GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 13:43 UTC (Fri) by excors (subscriber, #95769)
In reply to: GvR's T-shirt by Yenya
Parent article: After Years of Abusive E-mails, the Creator of Linux Steps Aside (The New Yorker)

Because the context is important. Girls are somewhat likely to think "programming is not for me", since nearly all the programmers they see or talk to or hear about are men. Saying "Python is for girls" is pushing back against that existing bias, and tells girls they are welcome in the community despite its current maleness. It won't cause boys to believe Python is *not* for them - they can see that Guido is a man, and that most other speakers and audience members at PyCon are men, so obviously that's okay too. In contrast, a man in a male-dominated field saying "X is for boys" would just be reinforcing prejudices.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 17:34 UTC (Fri) by stonedown (guest, #2987) [Link] (11 responses)

That is a great explanation.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 17:46 UTC (Fri) by dacohen (guest, #31863) [Link] (10 responses)

That's a bad explanation. Justifying sexism because sexism is good when it goes to one side?
Instead of going into sexism mode to help women, how about help women without degrading men?

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 17:55 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (6 responses)

>Instead of going into sexism mode to help women, how about help women without degrading men?

How is GvR's T-shirt degrading men exactly?

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:27 UTC (Fri) by Yenya (subscriber, #52846) [Link] (5 responses)

Either it is not, and also the T-shirt with "$open_source_project is for boys" does not degrade women as well, or both are degrading.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:35 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (4 responses)

>Either it is not, and also the T-shirt with "$open_source_project is for boys" does not degrade women as well, or both are degrading.

That's kind of like arguing for pride parade for straight men or talking about how "all lives matter". You can't ignore the context and background here.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:42 UTC (Fri) by Yenya (subscriber, #52846) [Link] (3 responses)

So, wearing a T-shirt with "$open_source_project is for boys", one should be extremely careful to not walk into a group where girls are in minority? Well, in some countries there are also zones where it is dangerous to walk into with the wrong text on your T-shirt. I don't think it is good to spread these zones. Quite contrary: we should teach people that offense is taken, not given.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:48 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

> So, wearing a T-shirt with "$open_source_project is for boys", one should be extremely careful to not walk into a group where girls are in minority?

Women are already a minority in open source. It makes as much as wearing that kind of t-shirt as celebrating a parade for straight men. It is why noone does that.

> Quite contrary: we should teach people that offense is taken, not given

Offense can definitely be given though. Tell me you don't see why the following is not offensive

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/7/6/495

"Who the f*ck does
idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering
that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:00 UTC (Fri) by Yenya (subscriber, #52846) [Link] (1 responses)

> Women are already a minority in open source.

And is it good or wrong? Or exactly OK? I guess people with IQ < 90 are also a minority in open source, as well as many other categories (exceptionally skilled violinists or civil engineers, for example).

Well, I don't buy into a religion saying that every $feature of human beings should be equally represented in all parts of human society. Maybe there is a reason for that imbalance, maybe there is not. All that outreach programmes are discriminating potential developers instead of supporting _all_ of them, instead of the $supposedly_underrepresented_minority_of_the_day.

> Tell me you don't see why the following is not offensive

Well, he is right that reading files byte by byte is utterly stupid, and he tries to emphasize that. Moreover, it is not directed against or for any minority or majority. Your point is?

To all participants here

Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:04 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I think it's become pretty clear that "Yenya" is unable or unwilling to understand what others are trying to say on this topic, and that little good will come from continuing to go around in this particular circle. Perhaps this would be a good place to stop?

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 18:10 UTC (Fri) by kmweber (guest, #114635) [Link]

Except it's not sexist, as they explained.

I get that when you're used to unjust privilege, equality can *seem* like oppression, but it's not.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 18:51 UTC (Fri) by martin.langhoff (guest, #61417) [Link] (1 responses)

Context and balance. When the room if full of blue-haired people, and you want others to not feel any about joining, you'll want to say: other hair colors welcome too.

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:29 UTC (Fri) by Yenya (subscriber, #52846) [Link]

Yes, exactly: "other hair colors welcome _too_" (emphasis mine).

GvR's T-shirt

Posted Sep 21, 2018 20:22 UTC (Fri) by Yenya (subscriber, #52846) [Link]

Okay, so this is in fact about snowflakes, who incorrectly interpret "$open_source_project is for boys" incorrectly as "$open_source_project is _only_ for boys" instead of "$open_source_project is _also_ for boys"? And who you expect to be predominantly female? Fair enough.