Bro becomes Zeek [LWN.net]

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 17:53 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

But the name Zeek is already taken. It is an app that lets you buy and sell vouchers.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 18:06 UTC (Tue) by orev (guest, #50902) [Link] (39 responses)

> members identified their fondness for quirky, pithy names for open-source projects

Ugh. This is one of the weaknesses of open source, not a strength. Too many projects come up with arbitrary and often inappropriate names for their projects, and it makes them a nonstarter for attracting any kind of external support from companies, either as users or contributors.

Like FreaX

Posted Oct 16, 2018 18:18 UTC (Tue) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link] (1 responses)

Linus's own idea for the name for a Free Unix clone was "FreaX" - fortunately a FTP admin ignored that and gave him /pub/Linux to use.

Like FreaX

Posted Oct 17, 2018 10:57 UTC (Wed) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

Linux is also a pun or jokey name, but a good one.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 19:22 UTC (Tue) by jmanig (guest, #120108) [Link] (2 responses)

It's not just open source, the entire IT industry, or at least the Unix-ish side of it, is based on this. Unix is a pun on Multics; Multics itself comes from ITS which stands for "Incompatible Time-sharing System." C and X are named so because they evolved from B and W, respectively. I guess this is what happens when there's very little need for polished, marketing driven names in an industry so what would at best be working titles elsewhere end up as official names (I call it the "Snaked on a Plane" principle).

Otherwise I agree with you, we've obviously entered a time period where more discretion could and should be advised. There is no need, for example, to get scatological when you're trying to name your ASCII art colouring library. But I don't think that in turn means the entire principle needs to go away.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 20:30 UTC (Tue) by jg (guest, #17537) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, X was named X because we started with W. At the time, it seemed like the right thing to do; we gave it little though.

Binding the free variable has caused confusion in many conversations: for that you can accuse us of real mistake.

Having a good name does help in this era of googling....

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 18, 2018 7:05 UTC (Thu) by sytoka (guest, #38525) [Link]

And I think that W was name after V (View)...

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 21:01 UTC (Tue) by dfsmith (guest, #20302) [Link] (13 responses)

The industry seems to have taken on git, despite its derogatory connotation. Words change, and timing matters.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 21:32 UTC (Tue) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link] (1 responses)

I wasn't aware of the derogatory connotation, thanks. That's probably one of the reason it doesn't really cause problem. If most of the word (everyone except English native speakers) doesn't understand it, is it still derogatory?

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 18, 2018 2:19 UTC (Thu) by ThinkRob (guest, #64513) [Link]

Not even all native English speakers. US English speakers are unlikely to find git particularly offensive in this context. UK/AU is another story...

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 21:37 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (10 responses)

I know English pretty well, but I had to look up "git" in the dictionary to understand its derogatory meaning.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 23:17 UTC (Tue) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link] (7 responses)

I use the word git a fair bit (en_GB) I just did a quite look up with an obvious set of search terms and Google's "dictionary" overcooks the definition with "an unpleasant or contemptible person".

Calling someone a git is not a harsh critique. It is a very mild "bad" description, one that you might deploy at a friend: "oh you git; you beat me". It can obviously be strengthened with some context, eg: "those bloody gits in the government have just put up the tax on booze and fags AGAIN!"

I think git is the perfect name for the software. xkcd 1597 explains why ... perfectly.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 11:05 UTC (Wed) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (6 responses)

For the benefit of any Americans:

booze = liquor

fags = cigarettes

tax = a contribution to communal wellbeing, e.g. funding for universal healthcare.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 18:31 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Ahem. While 'fag' for 'cigarette' is mostly a Commonwealth English usage, 'booze' for 'alcoholic drink' is perfectly well understood in the USA :P

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 23:37 UTC (Wed) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link]

"For the benefit of any Americans:"

I was trying to help a Russian (I think) geezer with a *very* fine point of en_GB usage that he himself had mentioned he'd had to look up hints for from unsavoury sources. However I believe that most native en_* speakers here are conversant with most of the obvious colloquialisms from each other's neck of the woods.

The old "hot damn, they burn faggots over there in the UK" thing is generally and quite rightly considered distasteful on both sides of the Atlantic and probably most of the Pacific too.

That said, I suspect a tongue is firmly wedged in a cheek somewhere (*snigger*), given your note on what tax might mean.

LOL, laters.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 20, 2018 14:25 UTC (Sat) by Rudd-O (guest, #61155) [Link] (3 responses)

LOL at extortion being called a "contribution". Hahaha.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 23, 2018 1:26 UTC (Tue) by clicea (guest, #75492) [Link] (2 responses)

Found the ~~crazy~~ ultralibertarian american

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 23, 2018 6:16 UTC (Tue) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (1 responses)

If it is extortion or outright theft if any one person does it, or a group does it then when a government does it, it *still is* extortion or theft.

An action doesn't magically become ethically correct when 51% (or whatever representative portion) decides it is.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 23, 2018 9:54 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

An action doesn't magically become ethically correct when 51% (or whatever representative portion) decides it is.

It does become the law of the land, though. You don't like it, campaign to get it changed, or emigrate.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 8:19 UTC (Wed) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

The word "git" is used multiple times in the Harry Potter books in a way that the reader can concur that it's not nice to call somebody "git". I didn't met this word before reading the books - and I never connected the word to the software, just like the word "gimp" from Pulp Fiction to the software. Probably that's where somebody has to be a native speaker.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 21:50 UTC (Wed) by MisterTea (guest, #120635) [Link]

Gimp did not originate from Pulp Fiction though it is probably the first time many people hear the word used. The original derogatory definition of gimp is a person who has a limp or other physical disability that prevents them from walking normally. Something that has degraded in operation and is "limping" along can be called gimped. This is the definition I associate with the word though it classically refers to a type of upholstery trim as well as a type of fishing line.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 13:10 UTC (Wed) by ledow (guest, #11753) [Link] (15 responses)

Try working in IT in schools and convincing them that a piece of software called GIMP won't attract titters from the teenagers.

Or that "git" is a word they should allow in their coding classes.

Open-source chooses some ridiculous names, for no good reason, which though I'm sure are humorous or "clever" to some, don't reflect well on them in the long run.

I'm not saying that corporations should throw up their arms in disgust at it, but it doesn't help the case for integration.

There's actually a market for doing things like sucking in projects with weird names, bundling them into better-named products, and selling those instead.

DansGuardian is another one - that doesn't sound like the kind of ultra-professional thing you want deciding if your school's kids get onto adult sites or not, it sounds like something knocked up by some random guy in a garage back in the 90's.

Bundle it as part of Smoothwall or similar and people will happily leap on it, though.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 13:45 UTC (Wed) by adam820 (subscriber, #101353) [Link] (9 responses)

Ugh, this so much. This isn't even schools, this is everywhere.

There's a reason Nautilus shows up as "Files", and Baobab is "Disk Usage Analyzer". That's cool you want to have a unique name for things, but most people just want to know what a thing does without a clever or fun name.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 16:44 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (7 responses)

And there's a reason why this is one of the very first things I always disable on a new install. There are dozens of different applications for managing files; the one I'm looking for is called "Nautilus", not "Files". I'm looking for "The GIMP", not "Image Editor".

An application's proper and *unique* name should be front-and-center. Its description, for those who have never run it before, can be hinted at in a tooltip or smaller, low-contrast text. Hiding the real names of things keeps users dependent on the desktop environment to pick the "best" app in each category (why does "Files" refer only to Nautilus and not Dolphin or Thunar or emelFM2?), creates unnecessary confusion when there is more than one option available, and discourages users from learning how things work under the hood. If you want to start a file manager from the command line, for example, just knowing that the DE calls it "Files" isn't going to get you very far. You're not doing beginners any real favors by optimizing the UI to *keep* them at the beginner level.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 18:35 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (6 responses)

> If you want to start a file manager from the command line

The Laconic Reply to Philip of Macedon applies :)

On Windows I start a file manager by pressing Win-E.

On Linux, I start one so rarely that I do not want to waste brainspace on remembering what the bloody thing is called.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 20:15 UTC (Wed) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (5 responses)

The file manager was just one example; still, some file managers are more suited than others for particular tasks. Some might be better at managing local files while others offer advanced network filesystem support or transparent access to files within archives; one includes multi-file renaming while another has advanced integrated search. Even on Windows there are alternatives to Explorer, though they're not as common. Once one progresses beyond the beginner level it is not unheard-of to use more than one file manager (or image editor, or text editor), at which point over-simplified labels like "Files" only get in the way.

The main thing is that, IMHO, users should be able to recognize and recall the real names of the apps they're using when they see them outside the desktop's application menu, whether that be at the command-line, in the distro package manager, or on some online forum looking for support or reporting a bug.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 18, 2018 7:44 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

So what do you call your photo manager? Even in Windows you have lightroom and photoshop, which are aimed at different bits of the workflow.

When I want to manage my photos, I typically use Picasa. When I want to work with them, I use the Gimp. If they're both called "Photo Manager", what am I supposed to do ... ?

Cheers,
Wol

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 19, 2018 1:16 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (3 responses)

If the desktop is presenting Gimp as a “Photo Manager” (or worse, making it the default program for photos when you've no intention of editing them), that's a defect in the desktop.

And an all-too-common one, unfortunately; programs can't sanely offer to handle the inode/directory MIME type as input any more because some DEs have decided that makes them general-purpose file managers. Real fun when you try to open the browser's download folder and the DE decides to dump every file in it into your media player…

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 23, 2018 16:05 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

And my desktop (KDE) now seems to randomly allocate applications to mime types, although I've had to fight the exact same problem on windows ...

Iirc I had great fun trying to fix gwenview complaining that it didn't have a clue how to open a pdf ...

Cheers,
Wol

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 30, 2018 6:39 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

At least, unlike Windows, we don't have the problem of .exe files losing their default association. I've heard it does happen sometimes.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Nov 1, 2018 0:40 UTC (Thu) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

I think that's already happened in Gnome. I actually haven't tried it recently but I've been told Nautilus (File Manager) will not launch executables of any kind by double-clicking them. They have to be .desktop files from known locations, apparently.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 18, 2018 9:31 UTC (Thu) by philh (subscriber, #14797) [Link]

If you look around the UI of Evince to see if you can work out what it's called, the one place it exists AFAIK is in the copyright notice declaring that its copyright belongs to "The Evince authors" which still would not tell them its name if they didn't already have a pretty strong suspicion.

Allowing the user to run the thing from the menu without knowing its name is great, but if they need to discover what they're are actually running (so they can do something like look for the documentation, or report the bug) completely hiding it is really not helpful.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 14:00 UTC (Wed) by mikebenden (guest, #74702) [Link] (1 responses)

As jmanig also mentioned elsewhere in the thread, this started out as clever computer (unix) hackers coming up with clever, punny names for their projects. Exposure to "normies" was rare, and one got the occasional shrug or puzzled look when such a name came up in "polite" conversation.

These days, "normies" will twitter-mob you instead of giving you blank stares, even when it was not your actual intention to insult them. Also, these days you might actively want them to know about and use your project, so meeting them half-way on naming conventions might be advantageous.

The price will be that everything will mostly have bland, boring names coming straight out of a marketing focus group :(

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 19:59 UTC (Wed) by spaetz (guest, #32870) [Link]

I recommend Levvy's book Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, for those not old enough to remember.
Open Source, Free software and indeed hacker culture came straight out of the prone-to-pranks communities of the MIT model railroad club and the likes.
And I am sure that coming up with clever names, including puns, word plays and recursive acronyms is part of what RMS would define to be a hack.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 19, 2018 17:08 UTC (Fri) by codeofdrama (guest, #127444) [Link] (1 responses)

Here's what the GIMP project says about its own name[1]:

The name was originally (and remains) an acronym; although the word “gimp” can be used offensively in some cultures, that is not our intent.
[...] feel free to promote the use of the long form GNU Image Manipulation Program [...]

And Linus about the git name[2]:

"git" can mean anything, depending on your mood.
[...]
- "global information tracker": you're in a good mood, and it actually
works for you. Angels sing, and a light suddenly fills the room.

If one chooses to read, or pronounce these acronyms as "gimp", and "git", one should perhaps consider what the Covenant CoC project thinks about this matter (note that this commenter doesn't seem to be a maintainer, but the comment was left unchallenged by the maintainer)[3]:

afaik no one reads out loud "CoC" in the way you describe. Being an acronym we read it as "c-o-c" (with spaces in between).

Granted, it's not as clear cut in writing as the former two examples. My point, I guess, is that thick skin is useful, and teenagers apparently have more fun than grown-up professionals.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 25, 2018 17:57 UTC (Thu) by dfsmith (guest, #20302) [Link]

"I'm an egotistical bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First Linux, now git." 2007-06-14

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 20, 2018 1:19 UTC (Sat) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

Try working in IT in schools and convincing them that a piece of software called GIMP won't attract titters from the teenagers.

If tittering at product names was a massive problem then there would be no iPads in schools. It's annoying, for sure; but let's not over-egg it. "Bro" seems to have a deeper problem than tittering.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 20:44 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

Also, it's a fairly bad name in and of itself. You'd think a branding consultancy would pay attention to phonotactics, and the phonotactics of this name are awful. Words ending in 'eek' (IPA: /iːk/) include a fairly high proportion of words with major negative connotations like shriek and reek, which because they are emotionally intense are more likely to spring to mind on hearing this than the mildly positive words sharing the same ending like week, seek or creek. (Or, I suppose, geek.)

Also... the name is every bit as random as 'Bro'. You might as well call it 'astfgl' for all that it brings network monitoring to mind. Heck even 'Leek' would be better: at least it's kinda close to 'link'. But of course you can't get a trademark on 'leek' nor is it 'original' enough to justify a branding consultancy's huge fees.

Branding consultancies: the people who gave the world 'Consignia'.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 19, 2018 18:17 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (guest, #4266) [Link] (2 responses)

You can get a trademark on "leek" if there isn't one already for the trade purposes you're using it for.

Someone selling red hats isn't infringing on Red Hat's trademark any more than Red Hat is on theirs.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 20, 2018 0:38 UTC (Sat) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

Does Red Hat sell red hats?

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 22, 2018 10:14 UTC (Mon) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

Nope, they give them away. I know because I have one.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 16, 2018 20:09 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

The name “BroCon” seems like an unfortunate pun all of its own as well. Hope it works out well for them.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 7:26 UTC (Wed) by johnny (guest, #10110) [Link] (9 responses)

I know that this is a touchy subject and don't want to stir controversy, but I do want to state my opinion.

The last bastion has fallen - nowadays, even Linux and FLOSS news reminds me about identity politics and today's misguided attempts at forcing "inclusiveness" on people. The problem with this is that it's very stressful for me, since I find it so stupid and divisive. Like political news, then gaming and general technology news, I have to give up on FLOSS news, since it puts me in a bad mood and steals some of my energy. I will recede even further into myself and my code instead, perhaps wait ~10 years, and see if things improve.

Again, please don't take this as an invitation to a flame war - it is intended as a (small and insignificant) constructive criticism to the community as a whole.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 8:44 UTC (Wed) by shiftee (subscriber, #110711) [Link] (3 responses)

I wholeheartedly agree, you're not alone.

The hacker culture will prevail

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 20, 2018 1:30 UTC (Sat) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] (2 responses)

The hacker culture will prevail

When we started this thing the "hacker culture" was the permissive, inclusive culture, pushing at the boundaries of the wider culture to open its mind, to be respectful of difference, to be receptive to change and to new ideas. So without agreeing with you in the slightest, I hope the hacker culture prevails too.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 21, 2018 12:12 UTC (Sun) by shiftee (subscriber, #110711) [Link] (1 responses)

It sounds like we agree entirely. That's the hacker culture i'm talking about.

The one there when the identity politics people arrived and started calling us sexist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic etc. and then demanded codes of conduct.

In case you haven't seen it I found the following to be a good read:
https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls-and-software

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 21, 2018 18:26 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

In case you haven't seen it I found the following to be a good read: …

Indeed. The funniest part is where ESR (a) automatically assumes that Susan Sons must be a “16yo boy”, and when corrected on that account, (b) automatically assumes that her parents must be some sort of uber-geeks since of course it is inconceivable to him that a 12-year-old girl could end up where Susan Sons was under her own steam. That's your famous “hacker culture” right there …

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 10:37 UTC (Wed) by Ebardie (subscriber, #119376) [Link]

"[I] don't want to stir controversy, but I do want to state my opinion."

Pick one. Oh you have :¬)

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 17, 2018 17:12 UTC (Wed) by raegis (guest, #19594) [Link] (3 responses)

"The problem with this is that it's very stressful for me, since I find it so stupid and divisive. "

Something like this should not cause you stress. It *must* not cause you stress, especially if you are not involved in the project. I have three young children, and the idea of coming home and telling them that a name change in a distant project is causing me stress would be a severe disservice to them. You don't have the same family life I do, but I know there are much more important issues in your personal life to let a silly name change distract you.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 19, 2018 11:50 UTC (Fri) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

That sort of fortitude could also be expected from people who play the "offensive" card...

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 21, 2018 20:06 UTC (Sun) by Frogging101 (guest, #113180) [Link] (1 responses)

For me, free software is a hobby, one of the few things in this world that are positive for me. And to see it infected with the same depressing political nonsense that I use my hobbies to get away from is really disheartening. Sure, there are worse things in life, but what is life when all you have are "bad" and "worse"? I'm running out of things I can just enjoy without being reminded of all the bullshit going on. I don't know why I even subscribe to LWN anymore when every time I come here to escape from the real world and read about the free software world, I end up regretting it. And that's not a criticism of LWN or its fine staff, it's just the state of things. It's in the interest of people with agendas to push to ensure that we cannot escape, so that even people who just want to enjoy reading about gaming or science or free software are forced to take a side in someone else's war.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 21, 2018 22:11 UTC (Sun) by cody (guest, #24181) [Link]

Free Software is defined, even named, for its politics–free vs. proprietary. Flamewars long defined ones identity in free software (gnome vs. kde, etc.). However those issues were confined within the community, and had little relevance in most peoples lives. Free software has now become much more known and relevant. Now it's a hobby for far fewer people, and a career for many more. Of course it can continue as a hobby, but perhaps this expansion or intrusion into the broader world makes it more stressful.

I hope this is taken as well meant as it is, but if life feels like a mix of bad and worse please consider talking to someone. We should all benefit from the benefits of health resources, rather than let physical and mental burdens linger.

While I'm here I had long thought Bro was a joke, and Zeek seems similarly silly. There have been many great names for projects (kerberos, mozilla, wireshark, systemd [jk]). They just need to think it through more.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 25, 2018 15:07 UTC (Thu) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link] (1 responses)

What do you do if your new name *becomes* a nasty word 6 months or a year down the road?

You've got some app that links up people of similar interests, and you're just about at that tipping point where all your advertising has finally gotten you entre' into the Big Leagues - and then comes the #MeToo movement, all your Twitter & Facebook advertising goes *kaboom*!

This $#!+ has got to stop sooner or later.

Bro becomes Zeek

Posted Oct 25, 2018 16:06 UTC (Thu) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link]

The same thing that happens if your company or product was named ISIS: bad luck, you have to change it to avoid the unwanted connotations, like everyone in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_changes_due_to_the_Isl... . It's a bit of a hassle but you'll probably be fine. The problem isn't caused by what you presumably mean by "This $#!+", it's just a consequence of languages evolving.