed)
by dkg (subscriber, #55359)
[Link]
Sorry, but e-mail deliverability in the current era is far from "basic computing". There are a tremendous number of details (both technical and social) that a successful mailserver operator needs to not only be aware of in theory, but also actively monitor and respond to. If you run your own mailserver and you don't put a noticable amount of time into it, i can only imagine that your mail isn't being correctly delivered on the Internet today. I don't think I agree with all of the conclusions in Rozenzweig's article, but claiming she is not technically competent for stating the plain truth is both unpleasant and spuriously dismissive without actually engaging with the arguments advanced in the piece. Please hold yourself to a higher level of discussion here on LWN.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:22 UTC (Wed)
by daniels (subscriber, #16193)
[Link]
How and why do you think this is an acceptable thing to post? I'd be very saddened if unsolicited personal abuse (even if it was accurate, which it objectively isn't) was considered OK on LWN these days.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:57 UTC (Wed)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
But even if it were, that sort of comment is uncalled for here; please do not attack people in that way.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:44 UTC (Fri)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link]
> > Setting up a mail server often is time-consuming, ad hoc, and brittle; despite technical literacy and the hours I poured in, I continue to have problems with my e-mail delivery.
Proof: "an email server is basic computing".
qed.
Posted Mar 6, 2019 20:01 UTC (Wed)
by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039)
[Link]
I remember well that before Gmail came Yahoo! Mail, and before that Hotmail; I remember, too, that before Wikipedia and DuckDuckGo I went to Google for information, and before that Yahoo!, and before that Altavista, and before that Infoseek. Internet mail was not re-invented each time; the Web was not re-invented each time.
Federation works.
Posted Mar 7, 2019 14:42 UTC (Thu)
by grothesque (guest, #130832)
[Link] (5 responses)
With that point taken, the next question that arises is: how to turn email into a more democratic online service?
I wonder if Alyssa or anyone else has ideas on how a viable business model for a more democratic email service could look like. I guess that it would have to somehow provide additional benefit through community interaction, like Wikipedia does. Privacy-respecting traditional email providers do exist, but are obviously not successful compared to the monopolist.
Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:37 UTC (Thu)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Step 1: Get FCC to clarify that ToS home server prohibition is a clear form of network neutrality violation (blocking based on type of application, service or device type (server is a type of device)).
Step 2: Watch as the evolutionary pace of traditional FOSS email service solutions increases in correlation with the number of people who can (in clear conscience with not violating their voluntarily agreed to business contractual obligations with their ISP) test and try out new solutions. And just like compound interest, every bit of that advancement compounds through time, leading to my projections of exponentially advanced pace of FOSS home server software evolution.
Step 3: Profit from that much greater societal access to Free Speech independent of unnecessary potential censors.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 0:34 UTC (Fri)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (3 responses)
I see two main issues.
The first is software. Most MTAs are excessively configurable. Most of us don't need that. A packaged and configure MTA that would let me easily try a new version, or roll-back to the old version would remove a lot of the admin headaches that have been mentioned. This would be given away as a loss-leader. It would probably include IMAP service and a web-mail interface (roundcube??).
The second is connectivity and is primarily about trust, though for people who have obnoxious ISPs, firewall-transition is also important.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:40 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's not really getting any more popular.
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:56 UTC (Fri)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link]
Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:07 UTC (Fri)
by Garak (guest, #99377)
[Link]
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
But look at that graph. Calling this distribution a power law would be generous to say the least. There is a massive spike corresponding to just a few instances, and the rest of the graph is nearly invisible to the naked eye, so tiny and so overshadowed by just a few giants. Frankly, this distribution is closer to the Dirac delta function than a power law.
If the log-log graph doesn't approximately follow a power law straight line, then the author should be able to, you know, show us?
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
'killers' he called them on his 15 season NBC show
'killers' he called them on his 15 season NBC show
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel
the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel
the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel
the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel
Yes. As we know the US is the only country on Earth and FCC is The Supreme Authority that forces everybody to bend their knee before the Inviolable Omnipotent FCC Rules.
the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel
Yes. As we know the US is the only country on Earth and FCC is The Supreme Authority that forces everybody to bend their knee before the Inviolable Omnipotent FCC Rules.
You are wrong, there is this country called China. They had this thing in the news in and around Tienanmen Square three decades ago. You might try looking it up on google. But the answer you get might depend on whether you are in china. It's a big picture. An issue of importance worthy of more respect than you are giving it. But, trolls gonna troll.
Seriously though- to any Chinese children or adults reading this- Do not listen to my advice, it may be harmful for your health. More or less harm than the daily air pollution you face, I couldn't say with certainty, and wouldn't hazard a guess. And certainly wouldn't hazard taking the word of my local newspaper's journalists on the matter. Not that the wiser among us blindly take the word of our local journalists on this side of the pond either.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
free as in water
free as in water
apples and oranges
apples and oranges
censorship
censorship
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
naked troll alert
> fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
It is certainly true that Free Speech, and Freedom more generally are often used in the service of double plus ungoodness. Such is the price we all pay to enjoy their benefits. But I'll take that tradeoff any day of my life.
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.naked troll alert
read the plentiful lines
naked troll alert
Wol
censorship
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
censorship
censorship
Joachim
censorship
And how a box at home will help it? It's even worse - your home box can easily be confiscated.
censorship
> And how a box at home will help it?
Don't move the goal posts.
censorship
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.
No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.
censorship
> > Don't move the goal posts.
> I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME".
> TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
> When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.
> No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.
censorship
Maybe not this branch of the thread, but its peer is about home servers explicitly.
In the US right now the "free speech advocates" almost invariably turn out to be Nazis/racists or crazies.
Nope. I saw that the value of self-controlled communication services is pretty much zero. GMail or Facebook turned out to be more helpful.
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
> This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better. The two of us have gone over the issue in as much depth in multiple prior LWN comment threads. The FCC angle was something I added to the article's discussion comment thread. Cyberax steadfastly holds the position that my angle does not represent good thinking on the subject. I have come to the conclusion that Cyberax is a troll or has some personal stake that isn't clear to me yet explaining their opposition to my FCC issue.
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.
Don't move your excuses.
While I mocked the mocking/hyberbolic reference to unrealistic dreams in the beginning of the article in another comment, it happens to be true that one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe. We should have the freedom to architect our own 'echo chambers' :) (one of the first domains I registered was 'filteredperception.org'. Empowering people to more efficiently filter their own perception of the internet is worth doing I think)
You might just try ignoring Cyberax until then, or perhaps theorize the account holder has deployed an annoying chatbot. Whatever works...
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.
filtered/richlycontextualized perception
[me]> Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better.
On the subject of
[Cyberax]- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe.
A quick hack that comes to mind would be adding a link to every comment which goes to a page of links to prior comments of that commenter responding to the same individual. Or a generated list of search results based on a search of the commenter's past comments using the current comment as the search terms. Not quite a federated next generation slashdot frenemy reputation filtering, but perhaps facilitating easier gleaming of long term conversational insights.
network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion
Wol
our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech
[Wol]: I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him
I do remeber your words. I'm wise enough to know when to end a conversation permanently. Please refrain from replying directly to any comments of mine in the future, I will make the same effort.
[Also Wol elsewhere]: And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat".
A wise troll once said "The line between trollness and non-trollness is not a line drawn on a map or in the sand between people. It is a line drawn down the heart of each and every one of us."
our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech
Sounds especially ironic from a free-speech advocate.
magic words
magic words
magic words
magic words
censorship
censorship
What does reCaptcha has to do with right-wing whiners?
censorship
apples and oranges
apples and oranges
So does your home server hard drive...
backup copies and choosing where to physically store important data
apples and oranges
apples and oranges
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Wol
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Most countries that like to call themselves "democracies" are actually nothing of the sort, they are "representative governments" - we call ourselves a "parliamentary democracy" but, seeing as we vote representatives into parliament who then mostly vote as their party leaders tell them to, that's hardly democratic *or* representative.
Well, this is what you get when things are going as planned, or when it is clear that whatever happens things will mostly still kinda work, or when there is one obvious answer and everyone agrees (e.g. often in wartime, but also most of the time in peacetime too). We are observing at present in the UK what happens when that machinery breaks down because the people in power are inflexible or manipulable enough that they are listening to only small interest groups who are trying to drive everything off a cliff for their own reasons (Rees-Mogg has personally made £7m from Brexit so far: why's he in favour of it? I can't imagine: he doesn't care if it hurts the mostly poor people he represents, since he thinks they're *meant* to be poor and he's their manor lord, yes, seriously). What's happening? Suddenly Parliament has grown teeth and is biting back, and oh look even though rarely used those teeth do in fact appear to be quite sharp still.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Maybe I'm just part of those disenfranchised westerns, but wouldn't a cow think (rightly) that life at the farm is "overall, safer than elsewere"?
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Wol
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
a) Other people can communicate with me just fine, with the workflow they know
b) Communication doesn't need to "escape" to an external party unless really needed.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
+1 generally, but I'll reiterate my pet theory here-home server prohibition matters i think
I think there is a general conspiracy[*] to tilt the playing field against the home server utilizer. I think this conspiracy profits those pursuing the centralized model. I think that if home server prohibition had been addressed by the net neutrality proponents (other than me and a seemingly very few others), I believe that we would have seen things like squirrelmail evolve into dramatically more appealing solutions than gmail. I haven't read the full article yet, but I hope Rosenzweig mentioned the issue of lowest-cost-tier common ISP home server prohibition. And again, it doesn't matter if the ISP doesn't even enforce it, as long as it is in the ToS it IMO radically shifts the motivational dynamic for home server software developers to the point that home server software of viable quality does not get developed in significant enough quantity to be more clearly relevant to the masses.
Though generally +1 again, reiterating that what's more important than decentralization-sans-behemoths is a decentralizable *option/platform* available to all. It's just like Free Speech generally. The important thing isn't that everybody is churning out some steady amount of Free Speech. The important thing is that everybody *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO* (without being taxed by some unnecessary thug/advertiser middleperson/serveroperator).
[*]
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/google-we-can-ban-servers-on-fiber-without-violating-net-neutrality/
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/google-fiber-now-explicitly-permits-home-servers/
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7522219498.pdf
http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121024.pdf
http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121024.txt
home server prohibition matters i think
home server prohibition matters i think
home server prohibition matters i think
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Are you pointing out that you can't just comment on or modify or add-to most other people's web sites (duh), or that it somehow isn't possible to publish your own content (write) on the web in general?
(federatable) web overlay commentary/etc
Are you pointing out that you can't just comment on or modify or add-to most other people's web sites (duh),
Actually that sounds a lot like something I recall g+ having deployed a few years back. The ability to +1 arbitrary pages, maybe comment as well. Of course the non-evil way to go about accomplishing that would be to utilize a federated network of such overlay content stored locally or otherwise under the netizen's control. I.e. no need for a centralized (commercial) big player to have control over the data involved (and utilizing every means possible to extract as much profit from access to the data as well as dominating/influencing the implementation details)
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
up/down asymmetry engineering, terms of service, disincentives, supply and demand
up/down asymmetry engineering, terms of service, disincentives, supply and demand
television 3.0
television 3.0
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
chokepoint/s
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
There are powerful economic interests working to prevents internet users to be able to transfer large files in a decentralized way.
This has nothing to do with user capability. People are doing much more difficult tasks all the time.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Even if IPV6 happens to completely replace IPV4, it might eventually get NATted too as a way for ISP to differentiate plans and users.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
for-profit ISPs
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Replacing one fallacy with another
b) It degenerates rapidly (IMO) into under-defined jargon - e.g. "information dictatorship" and "information anarchy".
c) (the point I'm going to expand on) It talks about federation as a "fallacy" then presents a false dichotomy.
In reality, guess how many instances encompass half of the user base. Maybe 1,000? Alright, there are some big instances in there, so perhaps 100? Well, there are a lot of really tiny instances mixed in, so possibly only 20?
"
Also, that covers 50.8% of users. That means that 49.2% of users are on nodes other than those three.
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
castles made of sand and fallacies made of straw
Separate to email I want to mention Mastadon again. In the context of the original article I feel like I'm really missing something. The author (and a couple of comments) seem to be trying to tear down something that, to me, isn't that big in the first place. As I said earlier, for me the biggest point of Mastadon (or Diaspora before it, or . . . ) isn't how "federated" it is (or isn't) but that it has really had no impact on the existing social media players. It's interesting, but doesn't really warrant huge praise or criticism. What gives?
To me, the biggest point of FOSS decentralized/federated communication platforms ('social media players') isn't about federatedness, or even impact on existing high-usercount platforms. To me the biggest point is Free Speech. From that perspective, the derived value of 'federatedness' comes into play. As each large-outlier member of the federation becomes a too-attractive chokepoint target for those who would wish to censor or 'shape the human terrain' of the free speech within that realm. While I still haven't read the whole article, I will point to the second paragraph-
Thus, permeating the community are calls for decentralisation. To attack the
information silos, corporate conglomerates, and governmental surveillance,
decentralisation calls for individuals to host servers for their own computing,
rather than defaulting on the servers of those rich in data.
First I think there is a fallacy with the phrasing of 'decentralisation' as an entity. It's perhaps more important to understand that the 'permeating calls for decentralization' are on a political spectrum as diverse as the spectrum of (in the US) democrats and republicans and libertarians and christians and muslims and jews. I.e. I think the false assumption is that the important aspect of those 'permeating calls' is maximization of decentralization, versus maximization of free speech capability and/or privacy concerns.
In general the article seems a bit agenda/narrative pushing to me. 'unbridled aura' in the first sentence triggers my suspicion that someone has a 'bridling' narrative/agenda they are pushing.
Immediately in the third graf we get
In the decentralised dream, every user hosts their own server. Every toddler
and grandmother is required to become their own system administrator.
This seems to be a strawman narrative attacking people with positions such as mine. Strawman because it mischaracterizes the 'call for decentralization' into an extreme 'every toddler and grandmonther is required to...'.
That reads to me like someone who is trying to smear positions such as mine that advocate (see other comments) every *adult* *have the option*(not the requirement) to become their own system administrator. And that such *options*(NOT REQUIREMENTS) are a critically necessary aspect of achieving real hard-line Free Speech on the global information superhighway.
My apologies to the author if the toddler/grandmother issue is something they are responding to, versus creating. But from the tone of the first few paragraphs I get the impression Rosenzweig is either pushing, or completely falling for the toddler/grandmother/sysadmin anti-home-server narrative.
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
Replacing one fallacy with another
https://zaitcev.livejournal.com/251546.html
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Yes
Yes, why
I had two and both are dead, so no to that
Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
As are more than 99% of the general population.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
Ensuring email delivery is anything but a "basic computing" task.
Email delivery
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
> Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.
Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy
How to democratize email?
How to democratize email?
How to democratize email?
Allowing every host to send unauthenticated mail to every other host is one of the reasons that email is a pain. We can go part-way without going to full centralization.
Maybe there is a business opportunity to provide authenticated SMTP services.
My MTA-in-a-box connects to the service that I pay a small sum for, authenticates as me, and delivers email. Then it uses the ETRN STMP command to switch roles and starts receiving email addressed for me.
The provider establishes reciprocal agreements with other providers - they promise to only send authenticated and paid for email, and agree to receive similarly authenticated email.
These providers also to spam tagging, and maybe even filtered when they have 99.9% certainty that it is unwanted.
I pay about $20 a year for a domain name. I could easily pay a similar amount for trouble-free self-hosted email.
How to democratize email?
How to democratize email?
How to better federate and decentralize email?
We can go part-way without going to full centralization. Maybe there is a business opportunity to provide authenticated SMTP services. My MTA-in-a-box connects to the service that I pay a small sum for, [...] I pay about $20 a year for a domain name. I could easily pay a similar amount for trouble-free self-hosted email.
The $20/yr domain name registration factor seems trivial to get around (subdomain registrar, poor people can live with an extra domain, or utilizing alternate dns root servers. I think an important dynamic is that if home server prohibition ToS were cracked down on by the FCC, the lower barrier to operating dns servers, such as those alternates as well as the per-end-user registered subdomain authoritative servers. The price per end-user there should approach approximately zero with no trouble. Your authenticated SMTP servers are more or less common already- I pay <$5/month to a popular provider. However were the home server prohibition ToS forcefully repealed by the FCC, providing that service seems easy enough that it too should drop to practically nothing (maybe $0.05/mo). Likewise you'd want a similar network of service providers facilitating redundancy buffers/queueing as well offfsite online encrypted backup storage. Again, if everyone who wanted to could set up their own linux server at home and operate such a service, perhaps charging in cryptocurrency, or reciprocal service tokens/credits (perhaps in cryptocurrency form), then those services also should become available on the order of pennies per month.
Domain registration prices are a total scam intricately tied to the anti-home-server conspiracy.