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Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Here's a lengthy piece from Alyssa Rosenzweig on preserving freedom despite the inevitable centralization of successful information services. "Indeed, it seems all networked systems tend towards centralisation as the natural consequence of growth. Some systems, both legitimate and illegitimate, are intentionally designed for centralisation. Other systems, like those in the Mastodon universe, are specifically designed to avoid centralisation, but even these succumb to the centralised black hole as their user bases grow towards the event horizon."

to post comments

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 16:14 UTC (Mon) by bersl2 (guest, #34928) [Link] (3 responses)

But look at that graph. Calling this distribution a power law would be generous to say the least. There is a massive spike corresponding to just a few instances, and the rest of the graph is nearly invisible to the naked eye, so tiny and so overshadowed by just a few giants. Frankly, this distribution is closer to the Dirac delta function than a power law.
If the log-log graph doesn't approximately follow a power law straight line, then the author should be able to, you know, show us?

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 17:25 UTC (Mon) by alyssa (guest, #130775) [Link] (2 responses)

(Author here) Here is the same data, plotted with the logarithm taken of both axes (with a +1 snuck into the logarithm of the X to avoid a logarithm domain error) https://rosenzweig.io/Mastodon-users-log-log.png

Yes, it's a power law, but a very, very, very steep one at that. Mathematically, you're right, thank you for pointing this out. But even with the data normalized like this, this does not paint a promising picture of decentralization.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 18:12 UTC (Mon) by bersl2 (guest, #34928) [Link]

Ah, thank you.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:43 UTC (Thu) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

Great article. With precisely zero (0) snark, but the issue you raise seems related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour

Human beings do this with politics as much as technology: let those who really groove on communications electronics figure out how to both design and regulate my handset, so I can bother my pretty head* with other matters.

Possibly what's needful is a discussion on how we manage to put "enough" time into limiting the centralization of information management. Promises to be a challenge.

*It's not actually pretty.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 18:50 UTC (Mon) by Deleted user 129183 (guest, #129183) [Link] (55 responses)

Since I cannot comment on Rosenzweig’s website (like everywhere in 2019…), I’ll comment here:

> In the decentralised dream, every user hosts their own server. Every toddler and grandmother is required to become their own system administrator. This dream is an accessibility nightmare, for if advanced technical skills are the price to privacy, all but the technocratic elite are walled off from freedom.

Not only an accessibility nightmare, but also a monetary nightmare. Not everybody can afford their own server, domain, et cetera. Actual money can be also price for privacy, and that means that all but economical elite are walled off from freedom.

The compromise – hosting a system for oneself and for one’s friends – doesn’t help much. I’m actually in charge of a small Internet community (kinda relevantly, democratic – I was elected to the position), and we would really want to self-host our mailing list – but we can’t really do it, all we can afford is a shared server that makes setting it all up practically impossible. So we use an external centralised mailing list service for lack of the better options.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:58 UTC (Mon) by deiter (guest, #130779) [Link] (54 responses)

The latest mobile phones are far faster than email servers were two decades ago, and are able to run HTML servers (if you don't believe me, download the VLC app). Cloud VPSes can cost less than $25 a year. Domains cost $10, but free dynamic dns services mean if you're okay with something a bit off-brand, you can afford it.

Most people would have trouble using a package manager, but in terms of affording a "server, domain, et cetera", all of those cost less than a cell phone and plan.

>So we use an external centralised mailing list service for lack of the better options.

Are you sure you need a mailing list? Many web forums allow one to subscribe to a topic.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 8:31 UTC (Tue) by osma (subscriber, #6912) [Link] (13 responses)

I think it's a mistake to focus on the monetary cost of hosting your own services. If you pick cheap options it's not that much, as pointed out above.

With e-mail, the main problem I see is spam. Hosting your own mail server pretty soon becomes a daunting task of keeping out all the junk. Yes there are tools like SpamAssassin that can help - when configured well, which requires a lot of studying and experimentation to get right, and the situation keeps evolving so you have to keep maintaining it to stay on top of the situation.

With web servers the situation is similar: it's pretty easy to follow tutorials to set up a LAMP stack and for example WordPress, but then you have to keep defending your installation from intruders, comment spammers and the like.

It can be a fun challenge for a while if you have the right mindset but eventually it gets tedious. With hosted services run by big companies, they do all the housekeeping for you, but usually they also ask for either your money or your privacy (or both) in return.

(I've run a public mail server and an increasing number of public-facing web servers since around 2000)

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 10:41 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

If you use a static site generator and don't support comments, or outsource comment features, then running your own site is pretty low-effort. I help run a small church Web site and it's not much work (and we even use a Joomla monstrosity instead of a static site generator which would make much more sense).

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:56 UTC (Tue) by ale2018 (guest, #128727) [Link] (2 responses)

> I think it's a mistake to focus on the monetary cost of hosting your own services. If you pick cheap options it's not that much, as pointed out above.

I'd rather pay for my own disks than keep my mail in the cloud. I don't see the privacy guarantees of the latter. As a matter of facts, the majority of servers encrypt mail in transit, but a very meager subset of users applies end-to-end encryption. So, knowing who can read your disk makes a difference.

IME, most of the effort and cost of maintaining a mail server is related to the connection; for example, an HDSL line with fixed addresses registered at RIPE along with your own abuse contact. Most ISPs in my country unfairly require a VAT number for a fixed address, and no-one registers an abuse address for you.

> With e-mail, the main problem I see is spam. Hosting your own mail server pretty soon becomes a daunting task of keeping out all the junk.

The "economies of scale" in this case allow a server to classify senders. No email message arrives at Google's servers from an unknown sender. On the opposite, my tiny server meets ~40 new domains every day. I use lists, such as Spamhaus and DNSWL, which is still a kind of centralization.

The spam problem is physiologic. Lots of money revolves around advertising. And many people still consider the merchant-customer relationship akin to the predator-prey one. The challenge, and the dream, is to change their mind.

> they also ask for either your money or your privacy (or both) in return.

Exactly!

'killers' he called them on his 15 season NBC show

Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:21 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (1 responses)

"And many people still consider the merchant-customer relationship akin to the predator-prey one. The challenge, and the dream, is to change their mind."

Or we can try to change yours. I'm sure Google and Microsoft before them would be happier if consumers knew their place and stopped complaining to their representatives urging regulation of 'predatory' business practices.

Perhaps Snowden ushered in a pendulum swing, but prior to 2013 I certainly felt that not enough people recognized the predator-prey nature of their relationships to technology and multibillion dollar international tech companies. I don't think that pendulum has swung too far yet. That's one hell of a capitalist predator we have in the oval office these days...

LOVINT...

'killers' he called them on his 15 season NBC show

Posted Mar 18, 2019 14:59 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think ale2018's complaint may have been that the *businesspeople* too frequently consider their relationship with their customers to be a predator's with its prey, rather than, perhaps, trying to make money by doing things that would help their customers. Parasitism is a common lifestyle, but it's not one that anyone other than the parasites much likes.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 13:03 UTC (Tue) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link] (1 responses)

> With e-mail, the main problem I see is spam

The main problem I see is that "residental" IPs are all on black lists. Most large email providers will not accept SMTP connections from such blacklisted IPs. I've not tested to see if that's any different if you set up SPF/DKIM and friends, but I wouldn't expect it to work. It's a walled garden world.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 17:46 UTC (Tue) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

Exactly. This is the other side of it being hard for a residential user to keep the spam out because they can't recognize all the spam generating servers. Big companies like Google can't either, but they can get away with ignoring all the small servers and leave the problems this creates for others to deal with.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 17:02 UTC (Tue) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (5 responses)

On the other hand, the social costs of running your own infrastructure are based on how the system works. There may not currently be a system that avoids those costs, but if the monetary costs are minimal, it's worth trying to design a federated system to minimize the social costs, since people would be able to run it if you succeed.

the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel

Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:17 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (4 responses)

indeed, platforms and fields of dreams (to reference a theme from my college networking textbook). The problem I've been harping on is that with the ToS 'conspiracy' most people aren't able to run anything characterizable as a 'server' on their common lowest-cost-tier internet service (with a clear conscience of not knowingly violating the contractual terms of service they 'voluntarily' agreed to when choosing to do business with one of their many wonderful capitalistic choices of ISP, har har)

the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel

Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:04 UTC (Tue) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (3 responses)

True, but the federated system might be no more or less of a server than a web browser pointed at gmail is (when your gmail account receives a message, traffic goes to your browser), or an IoT light switch (user interaction initiated over the internet causes a device that was doing nothing to do something). There are various clever tricks for forming a session between two endpoints that are both clients for ToS purposes, and I don't see any reason these couldn't be used for federated messaging.

You might end up with a system where some participants do session negotiation work in addition to transmitting messages that involve them, but that doesn't have to matter from a user perspective.

the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel

Posted Mar 6, 2019 1:53 UTC (Wed) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (2 responses)

all correct(*), but the larger problem I see lies in the fact that if you want to be a home server software developer with traditional financial security earned via your tradecraft, you don't want to sell/ship any kind of product that makes you legally liable for inducing others to violate legitimate business contracts they had entered into voluntarily. And more importantly, and bank financing you, or investors legally doing due diligence, may have similar misgivings. Thus impacting the overall state of the art/industry

Which just means that I think there would be a world of difference in the state of the art (today, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years from now...) if the FCC had specified that server prohibition ToS is a functionally and legally equivalent form of the net neutrality violation of blocking based on application, service, or device type. I suspect most in this audience can see the functional equivalence (in the case of people who choose to read and obey that extremely small fraction of the very wordy contractual terms of service). However most of the general public may not understand that. Generational effects may change that however.

(*) it does matter _a little_ for the user perspective, in a sense. The hope might be that it matters so little for long enough that other factors eventually obviate it and make it a moot point.

the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel

Posted Mar 6, 2019 5:56 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Which just means that I think there would be a world of difference in the state of the art (today, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years from now...) if the FCC had specified that server prohibition ToS is a functionally and legally equivalent form of the net neutrality violation of blocking based on application, service, or device type.
Yes. As we know the US is the only country on Earth and FCC is The Supreme Authority that forces everybody to bend their knee before the Inviolable Omnipotent FCC Rules.

Other countries have many ISPs that can't care less about running home servers. Situation is not different at all there - the reason why home servers are not used is not a legal regulation or a contractual claus, it's the inefficiency and cost of doing it.

the internet versus the price of ink by the barrel

Posted Mar 7, 2019 16:57 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

Yes. As we know the US is the only country on Earth and FCC is The Supreme Authority that forces everybody to bend their knee before the Inviolable Omnipotent FCC Rules.
You are wrong, there is this country called China. They had this thing in the news in and around Tienanmen Square three decades ago. You might try looking it up on google. But the answer you get might depend on whether you are in china. It's a big picture. An issue of importance worthy of more respect than you are giving it. But, trolls gonna troll.

Seriously though- to any Chinese children or adults reading this- Do not listen to my advice, it may be harmful for your health. More or less harm than the daily air pollution you face, I couldn't say with certainty, and wouldn't hazard a guess. And certainly wouldn't hazard taking the word of my local newspaper's journalists on the matter. Not that the wiser among us blindly take the word of our local journalists on this side of the pond either.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:39 UTC (Wed) by 0A (guest, #126874) [Link]

There are different costs in play there.

If you just want an email server where you can receive any email from other people, without $COMPANY technically having access to them, or 'deciding' which mails are worth appearing into your inbox or not, it is relatively easy.

However, if you also want not to receive _certain_ emails, that is a different, and harder, problem. We enter into the realm of deciding which emails you _want_ and which not. And yes, the algorithms used by Gmail would probably be better than a bare SpamAssessin/rspamd, if anything for the amount of email that they can peek into in order to detect mass-campaigns. However, they too have false positives, and sometimes mark legitimate messages as spam. So if you delegate into their antispam for organising your inbox, you also have to bear their failures (of course, you can't "just" import their antispam without also using other pieces).

Depending on your email flow, that may not be such a problem. You may eg. prefer to review manually every received email, and create -if needed- local rules on your MUA. Or go the opposite way and only let direct access to your inbox from a few whitelisted domains/users.

In fact, for the scenario by Polynka of a small community, it should be easy to use a mailing list that needs approval and where only subscribers can send.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 9:17 UTC (Tue) by grawity (subscriber, #80596) [Link] (39 responses)

> Cloud VPSes can cost less than $25 a year

Under the assumption that you have the technical means to pay for it. I got my first email account when I was 11, but I couldn't get a bank card capable of making online payments until 18.

(Not that VPSes were anywhere as common or as cheap at that time, either...)

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 19:46 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (38 responses)

If you want to run a server then you need Internet connectivity, a computer to run it and money to pay for electricity for its upkeep.

free as in water

Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:23 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (35 responses)

and in the modern age, all of those things ought to be as accessible to the penniless as a glass of water, daily bread, a cot, and some kind of reasonable shelter. Giving people access to Free Speech on the Global Information Superhighway is not more expensive to society than providing a free glass of tap water at any restaurant. I.e. a razpi, the electricity to run it, and the added cost to the local cable modem utility corporation are as justifiable in the modern age as the cost of all those free glasses of water.

free as in water

Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:43 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (34 responses)

The cost of one RPi would be enough to run a small VPS for a year. It will get even worse once cloud ARM64 servers become more prevalent.

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:09 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (33 responses)

A server in the hand is better than a flock of them in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit instead of yours.

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 5, 2019 21:20 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (31 responses)

Why is it better? I don't generate my own electricity, grow my food, purify my water or mine oil and distill gasoline. Why is server hosting any different?

censorship

Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:28 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (26 responses)

fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.

Again, the important thing isn't that everyone is saying things that require them to have extreme lack of communication channel censors. The important thing is that everyone *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO*. It may just be my USA democracy/freespeech propaganda upbringing talking here, but I think it's critically important to the health of democracy to hold a hard-line on free speech issues. And messily complicated as it is to draw the whole of modern internet technology into the equation, I think it's necessary to do so. And from my understanding of things, the ability to host your own server facilitating such minimization of external censorship opportunities, is a necessary part of that equation.

censorship

Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:28 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (25 responses)

> fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.

When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.

naked troll alert

Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:34 UTC (Wed) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (3 responses)

> fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.

When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.
It is certainly true that Free Speech, and Freedom more generally are often used in the service of double plus ungoodness. Such is the price we all pay to enjoy their benefits. But I'll take that tradeoff any day of my life.

naked troll alert

Posted Mar 6, 2019 5:49 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

And so how home servers are going to help the Freedom of Speech?

read the plentiful lines

Posted Mar 7, 2019 3:08 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

see my other comments

naked troll alert

Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:28 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> But I'll take that tradeoff any day of my life.

That's your choice, but you don't have the *right* to *force* that trade-off on to me.

"fast, cheap, good. Pick any two ..." There's a whole bunch of things people desire that fall in to this category - choosing one inevitably means you lose another. Just because YOU value freedom of speech above other things, doesn't mean I do.

And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat". The American constitutional right "to pursue happiness" all too often means *REDUCING* the total happiness (happiness is not zero-sum...). There's plenty more I could come up with if I thought about it ... :-)

A lot of non-USians see the US as a greedy self-centred bully, and that sort of attitude re-inforces that view. Yes we may not have been any better in our heyday, but I hope some of us have learnt. I'm not sure, though, given the Little England mentality of "let's put the 'Great' back in to Great Britain".

Cheers,
Wol

censorship

Posted Mar 6, 2019 16:15 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (1 responses)

TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.

When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.

That's totally unfair. Sometimes when they moan about freedom of speech it's about attempts to block spam, false advertising, and other forms of commercial fraud.

censorship

Posted Mar 7, 2019 18:43 UTC (Thu) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

Ha! You pampered, spoiled first-worlders...

Down here in our small corner of Latin America, some of us still value free speech because some of us have seen (as recently as the 1980s and 1990s) our relatives being tortured and killed for investigating government corruption...

Cría cuervos, e te bicarán los ojos...

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:33 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (15 responses)

My friends in Nicaragua beg to differ. They live in a civil war and they would very much like to have the freedom of speech that you write about so derogatory.

Many years ago, I had acquaintances in China who ended up in prison because they exercised their ideal of "freedom of speech". I think they see it different than you, too.

Please note: Neither the USA nor other 1st world countries are the whole world.

Cheers,
Joachim

PS: I'm from a country where neo-Nazi propaganda is illegal even on your own server, and I think that's OK. We learned the hard way that there are limits to freedom of speech *because* it is so valuable.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:39 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (14 responses)

> My friends in Nicaragua beg to differ. They live in a civil war and they would very much like to have the freedom of speech that you write about so derogatory.
And how a box at home will help it? It's even worse - your home box can easily be confiscated.

Sidenote, in Russia cloud services advertised that they are police-proof. It's very typical for corrupt local government to confiscate physical servers as a "material evidence" in a drummed-up criminal case. Even if there's no crime committed and the company is cleared in the court, its work can be paralyzed for months.

And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:56 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (13 responses)

> > My friends in Nicaragua beg to differ. They live in a civil war and they would very much like to have the freedom of speech that you write about so derogatory.
> And how a box at home will help it?

This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
Don't move the goal posts.

> And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.

Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:58 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (12 responses)

> This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.

Don't move your excuses.

> Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:35 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (1 responses)

> > This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
> > Don't move the goal posts.
> I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME".

This thread started with

> A server in the hand is better than a flock of them in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit instead of yours.

I.e., this is about not running servers *in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit*.

I read *in the hand* as *under one's control*, as cited above. Physical location in one's house (a.k.a "at home") doesn't matter. In fact, you're right that running a server at home is usually not desirable in repressive situations.

> Don't move your excuses.

I don't move my excuses. My reaction was to your comment where you wrote

> > fewer third parties that get veto power over your Free Speech.
> TLDR; version - it'll be slightly less convenient to spew neo-Nazi or far-right propaganda.
> When somebody starts moaning about the freedom of speech it's always that.

and equated "moaning about freedom of speech" with "spewing neo-Nazi propaganda". This bold equation was the one that I reacted to.

I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.

> > Two days ago, I received the notice that the brother of one of my friends in Nicaragua was killed by government forces. Thanks a lot, but I see in real life what it means "to fix THAT problem" and I don't need your complacant comment about that -- and, btw, independently operated communication services help with the fight for fixing, even if you don't recognize that.
> No it's not. It's at best a distraction. At worst it's a diversion.

You changed context by deleting your snarky comment that this replied to. FTR:

> > And on a bigger note, if your government has no freedom of speech then work to fix THAT problem.

I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.

Well, since that's the case: I retract my expressed opinion that you wrote a complacant comment. That is not a fitting term, and here's not the proper place to express what I think about this. It seems that we live in different worlds, and since that is the case, I'll stop participating in this thread.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 8:57 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> I.e., this is about not running servers *in a cloud owned and operated by someone else for their profit*.
Maybe not this branch of the thread, but its peer is about home servers explicitly.

> I'm from Germany, I live in Germany, and I have probably more experience fighting against with "Nazi propaganda" than you, being politically active here since 4 decades. Equating "Nazi propaganda" to "moaning about free speech" (your words!) is a disservice to the quest for an open and inclusive society.
In the US right now the "free speech advocates" almost invariably turn out to be Nazis/racists or crazies.

> I.e., you cannot see the value of own-controlled communication services in a repressive society when one is on the opposition side.
Nope. I saw that the value of self-controlled communication services is pretty much zero. GMail or Facebook turned out to be more helpful.

And if you want to compete about who lived through more civil disturbance then you'll probably lose.

network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion

Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:45 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (9 responses)

> This is not about running services *at home* but about running services *under one's control*.
> Don't move the goal posts.
I'm not moving ANYTHING. The whole thread is "running services AT HOME". With the impediment being an FCC rule somewhere.

Don't move your excuses.
Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better. The two of us have gone over the issue in as much depth in multiple prior LWN comment threads. The FCC angle was something I added to the article's discussion comment thread. Cyberax steadfastly holds the position that my angle does not represent good thinking on the subject. I have come to the conclusion that Cyberax is a troll or has some personal stake that isn't clear to me yet explaining their opposition to my FCC issue.

While I mocked the mocking/hyberbolic reference to unrealistic dreams in the beginning of the article in another comment, it happens to be true that one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe. We should have the freedom to architect our own 'echo chambers' :) (one of the first domains I registered was 'filteredperception.org'. Empowering people to more efficiently filter their own perception of the internet is worth doing I think)

You might just try ignoring Cyberax until then, or perhaps theorize the account holder has deployed an annoying chatbot. Whatever works...

network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion

Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:52 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better.
- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.

filtered/richlycontextualized perception

Posted Mar 8, 2019 4:06 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

[me]> Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better.
[Cyberax]- I'm an FCC bot and I approve this message.
On the subject of
one of my longer term dreams is to see a better federated client/browser for these creativecommons lwn comments that facilitates tagging, tracking, and minimizing troll impact in the reading of these lwn discussions. Using a federated reputation system solving basically the same fundamental issue as brought up by spam-fighting in the federated email universe.
A quick hack that comes to mind would be adding a link to every comment which goes to a page of links to prior comments of that commenter responding to the same individual. Or a generated list of search results based on a search of the commenter's past comments using the current comment as the search terms. Not quite a federated next generation slashdot frenemy reputation filtering, but perhaps facilitating easier gleaming of long term conversational insights.

network neutrality is related to the issues in this discussion

Posted Mar 8, 2019 15:25 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (6 responses)

> Cyberax is a troll or a bot or something and perhaps ought to know better. The two of us have gone over the issue in as much depth in multiple prior LWN comment threads. The FCC angle was something I added to the article's discussion comment thread.

I'd be careful there ... I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him...

Remember my "cheap, fast, good" comment? Free speech is no use when you're dying from an easily-cured illness because you're too poor to afford the treatment. Value systems differ, and yours seems badly out-of-kilter with mine, and probably Cyberax's. Free Speech is worthless, if you lack the resources to make yourself heard.

Cheers,
Wol

our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech

Posted Mar 8, 2019 17:52 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (5 responses)

[Wol]: I've had my differences with Cyberax, but I see *you* as closer to a troll than him

[Also Wol elsewhere]: And, quite frankly, it seems to me all too often that "freedom of speech" is equivalent to "forcing your views down my throat".
I do remeber your words. I'm wise enough to know when to end a conversation permanently. Please refrain from replying directly to any comments of mine in the future, I will make the same effort.

A wise troll once said "The line between trollness and non-trollness is not a line drawn on a map or in the sand between people. It is a line drawn down the heart of each and every one of us."

our conversation ends at the point of implied threats to my Free Speech

Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:03 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

> I do remeber your words. I'm wise enough to know when to end a conversation permanently. Please refrain from replying directly to any comments of mine in the future, I will make the same effort.
Sounds especially ironic from a free-speech advocate.

magic words

Posted Mar 8, 2019 19:28 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (3 responses)

please cease and desist

magic words

Posted Mar 18, 2019 16:06 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

So... you think everyone should be free to respond to whatever comments they like and have unbridled free speech except when *you* disagree with them? You're even using inappropriate legal terminology ("cease and desist") to try to cast a pall of theoretical legalese over the thread-branch you dislike.

This seems like a rather inconsistent worldview (though a common one). Freedom, freedom for everyone who agrees with me! But everyone else can go hang.

magic words

Posted Mar 23, 2019 22:07 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (1 responses)

please don't overlook the subject

magic words

Posted Mar 27, 2019 15:15 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The subject? You're now doing this on every thread where people have the temerity to disagree with you. The subject appears to be 'all subjects'.

censorship

Posted Mar 8, 2019 22:31 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (2 responses)

Nice godwin. I'll be sure to remind you of it if I ever see you complaining that Recaptcha has unpersoned you from the bulk of the internet for not generating enough capital via free labour.

censorship

Posted Mar 9, 2019 1:07 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

??
What does reCaptcha has to do with right-wing whiners?

censorship

Posted Mar 22, 2019 7:44 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Don't act like one of those whiners. I was very obviously responding to a thread in which you vocally advocate for individuals relinquishing their ability to host content on the internet to cloud service gatekeepers. Have you never been slapped in the face by cloudflare telling you you're not human and demanding you submit proof to google before you're permitted to read J. Random's blog? Lucky you.

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 7, 2019 8:59 UTC (Thu) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link] (3 responses)

Cloud VPSs that are so cheap (at least in my experience) have a tendency to disappear abruptly when the company offering them closes, rebrands, etc.

Even in the lucky case that to migrate away is your own decision or that the VPS provider tells you with sufficient advance that they are shutting down your service, even on a fast internet connection moving away many tens GBs of email from the VPS can be painful and may lead you to exceed the allowed rate/month.

Furthermore, why saving your chats/posts/email at a cheap VPS provider should give you better privacy guarantees than doing it with google, amazon, facebook, etc.?

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:44 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Cloud VPSs that are so cheap (at least in my experience) have a tendency to disappear abruptly when the company offering them closes, rebrands, etc.
So does your home server hard drive...

backup copies and choosing where to physically store important data

Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:20 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

offline and offsite backups matter. I'm not sure if that task can be simplified enough for toddlers and grandmothers to handle it, but maybe somebody will rise to that challenge someday.

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:49 UTC (Mon) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

I think this is why you need a 3rd party encrypted backup solution to go with the service you buy.

apples and oranges

Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:36 UTC (Mon) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

I think their is a huge difference between:

mom-and-pop hosting provider in the same city or regional large city of which you know where the datacenter is compared to storing your stuff with Microsoft or Google.

One thing that makes life a lot easier in that case is: same jurisdiction.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 8:03 UTC (Wed) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link] (1 responses)

For me the pain point are these:

(1) dynamic IP and dynamic DNS

(2) email servers are complex beasts compared to other types of servers

---

HTTPS used to be on the list but Letsencrypt solved that

---

I think probably everybody here has the internet at home, has a spare always-on box (be it a lowly rPi or a mighty Mac Pro), but getting a fixed IP address (how does one do that?) and managing your email locally and properly without going insane (how does one do that?).

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 14:13 UTC (Wed) by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039) [Link]

Hurricane Electric runs a gratis DNS service with dynamic DNS capability. It's not perfect (in particular, they do not offer DNSSEC), but it may solve your first pain point. There's no helping the second pain point, unfortunately, but if it's any consolation Mastodon is even worse, I find. I have a mail server I've been running for five years now, and Mastodon sends me running for the hills. I still haven't worked up the courage to deal with all its dependencies.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:01 UTC (Mon) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (7 responses)

It's an interesting article. I find it largely persuasive.

I don't think Wikipedia makes a good examples of a democracy though. Maybe viewed from afar, but when you have seem the way things play out in practice, it's clearly not so much a model of a democracy, as a corrupt bureaucracy, filled with abuse, unneeded strife, cronyism, and false flags.

Then again, maybe this is closer to modern democracy than I want to believe.

Still, I think the enforced hierarchy of their system breeds many of these problems. Maybe it's worth disclaiming the specifics a bit to make your argument a little stronger.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:11 UTC (Mon) by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844) [Link] (6 responses)

I had the same feeling. The author mentions the dictatorship -> anarchy -> democracy process, missing the final link in the process, which is democracy -> oligarchy. That's what Wikipedia is, and what every government that calls itself "democratic" is, and is the inevitable consequence of the majority of people not caring about governance (and why should they).

Wikipedia's own pledge drives note that fewer than 1% of its users donate. Meanwhile, the sprawling extent of MetaWiki is a testament to how much bureaucracy is involved in Wikipedia community participation. Any non-trivial edit that you make is liable to be pounced on by a cabal of self-important rules-lawyers. The governance structure is full of so much bikeshedding and cronyism that the barrier to participate, rather than just consume the information, is insurmountable to most people. This is much like the real world: unless you are a 'career politician,' it is impossible to effect meaningful change.

The only exceptions I can think of are communities that are small enough that the entire community participates in governance, for example a small makerspace, church, hiking group, etc. From the online communities perspective, this is similar to the 'create your own server for you and your friends' model. I agree that it is not ideal, for all the reasons mentioned in the article. But real-world so-called democracies aren't ideal either, and neither is Wikipedia, so I don't agree that those are good models to emulate.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:06 UTC (Tue) by alyssa (guest, #130775) [Link] (3 responses)

(Author) I'm personally still grappling with this issue, both from an online community perspective as well as in real life politics.

I understand the issues with so-called democracies. Hailing from a Western democracy, I have inherited the cultural belief (naivete?) that the system is ~okay. As I see it, every political model conceivable is flawed, perhaps reflecting an underlying flawed human nature. Nevertheless, I remain optimistic that the system known as democracy - and I concede the reality strays from the philosophical ideal - is the best option, broken as it may be.

Even oligarchy pretending to be democracy can be de facto better than alternatives, repugnant as it is. I am well-aware of the disenfranchisement of the Western citizen, but overall, life is freer here than elsewhere. Digitally, I hope we can inherit this benefit, even if we are full-aware the pristine philosophy of the matter may be doomed from day #1.

(I sought to address this in the paragraph beginning "Granted, information democracy is not a perfect system...". I apologise for downplaying the objection in pursuit of a shred of hope, at the expense of the reasons you lay out.)

Thank you for the food for thought.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 0:32 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

As far as I'm aware, about the only country in the world that even approaches a true democracy is Switzerland.

Most countries that like to call themselves "democracies" are actually nothing of the sort, they are "representative governments" - we call ourselves a "parliamentary democracy" but, seeing as we vote representatives into parliament who then mostly vote as their party leaders tell them to, that's hardly democratic *or* representative. And for the majority of the electorate there is little real choice in our vote anyway, which is why so many people don't bother!

The problem, of course, is that as the number of people that are truly enfranchised goes up, so does the potential for rigging the system, or even just for people who don't actually have a clue mucking the system up. One only has to look at the chaos surrounding Brexit to see the havoc that a true democracy can generate ...

Cheers,
Wol

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 19, 2019 10:22 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Most countries that like to call themselves "democracies" are actually nothing of the sort, they are "representative governments" - we call ourselves a "parliamentary democracy" but, seeing as we vote representatives into parliament who then mostly vote as their party leaders tell them to, that's hardly democratic *or* representative.
Well, this is what you get when things are going as planned, or when it is clear that whatever happens things will mostly still kinda work, or when there is one obvious answer and everyone agrees (e.g. often in wartime, but also most of the time in peacetime too). We are observing at present in the UK what happens when that machinery breaks down because the people in power are inflexible or manipulable enough that they are listening to only small interest groups who are trying to drive everything off a cliff for their own reasons (Rees-Mogg has personally made £7m from Brexit so far: why's he in favour of it? I can't imagine: he doesn't care if it hurts the mostly poor people he represents, since he thinks they're *meant* to be poor and he's their manor lord, yes, seriously). What's happening? Suddenly Parliament has grown teeth and is biting back, and oh look even though rarely used those teeth do in fact appear to be quite sharp still.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 7, 2019 2:30 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

> overall, life is freer here than elsewhere.
Maybe I'm just part of those disenfranchised westerns, but wouldn't a cow think (rightly) that life at the farm is "overall, safer than elsewere"?

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:19 UTC (Tue) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] (1 responses)

(May I offer the following disruptive thought? Make people represent their community in a manner like jury service. At some point you'll be called up, paid reasonably for your time and made responsible for the impact of your choices on your people.)

K3n.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 10, 2019 15:23 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> paid reasonably for your time

Sounds like you've never served on a jury ...

Neither have I but everyone I've talked to has said it leaves you rather badly out-of-pocket, as you're paid a miserly daily allowance, plus expenses, which is usually worth far less than the (usually) unpaid leave you're forced to take.

Oh - and over here, getting out of jury service is doable but not easy. Unlike the American system where you just get yourself challenged and thrown off, here it's more like "who's the next twelve? In you go ..." and it's *HARD* for either defence or prosecution to get you thrown off - they need good grounds. If you're lucky, you get a trial that lasts a few days. If you're unlucky, it lasts a few months!

Cheers,
Wol

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:18 UTC (Mon) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link] (1 responses)

Both USENET and IRC ended up sending nearly everything to every server. Add on top the desired ability to search, and I have to agree about federation for people in general. Specific task- or interest-based groups may work.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 1:08 UTC (Wed) by 0A (guest, #126874) [Link]

That something can federate to someone else is already a big win. I can use a non-mainstream server and
a) Other people can communicate with me just fine, with the workflow they know
b) Communication doesn't need to "escape" to an external party unless really needed.

Of course, if I sent a wedding notice to everyone I ever met, it would be naive to expect that not to hit Microsoft or Google mail servers. Whereas if I'm passing some company info to a work colleague that sits at the next room, the logical thing would be that it shouldn't need to get out of the company, getting to his inbox passing through a third-party server hosted on another country (which is what -shockingly- many companies are doing nowadays with their mail servers, even technically competent ones).

A better example for XMPP than the mentioned WhatsApp, and the one I was expecting to see was GTalk. While WhatsApp has always been a closed system, Google Talk peered with other XMPP servers. Its UI was designed around the idea that you would connect with other Gmail users, but it allowed talking with people that were on other jabber servers, as well as connecting there with a different XMPP client if theirs didn't suit you. Many people -and communication platforms suffer greatly of this trap effect, where an individual can't migrate on its own- may not care/know about better options and use eg. Facebook chat. But if you could interoperate with other systems, it wouldn't put you in the dichotomy of migrating your conversations to that new client that works better (for you) or staying there because that's the only that your granny knows to use.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 19:45 UTC (Mon) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (13 responses)

The author seems to argue that the Web is not an example of a successfully decentralized system because extremely large companies that don't respect user privacy are able to operate on the Web and attract a large fraction of Web traffic.

This sets the bar for success unreasonably high. It means a successful decentralized system must somehow enforce norms on its participants in spheres well beyond the scope of the system itself. It also suggests a good system will somehow prevent any one participant for attracting "too much" traffic. Both of those features would imply restrictions on freedom, which would probably make people uncomfortable when you have worked out the details.

In fact the Web is a great example of a decentralized system. Contra the author, it *is* easy for anyone technical to set up a Web server and in practice a lot of people and organizations do set up their own servers and attract large amounts of traffic. (There are also numerous services to support non-technical people publishing Web content.) The standards that govern the technology are not controlled by any one company (as long as Mozilla survives). You have lots of viable choices for technology and services to set up a Web site, most of which are open-source. You also have multiple viable independent open-source clients. Web standards support delivering almost any kind of application and content. Sweeping all this decentralized goodness aside because Facebook and Youtube exist seems short-sighted.

home server prohibition matters i think

Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:32 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (3 responses)

+1 generally, but I'll reiterate my pet theory here-

I think there is a general conspiracy[*] to tilt the playing field against the home server utilizer. I think this conspiracy profits those pursuing the centralized model. I think that if home server prohibition had been addressed by the net neutrality proponents (other than me and a seemingly very few others), I believe that we would have seen things like squirrelmail evolve into dramatically more appealing solutions than gmail. I haven't read the full article yet, but I hope Rosenzweig mentioned the issue of lowest-cost-tier common ISP home server prohibition. And again, it doesn't matter if the ISP doesn't even enforce it, as long as it is in the ToS it IMO radically shifts the motivational dynamic for home server software developers to the point that home server software of viable quality does not get developed in significant enough quantity to be more clearly relevant to the masses.

Though generally +1 again, reiterating that what's more important than decentralization-sans-behemoths is a decentralizable *option/platform* available to all. It's just like Free Speech generally. The important thing isn't that everybody is churning out some steady amount of Free Speech. The important thing is that everybody *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO* (without being taxed by some unnecessary thug/advertiser middleperson/serveroperator).

[*]
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/google-we-can-ban-servers-on-fiber-without-violating-net-neutrality/
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/google-fiber-now-explicitly-permits-home-servers/
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7522219498.pdf
http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121024.pdf
http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121024.txt

home server prohibition matters i think

Posted Mar 4, 2019 21:40 UTC (Mon) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (2 responses)

> The important thing is that everybody *COULD IF THEY WANTED TO* (without being taxed by some unnecessary thug/advertiser middleperson/serveroperator).

Right. In practice it's also important that significant numbers of people *do* continually exercise the option, otherwise the systems that support the option "in theory" will atrophy. The Web does have that critical mass.

home server prohibition matters i think

Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:52 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (1 responses)

And my thesis is that if the FCC had said "wow, yeah, that's an obvious problem with network neutrality, we need to give these ISPs a basic education on the Internet Protocol's every node can be a server, client, or both functionality" then we would have seen a critical mass on the (FOSS and commercial) home server software development and userbase side that is conspicuously absent, as evidenced by the present article/discussion. But by accepting the status-quo of predominant default home server prohibition terms of service, we have an environment where many average types get the same queesy feeling about running a home server as they do downloading a recent movie via bittorrent from 'thepiratebay' or the like. And that's all the motivational impediment you need to see the prospects of the home server software developer drying up to the point they sign an nda/noncompete and their soul over for a six figure salary to one of the major profiteers of the conspiracy. Bottom line, there are some big player$ that like things as they are, and they aren't going to be disrupted without a well financed fight from their side.

home server prohibition matters i think

Posted Mar 19, 2019 10:30 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yeah right. You can tell because nobody uses Google in the UK, or Facebook. The UK has *more stringent* rules than you propose (or, in fact, it has rules that produce extensive ISP competition, and some of those ISPs not only allow but encourage you to run home servers), but I'm writing this on Chromium and I use Google for searching almost to the exclusion of all else: indeed Google has more of a stranglehold here than in the US.

I am in favour of home servers -- I run quite a lot of them -- but all your harping on the subject is doing here is proving your parochialism. Your proposed solution has been tried and it *does not work*. It does not do what you repeatedly say it will do. I wish it did, but it turns out that allowing home servers is not a panacea. It doesn't cure disease or old age either, imagine that.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:05 UTC (Mon) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link] (8 responses)

The web is nearly read-only.

Conversations and frequent interactions on small items are rather different.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:43 UTC (Tue) by areilly (subscriber, #87829) [Link] (1 responses)

What do you mean by that comment, in the light of the existence of that comment, on the web? Care to elaborate?
Are you pointing out that you can't just comment on or modify or add-to most other people's web sites (duh), or that it somehow isn't possible to publish your own content (write) on the web in general?

(federatable) web overlay commentary/etc

Posted Mar 10, 2019 7:19 UTC (Sun) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

Are you pointing out that you can't just comment on or modify or add-to most other people's web sites (duh),
Actually that sounds a lot like something I recall g+ having deployed a few years back. The ability to +1 arbitrary pages, maybe comment as well. Of course the non-evil way to go about accomplishing that would be to utilize a federated network of such overlay content stored locally or otherwise under the netizen's control. I.e. no need for a centralized (commercial) big player to have control over the data involved (and utilizing every means possible to extract as much profit from access to the data as well as dominating/influencing the implementation details)

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:53 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

The web has long-since ceased to be read-only. It's r-x or rwx nowadays, you don't get very far without surrendering to arbitrary code execution.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:05 UTC (Thu) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link] (4 responses)

Indeed, it is not by chance that the internet connection you get at home is Asymmetric (the A in ADSL), with a huge bandwidth to read and a relatively poor one to write.

This is also a significant disincentive for providing services from the home.

Cloud services, where many people need to upload files onto the cloud and get bored about waiting for the upload may lead ISPs to slightly reduce the asymmetry, though.

up/down asymmetry engineering, terms of service, disincentives, supply and demand

Posted Mar 10, 2019 7:09 UTC (Sun) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (3 responses)

I would guess the ISPs would claim they've engineered/tuned the infrastructure to best meet supply and demand. I would immediately follow that up however with the idea that the causality chain starts with the common home server prohibition ToS, leading to demand characteristics, that the ISP can then use to justify tuning their network as they do. But while I believe in the long run that asymmetry factor will decrease, I think there is so much that can be done even as things are now that it's just ridiculous(ly sad how the profiteers get away with rigging the system in that way)

up/down asymmetry engineering, terms of service, disincentives, supply and demand

Posted Mar 10, 2019 14:34 UTC (Sun) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (2 responses)

I have no particular interest in providing videos or video games with bulky audiovisual assets from my third-floor council flat, but I have plenty of interest in consuming those things, so even with a home server, I'd still have heavily asymmetric bandwidth needs.

television 3.0

Posted Mar 11, 2019 0:08 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (1 responses)

true enough. Perhaps the more important point is that there are less well known dynamics of that engineering/tuning. I.e. if the cable modem provider is offering 25Mbps down and 3Mbps up it is not simply their choice to retune to 14 up and 14 down IIRC. And if home servers were protected by a network neutrality law/policy it wouldn't take such a 50/50 balance to accomplish many usual high bandwidth things. I.e. distributed(bittorrentesque) streaming/distribution is already widely succussfully used as an alternative to paying a CDN to help mitigate the source bandwidth bottleneck issue. While of course many bittorrent peers(cough simultaneous client and server behavior cough) are not home servers with access to greater outbound bandwidth, even if you had to have 10 or 1000 100kbps peers/cdn-amplifier-nodes/homelinuxservers, the method is clearly viable for the key example of an alternative fully decentralized video distribution network able to accomplish the same things as broadcast and cable television networks.

television 3.0

Posted Mar 11, 2019 10:24 UTC (Mon) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

In large part, though, that's because the US hasn't built home Internet infrastructure; they have repurposed infrastructure designed for television (cable, DSL) for home Internet service, instead of putting in dedicated networking facilities.

This makes offering service very cheap - most of the civils have been done already in order to provide subscription TV (cable) or telephone networks (DSL - which was designed to let telcos compete with cable networks by offering TV), but also means that the compromises that make sense for TV (limited bandwidth from home to central office, much wider bandwidth from central office to home, more control of signal at central office thus higher modulation rates possible getting more bits/symbol) have to be accepted in terms of Internet access.

Fixing that requires fresh civils that replace the existing last mile networks with either dedicated copper or fibre (probably fibre nowadays, as it's cheaper in the volumes that a new network would need, and has far higher bandwidth in each direction than expensive copper - expensive copper can be good to around 5 GHz at best, but has attenuation on the order of 60 dB/km, while single mode fibre is good for around 100 THz - 100,000 GHz - with attenuation on the order of 1 dB/km).

This, in turn, requires either political willpower to spend tax money on disruptive infrastructure projects, or commercial incentives to do so rather than just providing Internet access on existing (paid-for) infrastructure. It's worth noting that in many former Soviet countries, where TV and telephone infrastructure did not exist, they're doing just that; putting in cheap fibre and running symmetric Internet services on it, because it's cheaper to do that than put in US-style TV and telephone infrastructure.

Similarly, parts of Scandinavia, Singapore, and South Korea are putting in fibre for Internet service because the political willpower is there to say "we want good Internet service, and we'll pay the price to get there, bypassing Internet over legacy installs.

Finally, in countries like the UK, there's a different route being tried to make it work commercially; we're doing fibre-to-the-cabinet (in the form of HFC cable and VDSL2 from telephone cabinets), which effectively moves the central offices closer to people's homes, and reduces the cost of replacing the old TV/telephone network with a pure fibre data-first network by making money from moving the switch to Internet services closer to people's homes. It's a lot cheaper to replace the ~300m of cable from my house to the nearest cabinet than it is to replace the ~5km of cable from my house to the central office.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 20:04 UTC (Mon) by brunowolff (guest, #71160) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think friendly centralization will really work. It will be likely co-opted by commercial interests and will be an easy pressure point for government interests. In the short term we are probably stuck with a feudal system. To make a decentralized system work, we need to make it much easier for people to run their own services and to avoid ISPs as a control point (by regulation or practical mesh networking). I don't see that happening soon.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:54 UTC (Tue) by areilly (subscriber, #87829) [Link] (1 responses)

> To make a decentralized system work, we need to make it much easier for people to run their own services and to avoid ISPs as a control point (by regulation or practical mesh networking). I don't see that happening soon.

It isn't obvious that most people want to run their own services, and those who do seem to be adequately catered to by the spectrum of alternatives between hosted and provisioned servers in a cloud of some sort, all the way down to a CMS packaged onto a raspberry PI. Anything cloud-hosted isn't obviously ISP-choked.

You can usually pay other people to do the work, or not, as suits.

chokepoint/s

Posted Mar 5, 2019 20:47 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

"Anything cloud-hosted isn't obviously ISP-choked."

I would say it's obviously twice as ISP-choked. Moving your self-operated server from your home to 'the cloud' (read: somebody else's server in somebody else's building connected to somebody else's ISP) simply increases the number of ISPs that are able to choke off that speech from the global information superhighway at their whim. As soon as you enter into a business relationship with Linode or Amazon/AWS you are curtailing the level of freedom you have to operate to satisfy their many cya-vague contractual terms of service in addition to what you have already curtailed by 'voluntarily' agreeing to your ISP's contractual terms of service.

In practical terms, it is not(*) a meter-able ever-visibly-present chokepoint, but it is as much a chokepoint as the authoritarian in control of preventing any rogue nipples from appearing on a tv-screen during certain hours of the day.

(*) of course the network traffic is measurably limited in both the home server and cloud server scenarios, the main attraction of the cloud side being that you have the option of paying more to get more bandwidth if you have a use for it.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 20:08 UTC (Mon) by szoth (guest, #14825) [Link]

This kinda steps past Anarchy as a political philosophy to engage with a straw man: "Nasty, brutish and short," etc. Which is unfortunate, because the argument about federation not working out is something that people who strive for Anarchy should care about.

It seems like this discussion is similar to what people in the crypto-currency community are realizing about governance being an unavoidable reality.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:19 UTC (Mon) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (10 responses)

There is no technical reason your internet router does not double as a web server with a simple interface.
There are powerful economic interests working to prevents internet users to be able to transfer large files in a decentralized way.
This has nothing to do with user capability. People are doing much more difficult tasks all the time.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 22:34 UTC (Mon) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (7 responses)

> There is no technical reason your internet router does not double as a web server with a simple interface.

What about IPv4 address exhaustion and carrier-grade NAT?

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:02 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

Average IPv6 penetration is at 25% now. Pretty soon we should be able to think about IPv4 as about "that legacy protocol our parents used long ago".

This being said I wonder how many users actually have that router today. I know most my friends don't have it - in fact many of them only have Internet access from phone... it would be silly to put web-server on it. Prohibitively expensive for one.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 0:50 UTC (Tue) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (2 responses)

Look at the per-country breakdown. China is at 4%. Other countries are similar or worse, including Korea (4%) and several developed European countries (Spain at 2%, Italy 3%, Denmark 3.5%, Iceland <1%).

Sure, we can probably get away with jettisoning some of those countries from our Brave New IPv6 World, but not all of them. In particular, I imagine China will adopt IPv6 when China feels like it, and not on anyone else's timetable.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:45 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I don't see how China is ever relevant. They purposefully build completely separated Internet with tightly controlled connection to the "global" one.

The fact that they don't want to allow people to have independent servers there is unfortunate, but I don't see why this should affect the rest of the world.

Other countries would quickly adopt IPv6 if there would be incentive: hardware and everything is out there.

The critical point is 50% since after that it becomes more lucrative to bring more IPv6 users on board than to try to help remaining IPv4 users - and many contries are very close.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 13:17 UTC (Tue) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link]

"In the last couple of months, we have seen evidence that points to large-scale deployment of IPv6 services in China. This is most evident in the regional networks of China Mobile and in ChinaNet."

[...]

"If one was to look to China to be the last piece in a critical mass of IPv6 deployment that will propel the Internet's migration over the coming years, then the picture is looking very encouraging."

http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190102_ipv6_in_china/

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:09 UTC (Thu) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link] (2 responses)

Even if IPV6 happens to completely replace IPV4, it might eventually get NATted too as a way for ISP to differentiate plans and users.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 7, 2019 9:43 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

Why? NAT is a significant expense.

for-profit ISPs

Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:27 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

"Why? NAT is a significant expense."

For-profit ISPs might believe they could make a greater amount of money differentiating plans and users. The scheme probably works better the less choice of alternate ISP the targeted users have.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 11:24 UTC (Tue) by zyga (subscriber, #81533) [Link] (1 responses)

There are legal issues.

In some countries even hosting a blog requires the operator to obtain state license. The operator is under legal liability for comments posted on whatever services are being operated. Then there is the ISP. Obtaining a public IP address is one thing, obtaining one and hosting a service (vaguely defined for the purpose of shutting down traffic hogs) may require a totally different contract.

I would love to live in a world where content is hosted and mirror reliably in a mesh network but we are not there and the recent trends around privacy invasion and legal strong arm make that less and less likely.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 11, 2019 11:00 UTC (Mon) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

I wouldn't say that, we are seeing a lot of new development around IPFS, WebRTC, etc., I can see IPFS ending up as part of the infrastructure for the web.

We aren't at that point yet, but it's getting closer every month.

Now I do expect some kind of commercialization, which could mean: pay for IPFS storage.

Some are developing blockchain coin/IPFS storage solutions.

Or maybe I should say: an other chance to do it right or fail again.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 4, 2019 23:38 UTC (Mon) by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223) [Link] (13 responses)

Definitely worth a read and some interesting stuff, but:

a) I'd hardly call it "lengthy" - took me 5 minutes to read. (For reference I would consider "lengthy" to start at around 20 minutes for a first pass) - and that's a criticism of the expectations raised by the lead-in rather than the article.
b) It degenerates rapidly (IMO) into under-defined jargon - e.g. "information dictatorship" and "information anarchy".
c) (the point I'm going to expand on) It talks about federation as a "fallacy" then presents a false dichotomy.

Let's look at what I consider the key point in the article:

"
In reality, guess how many instances encompass half of the user base. Maybe 1,000? Alright, there are some big instances in there, so perhaps 100? Well, there are a lot of really tiny instances mixed in, so possibly only 20?

The answer?

Three.

Just three instances encompass 50.8% of users.
"

So there are only three main nodes. Well, that's still 300% of the externally visible nodes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, ....
Also, that covers 50.8% of users. That means that 49.2% of users are on nodes other than those three.

Likewise email. Yep Google Mail has a huge hunk of email users. But there are other large servers, and plenty of smaller servers.

The false dichotomy is the implicit message I got from the first half: "A large number of roughly equal weighted is federated, any other distribution is centralization". As far as I'm concerned Mastadon _is_ still federated. People choosing not to manage their own personal server, and instead use someone else's server (either for free or for money) does not affect whether something is federated or not. The protocol is open and any individual or organization could set up new nodes and create a significant redistribution of users. A point that's actually made further down the article:

"True, Mastodon is de facto centralised, but despite the size of the largest instances, it retains the ability to federate with other Mastodon instances. Further, Mastodon is able to federate with other free software friendly networks via a pair of common protocols, creating the familial fabric of the “fediverse”. Centralization and federation can certainly co-exist in harmony to improve efficiency while retaining user choice."

So which is it? Is federation "dead" or is it still there?

There's major issues for federated systems; last time I checked Mastadon had not displaced Twitter for the general public, and to me _that_ is a bigger problem than how many federated Mastadon nodes are popular. The Web is also a federated system. I would argue that the inherent federated nature is a reason things are not 100% centralized now. Matrix offers another interesting federated option; it will be interesting to see how the adoption by the "French Ministry of Digital" plays out.

I would summarize the last section generally as "the issue is less the technology; the culture we build on top of whatever platform is at least as important". A gross simplification I acknowledge, but I was struggling for a phrase longer than "information democracy" and short enough to fit here. A federated system doesn't necessarily ensure freedom, but it makes it much easier to construct freedom, centralization of servers or not. In that I _think_ we are in agreement.

So I actually agree with where the article finishes, I just think the whole "federation is dead", "federation is a fallacy" was over-played and a distraction from the good bits.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 2:42 UTC (Tue) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link] (9 responses)

But those three nodes see far more than 50.8% of the traffic. The *traffic* is the important measure, not the users.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 3:07 UTC (Tue) by areilly (subscriber, #87829) [Link] (2 responses)

How much traffic is that, by the way? Is it as much as the non-binary parts of Usenet, at its peak? (Is it possible to measure, in a federated system?). I ask as someone who hasn't really looked at a Usenet feed in ten years (probably longer) and hasn't yet bothered to investigate mastodon, but has heard of it. (I don't do any of the other big-socials either, so I'm technically an old fogey. Exhibit B: I have set up and run Usenet nodes in the past, twice.)

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:32 UTC (Tue) by alyssa (guest, #130775) [Link] (1 responses)

As I mentioned briefly in the original post, measuring by number of status updates ("toots") per instance, 5 instances make up half of the data set. A single instance has 21% of updates; the top five by update count compose 51.4%. This is only marginally better than the per-user data. Visually, https://rosenzweig.io/Mastodon-statuses.png

It's not a perfect measure of activity across the fediverse, but seeing as status updates are the primary function of a microblogging platform, it should give a pretty close estimate.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 6, 2019 2:40 UTC (Wed) by areilly (subscriber, #87829) [Link]

Traffic matters. Usenet isn't actually dead (I still have a paid subscription to one of the handful of remaining text-only servers in the world), but the traffic volumes make it unreasonable for small sites to carry anything other than a curated feed (perhaps curated dynamically by subscription requests, I believe that's a thing now). I think that Usenet is significantly closer to the mastodon model of federated messaging than e-mail, and is probably a pretty good indication of some of the pressures involved. (How does mastodon deal with spam? Reputation scores or something equivalent to shared ban lists? Administrator-run spam-bots?)

The alternative to taking a cut-down feed (which is fractional de-federation, I suppose) is to have an account on an enormous server, where the feed volume is aggregated between the active users, and the message database is physically shared.

WhatsApp might just be XMPP, but it works because it's single node, an enormous SMP system has been competently engineered and refined to the limits of current technology. Cleaving that into federated pieces would necessarily complicate and slow down message delivery and introduce all sorts of synchronization and protocol issues. Seems like a reasonable design trade-off, if you can make it work. More secure than SMS and it's inter-exchange signalling issues.

The multi-dimensional discrepancies between network terms-of-service, national speech laws and population-group sensibilities is one of the more interesting struggles of our age, IMO.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:01 UTC (Tue) by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223) [Link] (5 responses)

OK, so let's ignore the second part (the 49.2% users). I would still call 3 servers a federation.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 5:06 UTC (Tue) by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223) [Link] (4 responses)

Argh - should have said that in a few more words to make it clearer.

3 servers have 51.8% of the users. From a followup comment I gather 5 servers have 51.4% of the traffic. So I can accept that there are 3-5 servers that matter and the rest are of rapidly diminishing significance. I'd still call 3-5 servers a federation.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 15:03 UTC (Tue) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link] (3 responses)

So gmail, o365, yahoo, and two more would be a-ok?

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 16:51 UTC (Tue) by dan_a (guest, #5325) [Link]

I'd say that depends a lot on the barrier to entry.

Today, it's not that difficult to start running an email server but there is an increasing difficulty getting your emails accepted by other servers due to spam protections.

In the world with 5 big email services, if you can start running your own email server and start sending emails to people on all 5 of those services and receive replies then it's still open and federated and that's all good. On the other hand, if the mail from your little email server gets rejected by the big 5 (because anyone who is not one of them must be a spammer) then it's no longer an open and federated service, but a closed federation which you can't join in with, and that's not good.

I don't know how the Mastodon world works, but to my mind as long as anyone has the ability to join the federation then it doesn't really matter if there's a big concentration of users on a small number of servers.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 22:14 UTC (Tue) by pjhacnau (subscriber, #4223) [Link] (1 responses)

Short answer:

a-ok? No. Still Federated? Yes. Scope for improvement? Definitely. Likelyhood of improvement? ............

Longer answer:

I'd consider only having gmail , o365 and yahoo still a better situation than the other "messaging" options. I think email is in an "interesting" situation as it is, AFAIK, the longest still-used federated protocol. Firstly the whole barrier-to-entry issue has, and continues to, whittle away at the federated nature of e-mail. But it's hanging on by its fingernails. Part of the problem is that the original email protocols have . . . er . . . "issues" and most attempts to fix them hit vested interests and/or undermine the original federated nature. But right now I can (and do) run my own email sever. After having to switch to the NBN I lost my static IP - DDNS to the rescue. Sub-optima but useable. I then found that my IP address was being allocated from a pool which is blacklisted (all of it - thanks Telstra). OK, so outgoing email gets routed via a freind's hosted email server and I've set up SPF records so that everyone[1] accepts the incoming mail. Would a sane person bother with all this? No. But . . . for the sane, and for me if/when I give up on all this, I can immediately think of an additional 3-5 big Australian commercial providers I could use for my email. Which for me (living in Australia) means my mail, for the most part, remains subject to the same set of laws the rest of my life is subject to.

Three points I'd pull out of that:

1) Email the protocols is a mess. Email the system is compromised on multiple levels, (usually) insecure, the "improvements" often create more pain than gain. But the "cures" are (IMHO) universally worse.

2) A Federated system makes it possible for commercial entities to jump in, make money, and have a big presence without automatically being in full control. Google doesn't really control mail in the same way that, say, Facebook controls Facebook, Facebook Messenger, and (now) WhatsApp. Federated systems have a built-in resistance to becoming a monopoly.

3) A Federated system doesn't guarantee freedom for users, "Digital Democracy" or anything else down that path. Just because a given federated system resists monopoly doesn't mean it can't become one. But it remains a (very) useful tool.

Separate to email I want to mention Mastadon again. In the context of the original article I feel like I'm really missing something. The author (and a couple of comments) seem to be trying to tear down something that, to me, isn't that big in the first place. As I said earlier, for me the biggest point of Mastadon (or Diaspora before it, or . . . ) isn't how "federated" it is (or isn't) but that it has really had no impact on the existing social media players. It's interesting, but doesn't really warrant huge praise or criticism. What gives?

[1] Ironically the _only_ problem I've had with that hasn't come from gmail, o365, or yahoo - it's actually a small Australian ISP who whinges about a reverse-DNS lookup issue.

castles made of sand and fallacies made of straw

Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:56 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

Separate to email I want to mention Mastadon again. In the context of the original article I feel like I'm really missing something. The author (and a couple of comments) seem to be trying to tear down something that, to me, isn't that big in the first place. As I said earlier, for me the biggest point of Mastadon (or Diaspora before it, or . . . ) isn't how "federated" it is (or isn't) but that it has really had no impact on the existing social media players. It's interesting, but doesn't really warrant huge praise or criticism. What gives?
To me, the biggest point of FOSS decentralized/federated communication platforms ('social media players') isn't about federatedness, or even impact on existing high-usercount platforms. To me the biggest point is Free Speech. From that perspective, the derived value of 'federatedness' comes into play. As each large-outlier member of the federation becomes a too-attractive chokepoint target for those who would wish to censor or 'shape the human terrain' of the free speech within that realm. While I still haven't read the whole article, I will point to the second paragraph-
Thus, permeating the community are calls for decentralisation. To attack the information silos, corporate conglomerates, and governmental surveillance, decentralisation calls for individuals to host servers for their own computing, rather than defaulting on the servers of those rich in data.
First I think there is a fallacy with the phrasing of 'decentralisation' as an entity. It's perhaps more important to understand that the 'permeating calls for decentralization' are on a political spectrum as diverse as the spectrum of (in the US) democrats and republicans and libertarians and christians and muslims and jews. I.e. I think the false assumption is that the important aspect of those 'permeating calls' is maximization of decentralization, versus maximization of free speech capability and/or privacy concerns.

In general the article seems a bit agenda/narrative pushing to me. 'unbridled aura' in the first sentence triggers my suspicion that someone has a 'bridling' narrative/agenda they are pushing.

Immediately in the third graf we get
In the decentralised dream, every user hosts their own server. Every toddler and grandmother is required to become their own system administrator.
This seems to be a strawman narrative attacking people with positions such as mine. Strawman because it mischaracterizes the 'call for decentralization' into an extreme 'every toddler and grandmonther is required to...'.

That reads to me like someone who is trying to smear positions such as mine that advocate (see other comments) every *adult* *have the option*(not the requirement) to become their own system administrator. And that such *options*(NOT REQUIREMENTS) are a critically necessary aspect of achieving real hard-line Free Speech on the global information superhighway.

My apologies to the author if the toddler/grandmother issue is something they are responding to, versus creating. But from the tone of the first few paragraphs I get the impression Rosenzweig is either pushing, or completely falling for the toddler/grandmother/sysadmin anti-home-server narrative.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 5, 2019 4:58 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (2 responses)

I hypothesise that the Mastodon federation graph would look a lot more healthy if running an independent copy of the software wasn't a full-time job with all-consuming system requirements, or if its users weren't so trigger-happy with FUD about alternative ActivityPub servers with more sane resource usage.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 6, 2019 14:57 UTC (Wed) by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039) [Link]

You said it. The alternatives I've been exposed to don't yet meet my requirements, but I sure like that there are alternatives with more reasonable requirements and significantly simpler installation steps.

Replacing one fallacy with another

Posted Mar 6, 2019 17:46 UTC (Wed) by zaitcev (guest, #761) [Link]

You can run Pleroma, you know. I do and it's not a full-time job. Baiscally runs itself, just like Postfix with logrotate. Mastodon made certain architectural choices that made it time-consuming to run, which are not the only choices.

Also, allow me to interject for a moment, but
https://zaitcev.livejournal.com/251546.html

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 18:00 UTC (Tue) by rweikusat2 (subscriber, #117920) [Link]

Wikipedia contains in incredible amount of dubious, presumably politically motivated junk it its non-core areas.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 5, 2019 23:08 UTC (Tue) by jejb (subscriber, #6654) [Link]

I don't think federation is a fallacy, I think it's a useful thing in its own right for preserving freedom. If we consider email, the only reason I can set up my own email server and still send email to @gmail.com is because of federation. I certainly can't get my XMPP server to send a message to hangouts without building a bridge.

Further, the lack of federation keeps people trapped in silos. So an annoyed gmail user can switch to outlook.com and still communicate with the same bunch of people using their original email addresses. If the same user gets annoyed by whatsapp and wants to switch to hangouts, they have to persuade all their friends to switch with them because whatsapp and hangouts won't federate.

If a silo doesn't federate, the barrier to switching is orders of magnitude higher, which is why the major silos hate federation. I honestly think they'd actually remove email federation if they thought they should get away with it ... Google has been making moves to regard smaller email servers as more spammy, which seems to be an attempt to gauge the backlash involved in removing federation. After all, if you have to have a google account to talk to your hangout buddies, why shouldn't you need a gmail one to talk to your gmail ones.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 8:57 UTC (Wed) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link]

I think that rather than a fallacy of federation, one should think in terms of natural consequences of missing features from many federated services. IMHO it is not much a matter of effort from those providing the servers, rather of effort of users in using the smaller servers because of the missing features.

Just to name a couple of issues.

1) Migration. If there is no possibility to straightforwardly migrate to another instance of the federated service, then it is obvious that all the non-professional servers are doomed from the beginning. Who would put his data on a server that may need to be discontinued without any assurance that he/she can migrate it elsewhere without too much effort. For instance, I think that this is the main reason why the mastodon users all concentrate on 3 servers.

2) Poor support for things that users expect to be global. If you have a social-network like service or a chat/voice/voice+video communication service you expect to be able to search the person you want to talk to "globally". This is one of the reasons why things like facebook or skype are so successful. Once someone tells you "I'm on facebook" or "I'm on skype", even if you are not told the username or you forget it, you are typically able to find him/her. In many federated systems, search only works at the level of the single server you are on, and this means that in terms of features and easiness of use, you would be better off if there were only one server.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 17:37 UTC (Wed) by zaitcev (guest, #761) [Link] (6 responses)

> But do you host your own mail server?
Yes

> Do your friends?
Yes, why

> Does your grandmother?
I had two and both are dead, so no to that

> Setting up a mail server often is time-consuming, ad hoc, and brittle; despite technical literacy and the hours I poured in, I continue to have problems with my e-mail delivery.
Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.

There is still a problem of DDoS though. But she's not even there.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 18:53 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.
As are more than 99% of the general population.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 21:42 UTC (Wed) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

Count me in the 99%.... I mean, I do run my own mail service, but I probably have put hours into it over the years, and it still does break every now and then, and I kind of hate it at this point.

It's not that it's rocket science, or even that it takes *that* much time in absolute terms. It's just that I depend on it, so if something goes wrong I have to drop everything and fix it now, which generally means relearning a bunch of fairly boring stuff that I haven't had to think about in a long time.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:00 UTC (Wed) by dkg (subscriber, #55359) [Link]

Sorry, but e-mail deliverability in the current era is far from "basic computing". There are a tremendous number of details (both technical and social) that a successful mailserver operator needs to not only be aware of in theory, but also actively monitor and respond to.

If you run your own mailserver and you don't put a noticable amount of time into it, i can only imagine that your mail isn't being correctly delivered on the Internet today.

I don't think I agree with all of the conclusions in Rozenzweig's article, but claiming she is not technically competent for stating the plain truth is both unpleasant and spuriously dismissive without actually engaging with the arguments advanced in the piece. Please hold yourself to a higher level of discussion here on LWN.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:22 UTC (Wed) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

> Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.

How and why do you think this is an acceptable thing to post? I'd be very saddened if unsolicited personal abuse (even if it was accurate, which it objectively isn't) was considered OK on LWN these days.

Email delivery

Posted Mar 6, 2019 23:57 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Ensuring email delivery is anything but a "basic computing" task.

But even if it were, that sort of comment is uncalled for here; please do not attack people in that way.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:44 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

My theory: You have never run your own email server, or even one for a reasonably sized community. (I do so since several decades.)

> > Setting up a mail server often is time-consuming, ad hoc, and brittle; despite technical literacy and the hours I poured in, I continue to have problems with my e-mail delivery.
> Suddenly, the problem came into focus: Alyssa Rozenzweig is worthless at basic computing.

Proof: "an email server is basic computing".

qed.

Rosenzweig: The federation fallacy

Posted Mar 6, 2019 20:01 UTC (Wed) by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039) [Link]

The title should perhaps have been "The decentralization fallacy". Federation is less about decentralization per se than about resilience. Today's centralized service providers are very good at providing resilient services, but they are ultimately profit-driven enterprises, and few of those survive for more than a few years. Public, federated protocols can and do stand the test of time as one dominant provider falls and another takes its place, without everyone having to write software from scratch every time.

I remember well that before Gmail came Yahoo! Mail, and before that Hotmail; I remember, too, that before Wikipedia and DuckDuckGo I went to Google for information, and before that Yahoo!, and before that Altavista, and before that Infoseek. Internet mail was not re-invented each time; the Web was not re-invented each time.

Federation works.

How to democratize email?

Posted Mar 7, 2019 14:42 UTC (Thu) by grothesque (guest, #130832) [Link] (5 responses)

The main point of Alyssa's article in my eyes is that a federated protocol is neither sufficient nor necessary for a "democratic" online service. I find the example of Wikipedia very helpful. The free encyclopedia, with all its flaws, is certainly much "better" than Gmail!

With that point taken, the next question that arises is: how to turn email into a more democratic online service?

I wonder if Alyssa or anyone else has ideas on how a viable business model for a more democratic email service could look like. I guess that it would have to somehow provide additional benefit through community interaction, like Wikipedia does. Privacy-respecting traditional email providers do exist, but are obviously not successful compared to the monopolist.

How to democratize email?

Posted Mar 7, 2019 17:37 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

"I wonder if Alyssa or anyone else has ideas on how a viable business model for a more democratic email service could look like."

Step 1: Get FCC to clarify that ToS home server prohibition is a clear form of network neutrality violation (blocking based on type of application, service or device type (server is a type of device)).

Step 2: Watch as the evolutionary pace of traditional FOSS email service solutions increases in correlation with the number of people who can (in clear conscience with not violating their voluntarily agreed to business contractual obligations with their ISP) test and try out new solutions. And just like compound interest, every bit of that advancement compounds through time, leading to my projections of exponentially advanced pace of FOSS home server software evolution.

Step 3: Profit from that much greater societal access to Free Speech independent of unnecessary potential censors.

How to democratize email?

Posted Mar 8, 2019 0:34 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link] (3 responses)

> ideas on how a viable business model for a more democratic email service could look like.

I see two main issues.

The first is software. Most MTAs are excessively configurable. Most of us don't need that. A packaged and configure MTA that would let me easily try a new version, or roll-back to the old version would remove a lot of the admin headaches that have been mentioned. This would be given away as a loss-leader. It would probably include IMAP service and a web-mail interface (roundcube??).

The second is connectivity and is primarily about trust, though for people who have obnoxious ISPs, firewall-transition is also important.
Allowing every host to send unauthenticated mail to every other host is one of the reasons that email is a pain. We can go part-way without going to full centralization.
Maybe there is a business opportunity to provide authenticated SMTP services.
My MTA-in-a-box connects to the service that I pay a small sum for, authenticates as me, and delivers email. Then it uses the ETRN STMP command to switch roles and starts receiving email addressed for me.
The provider establishes reciprocal agreements with other providers - they promise to only send authenticated and paid for email, and agree to receive similarly authenticated email.
These providers also to spam tagging, and maybe even filtered when they have 99.9% certainty that it is unwanted.
I pay about $20 a year for a domain name. I could easily pay a similar amount for trouble-free self-hosted email.

How to democratize email?

Posted Mar 8, 2019 1:40 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

There's a company that does this: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/12/review-helm-perso...

It's not really getting any more popular.

How to democratize email?

Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:56 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

"Clearly" we need lwn to publish a Grumpy Editors guide to home email solutions.

How to better federate and decentralize email?

Posted Mar 8, 2019 2:07 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

We can go part-way without going to full centralization. Maybe there is a business opportunity to provide authenticated SMTP services. My MTA-in-a-box connects to the service that I pay a small sum for, [...] I pay about $20 a year for a domain name. I could easily pay a similar amount for trouble-free self-hosted email.
The $20/yr domain name registration factor seems trivial to get around (subdomain registrar, poor people can live with an extra domain, or utilizing alternate dns root servers. I think an important dynamic is that if home server prohibition ToS were cracked down on by the FCC, the lower barrier to operating dns servers, such as those alternates as well as the per-end-user registered subdomain authoritative servers. The price per end-user there should approach approximately zero with no trouble. Your authenticated SMTP servers are more or less common already- I pay <$5/month to a popular provider. However were the home server prohibition ToS forcefully repealed by the FCC, providing that service seems easy enough that it too should drop to practically nothing (maybe $0.05/mo). Likewise you'd want a similar network of service providers facilitating redundancy buffers/queueing as well offfsite online encrypted backup storage. Again, if everyone who wanted to could set up their own linux server at home and operate such a service, perhaps charging in cryptocurrency, or reciprocal service tokens/credits (perhaps in cryptocurrency form), then those services also should become available on the order of pennies per month.

Domain registration prices are a total scam intricately tied to the anti-home-server conspiracy.


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