Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
I actually think that 4.19 is looking fairly good, things have gotten to the 'calm' period of the release cycle, and I've talked to Greg to ask him if he'd mind finishing up 4.19 for me, so that I can take a break, and try to at least fix my own behavior."
Posted Sep 16, 2018 22:20 UTC (Sun)
by mattrose (guest, #19610)
[Link] (1 responses)
Well done Linus.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 15:09 UTC (Mon)
by hacknat (guest, #110045)
[Link]
Posted Sep 16, 2018 22:27 UTC (Sun)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 8:08 UTC (Mon)
by daniel (guest, #3181)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 22:58 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 0:43 UTC (Mon)
by sml (guest, #75391)
[Link]
Self reflection is good, but what will be the outcome of "fix some issues in my tooling and workflow", if the last time this happened we got git? :-)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 0:48 UTC (Mon)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 5:25 UTC (Mon)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link] (15 responses)
Let's face it: we can afford losing a couple of loudmouths who cannot understand that abrasive language and personal attacks are unprofessional and drive away people. We can not afford, long-term, to drive away all these people.
Kudos to Linus for (finally :-P) realizing this fact.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 13:35 UTC (Mon)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 14:33 UTC (Mon)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 11:20 UTC (Tue)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:53 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (4 responses)
"SJW" is a pejorative term, used in many cases by rude people to excuse their rudeness. I'm not saying that some people don't go a bit overboard with taking offense, but the term SJW is usually used to shut down discussion rather than further it.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:11 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Strange. I'm sure it's pure coincidence.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:55 UTC (Tue)
by MarcB (guest, #101804)
[Link] (1 responses)
In other forums, you can already find a lot of posts along the lines "now that Linux is doomed, what are the alternatives", "The SJWs have won, Linux is lost", "Wo has coerced Linus into this?", "It must have been his SJW feminist daughter", "Now every crap will make it into the kernel and sooner or later someone will die due to this", "Linux will turn into an art-project for self-fulfilment", "The age of post-meritocratism has begun", ...
It would be funny, if it were in some movie.
BTW, I also have some preconceptions about CoCs, but it is all due to https://theinfosphere.org/images/c/cc/Code_of_Conduct_for... which was my first encounter with term.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 12:01 UTC (Wed)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
The obvious way forward is for these people to fork the Linux kernel and get rid of the CC again. All those great kernel developers who prefer the old-style abuse and incivility will soon move over to the new unrestrained fork and it will in its excellence quickly overshadow Linus's CC-impeded, SJW-infested version. Problem solved.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:44 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
It's like these guys know how to find the most self-mocking issues to take up.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 14:45 UTC (Mon)
by canglong (guest, #101012)
[Link]
Realizing that people are not machines, and that code and patches a much a result of peoples personal commitment as their programming skills, is just a nice way to optimize the output of the whole project.
Sure, being who he is, means he can get away with being an inconsiderate and rude jackass. But that will mean that many highly skilled people simply wont bother to contribute.
Polite and civil communication is not ear candy. It is the most optimal and efficient way of communicating wither other people.
We all aspire to write elegant and efficient code. Why not apply the same aspiration to our human communication?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:48 UTC (Mon)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:35 UTC (Mon)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link] (1 responses)
I fail to see any negatives here.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:07 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:04 UTC (Tue)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link] (2 responses)
Whoever was right in the technical dispute, that was counterproductive.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 12:24 UTC (Tue)
by mfuzzey (subscriber, #57966)
[Link] (1 responses)
Linus seemed quite polite overall, ok he said "idiotic excuses" but that's hardly a major insult.
And skimming the rest of the thread it seems very technical and cordial over all.
It seems that what Alan was really upset about was having put a lot of work into they TTY layer refactoring only to have it rejected for reasons he considered minor.
He may have been right or he may have been wrong but this is not something any code of conduct or "being nice to people" would have resolved.
There will *always* be hard decisions to be made and, whatever the decision, and however polite people are to each other some people will always be upset by some decisions, sometimes to the point of deciding to leave the kernel or a subsystem.
And if the priority changes from "the best possible kernel" to "keeping people happy" the kernel will suffer.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 20:29 UTC (Tue)
by andyc (subscriber, #1130)
[Link]
Yes that could be a concern. One of Linus's jobs is to say no, no to crap code, that doesn't/shouldn't change (I'm at least unaware of anywhere in the CoC that says Linus must now happily accept any old crap), perhaps just the way he says no... for better or worse.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 1:13 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (44 responses)
This is how the author of the Contributor Covenant is reacting to the news: http://archive.is/6AyZy
Posted Sep 17, 2018 3:06 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (38 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 3:21 UTC (Mon)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link] (36 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 3:40 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (14 responses)
Curious though, if you put ESR's warning with Ehmke's gloating and Torvalds' sudden capitulation and seeking of "assistance," do you not see any potential connection?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 4:05 UTC (Mon)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link]
To Linus' great credit his response has been extremely positive and constructive, and it leaves me optimistic that the kernel community (and the wider Linux community) will move forward quickly on what has long been a serious issue.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 10:09 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 12:44 UTC (Mon)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:47 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:34 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (4 responses)
But if you weren't contributing to begin with, who cares how offended you are?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 22:48 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
According to your logic, if I don't approve of the CoC that you insist on, I approve of indecent behaviour. This kind of rhetoric is why we can't have reasonable discussions about these issues.
> But if you weren't contributing to begin with, who cares how offended you are?
One of the primary rationales for the CoC is to avoid offending others who might otherwise contribute. See nix's comments on this page for a personal example. So I don't see how you can support the CoC while saying that you don't care how offended I might be. The whole point of the CoC is to care about offending others. Are you saying that it's okay to offend me, but not him?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 23:15 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
So why not?
Posted Sep 19, 2018 20:11 UTC (Wed)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
It's almost humourous how religious your arguments sound. If only you could hear yourself.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 23:06 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
It sounds like you're the one who wants the CoC, because you seem to be demanding others respect you for nothing but poison in return, which isn't how a meritocracy works.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 14:20 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 15:04 UTC (Mon)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link] (2 responses)
Sorry, but if I saw a problem, tried to fix it, got stonewalled left and right, and then – after literally years of fighting windmills – the mill's owner *finally* admits that my way is the right way after all, and thus I can let Rosinante rest for a while, well, I'd probably snark-or-gloat-or-whatever for a bit, too. That's basically human, and doing so doesn't hurt anybody.
But: please note that she doesn't snark about Linus, and she doesn't gloat about Having Won. Instead, she snarks about the guys (I seriously doubt this set includes any not-guys) who will now leave the kernel project because OH NOES MY FREE SPEECH RIGHTS GET RESTRICTED!!! PREPARE FOR THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT !!!!!!!11! and she gloats about a situation which is going to drive off the idjits, who IMHO deserve to be driven off.
Again IMHO: Good. Let them leave. The kernel is better off without them, long-term, and people who cannot (or do not want to) realize that their behavior drives off more contributors than they're themselves worth, long-term, need to leave. Or, if they won't change, to be left.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:04 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link]
No, don't you understand? This is a WOMAN! Drinking ALCOHOL! After being ASSERTIVE! How dare she!
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:36 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
They might be back when they realise they can't really get employed anywhere if they act like they've been acting heretofore, and fix themselves as Linus is trying to.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:51 UTC (Mon)
by liam (guest, #84133)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 10:59 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 11:02 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 12:28 UTC (Mon)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link] (18 responses)
Late is better than never.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:18 UTC (Mon)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (17 responses)
As a psychologist, a documenter of Linux, esr wasn't bad at all. I don't know of any recent work.
As a programmer, I'm not sure. He wrote fetchmail (or rather, largely rewrote it). Like many programmers, I think his ego was a bit larger than his ability.
Talk about guns ... well there's a lot of gun-nuts out there. He's just another idiot.
Respect him for his strengths and recognise we ALL have failings. There's a fair few here suspect I'm all failings, and a fair few who think I'm reason and fairness incarnate :-)
Cheers,
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:13 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:34 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (15 responses)
How so?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:40 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (14 responses)
It was far more optimistic than warranted about the power of voluntary community contributions to drive the development of large-scale projects. This led many projects (e.g. Netscape/Mozilla) to try to harness this power that did not, in fact, materialize.
CatB suggests that given a set of contributors, the extremely decentralized "bazaar" model not only works but is *efficient*. For example:
The related concept "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" has proven to be nonsense.
In retrospect I think it's clear ESR's libertarian politics and antipathy to Microsoft overly skewed his observations.
Another effect that can be blamed on CatB, or at least the ideas behind CatB, is that many open source projects (including Mozilla and Linux) were late to realize the importance of automated testing. CatB is completely ignorant of automated testing (fair enough, it was little practiced in that era), but by encouraging projects to rely on distributed testing by downstream users, it discouraged the development of continuous automated testing, which needs centralized infrastructure and developer attention to be most effective.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:50 UTC (Mon)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (1 responses)
Having lived through the pre-open-source era, faced with firing over using or contributing to free software when I worked at Borland and SCO...
I really would love to read a CatB, annotated, with what we've learned since 1998. I certainly remember what a breath of fresh air eric's books were and how they sparked the world we live in today - and I'm willing to forgive him (and everybody else) for not getting it all right.
In part it was the new set of analogies (notably the successful attack on the mythical man-month) that resonated then and continue to resonate now.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 22:12 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:44 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (10 responses)
And like most nonsense, it's actually a straw man - a false argument set up by detractors so they can pretend to destroy it.
Given enough eyeballs, all bugs REALLY ARE shallow. How long, from discovery to initial fix, does the typical serious bug in linux survive? HOURS!
The problem is that detractors assume that there are a lot of friendly eyeballs scanning open source code looking *for* bugs. Guess what, there aren't! But once someone stumbles across a bug and reports it, the more eyeballs it attracts (people it affects), the more eyeballs looking *at* the bug, the quicker it gets fixed.
Can you name EVEN ONE serious bug that, once it was spotted, survived more than a day or so without being dissected to death?
Cheers,
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:11 UTC (Tue)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (6 responses)
Spectre/Meltdown mitigations. Months from the bug being spotted in Linux to the initial fix being landed, and even then, the initial fix was only accepted because the bug was so serious that something had to be done.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:44 UTC (Tue)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (5 responses)
Still:
I've long had a corollary to Linus's law: With enough bugs, all eyeballs are shallow.
The enormous expansion of the Internet, the codebases, and the users has been far greater than the corresponding expansion of the developers capable of coping with it.
Folk with the core architectural knowledge to systematically design robust systems are few and far between. Having a holistic view of the flaws in the whole system is rare. The core devs are aging. The internet culture could use something like a fire department, that could pull in (and PAY) volunteers when an emergency like spectre happens. It could use a civil engineering department, also.
I lost 3 weeks of vacation and a great deal of sleep during spectre. I was burnt to a crisp for about three months, (I'd needed the vacation in the first place), while losing time pulling some core assets out of the cloud completely (because it still ain't fixed enough) and in the end I was late on a paid project and got fired for it.
I look at how firemen are respected, and compensated, and dearly wish we had that kind of societal infrastructure holding the net together also.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 22:22 UTC (Tue)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (4 responses)
Suspend/resume/hibernate, many "write data/fsync()" bugs that degenerate into blamestorming and nitpicking whether the POSIX spec makes it OK to corrupt people's data, data loss bugs in early iterations were not trivial, btrfs is a series of data loss problems. And that's just off the top of my head.
Many of these problems are hard, and can only be solved by a fairly small group of people.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 13:42 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (3 responses)
The problem here though often seems to be political, and such the code isn't buggy. "It's not working!". "It's working as per spec!". "Then fix the spec!". "Can't - I don't have the power!".
How many of your examples are actually "features" - where the unwanted behaviour is actually an inevitable side-effect of poor design?
It's not a bug IN linux, if it's trying to work around someone else's problem (which is one of the big arguments in favour of Open Source ... :-)
Cheers,
Posted Sep 19, 2018 14:14 UTC (Wed)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's not what I see when I look at the long standing bugs I have personally fixed.
For example, this fix to PPPoE was something that had been buggy for ages, but no-one had bothered to look for a good fix. this IRQ issue in VIA drivers was a straight foul-up that had been present in Linus's tree for at least a year. Here's a driver that kept locking up at random until I spent a few weeks digging into exactly what was wrong.
And I'm not a prolific contributor to the Linux kernel - these are the bugs I fixed where (a) I know that the bug had been present for at least 12 months, because I could find reports of them dating back to at least 12 months before I fixed them (in some cases, my co-workers had made the reports), and (b) the bug is entirely in the Linux kernel, and not (e.g.) in external hardware (although I encountered other bugs where with buggy hardware, things just failed, but the kernel was being slow for bad reasons: e.g. this DisplayPort bug ; the kernel used suboptimal transfer sizes, but had a comment saying that optimal transfer sizes don't help. That comment was outright wrong, and meant that I spent more time than I wanted to working out just WTF Linux was doing that the hardware did not expect).
Posted Sep 20, 2018 11:27 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
In other words, "no eyeballs" :-)
So yes, linux development failed in this scenario, but it was lack of motivation and eyeballs, not a failure of "given enough eyeballs".
Classic abuse of a saying - it's why I hate most people using the saying "a bad craftsman blames his tools" and "the exception proves the rule". In original use, the craftsman made his own tools, and the exception is a scientific proof - find an exception and your rule has to be rethought.
Cheers,
Posted Sep 20, 2018 11:35 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
Only if you redefine "given enough eyeballs" to mean that attempts to fix the bug that fail are also not "eyeballs" on the code. Other people (some of whom had far bigger incentives than I did) had looked at the code and tried to fix it before me. I happened to be the person who fixed it because my Linux experience (fixing random bugs that affected me or my employer) gave me a much better global view of what was possible than previous people who'd been focused on just the networking subsystem.
People had looked for a fix, failed because they were unfamiliar with workqueues and thus could only produce bad fixes, and then given up because it was a hard problem if you exclude the facility meant to make it possible. No-one before me took the step further to create a good fix - I just had the knowledge needed to take the idea behind someone's bad fix and do a good job of it.
And remember that the original context in which I'm replying was Wol asking "Can you name EVEN ONE serious bug that, once it was spotted, survived more than a day or so without being dissected to death?". I can name three which were spotted at least a year before I fixed them, where people before me made attempts to fix them, and in one case actually introduced the bug I fixed, while in two others they simply failed to fix them and the bug got left alone for over a year (which is considerably more than a day or so) before I fixed it.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:08 UTC (Tue)
by bfields (subscriber, #19510)
[Link]
I feel like I need to introduce you to bugzilla. Or my inbox. If you're feeling bored, I'm sure I could find a few bugs for you to work on.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 21:42 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's not a straw man, it's a direct quote from the document.
> Can you name EVEN ONE serious bug that, once it was spotted, survived more than a day or so without being dissected to death?
Sure, my Skylake laptop's Intel graphics hang temporarily (sometimes permanently) under heavy load. This has been going on for years, lots of bugs have been reported on freedesktop.org, lots of people have been involved, the problems have sometimes gotten better, sometimes worse, but never gone away. It is probably a combination of different bugs that change over time.
The problem is of course that a lot of those "eyeballs" aren't actually developers, and a lot of the rest (including me) are but don't have the time or inclination to get up to speed on the Intel driver code. I even looked at it, and found it would just take me a long time to learn enough to contribute anything useful.
You may say "ESR meant 'trained eyeballs who know the relevant code and who actually do look for the bug(s)'". To that, I say in that case his maxim has not scaled and cannot scale to be meaningful in a project the size and complexity of the Linux kernel today.
Posted Sep 21, 2018 1:10 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
(My i945 also has the exact same issue… bought it back when Intel was hyped up as having the best Linux graphics drivers and almost immediately got burned. Nowadays I have to choose PC hardware based on who's creating less horror stories and flag days.)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:51 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
I think it's a matter of being oversold rather than entirely wrong in vision.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 13:16 UTC (Mon)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 5:30 UTC (Mon)
by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link] (3 responses)
Hmm... the HTTPSEverywhere extension has a rule for that site that redirects to https (and if it didn't, SmartHTTPS would try, as it does for all unencrypted links, tho if it it fails to get an https connection it whitelists it as http-only and doesn't try again), but neither Chromium nor Firefox like the encryption -- presumably it's either outdated and both browsers are phasing it out.
Chromium (69.0.3497.81, gentoo ebuild): Unsupported protocol: ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH (Details: The client and server don't support a common SSL protocol version or cipher suite.)
Firefox (62.0 upstream binary as provided by gentoo firefox-bin ebuild): No common encryption algorithms: SSL_ERROR_NO_CYPHER_OVERLAP.
Links and Lynx yield similar errors when trying https.
But trying it unencrypted/http doesn't get much farther. All four browsers give me a DNS error, error 1001 or 1004 from Cloudflare, depending on whether cookies are allowed from archive.io.
The contributor-covenant.org link to the document worked, tho, just not the one to the author's opinion at archive.is.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 10:23 UTC (Mon)
by jwilk (subscriber, #63328)
[Link]
TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128 GCM_SHA256, 128 bit keys, TLS 1.2
Anyway, this is the original page: https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1041441155874009093
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:55 UTC (Mon)
by csos95 (guest, #123148)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 21, 2018 8:32 UTC (Fri)
by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:55 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
That "Hahaha" tweet looked like a joke or satirical remark to me.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 1:17 UTC (Mon)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link] (6 responses)
Second, human languages *are* programming languages. Whatever we say and write is a program the reader/listener executes in order to think the reader's/writer's thoughts and ideas. Poor, careless, and haphazard phrasing, word choice, spelling and grammar muddy, twist, and warp the converyed thoughts and ideas, just as a poorly written program will not make the computer do what the author wanted it to do. This also requires time to master (a lifetime is rarely long enough). So take the time to write your human and computer programs well.
We all want to write perfect code, to create perfect systems. But we're human and will (must) make mistakes. So take the time to choose the right path. Take the time to understand the ideas and concepts others try to convey. Take the time to understand your own thoughts and ideas; you can't write a good program to convey them to someone else if you don't grok them in the first place, just as you can't write a program to correctly solve a problem if you don't first understand the problem. And always remember that two people speaking the same language almost certainly will not convey thoughts and ideas to each other in the same way, much like the way a C-99 compiler will spit up when fed C-11 or how GW Basic doesn't understand UNIBASIC programs.
(And you thought there was no place for philosophy in computing....)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:29 UTC (Mon)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (3 responses)
Do as you would be done by? JUST DON'T! If you're a bloke, do you appreciate your wife/girlfriend/sister treating you like a woman? And vice versa ...
Just RESPECT other people, and ACCEPT that they are different.
Cheers,
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:43 UTC (Mon)
by dtlin (subscriber, #36537)
[Link] (2 responses)
I understood fest3er as saying: be conscious of the way your words will be interpreted by others, even though this may require slower thought and still result in miscommunication sometimes.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:04 UTC (Tue)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link] (1 responses)
Correct, but with one change for clarity: "... the way your words may be misunderstood by others ...". You neatly summarized my platter of words into a nibble. Perhaps it can be further summarized into a single word: civility.
Because you think you know what your words mean does not mean that everyone (or anyone) else will understand them in the same way. Wol's reply is a great example of this; what he thought I meant is not what I meant at all. (Erm, OK, I'm making an assumption. But it might be more cornfusing to say, "what I think he thought I thought is not what I thought at all." Clearly my English program failed to program Wol's neural net as I desired.) Each person's comprehension of language differs from everyone else's comprehension. It takes time for two or more strangers to understand each other when they first meet. And the deeper the conversation, the longer it takes.
Long time members of a project can work themselves into a comfortable, easy communications 'rut' of sorts. It's efficient and gets the jobs done. But it takes a while for newcomers to the project to grok this sub-dialect which is, mmm, about as long as it takes old-timers to program newcomers to understand it. Misunderstandings are very common; 'civility' affords the time to comb the tangles out of those tresses of words.
I suspect most people think this 'neural programming' happens by magic. It isn't; it can, in fact, be hard work. And when that work is performed online, it is further complicated by the absence of the emotional and expressive elements present with language spoken face to face. Being aware of this, even on a subconscious level, almost always helps to enhance comprehension and assimilation of ideas.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:51 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Actually, I think we were on the same page. I was giving an example of two (groups of) people who speak the same language but clearly do not understand the same language. C.S.Lewis expressed this pretty well - "Women speak a language without nouns. They seem to know instinctively what the pronouns stand for while men always spell it out".
Do not expect a member of the opposite sex to understand you anywhere near as well as a member of your own, even if you do speak the same language :-)
Cheers,
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:51 UTC (Mon)
by ViktorFoedowski (guest, #114398)
[Link]
Thanks for writing this!
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:51 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
That was a beautiful analogy. Thanks!
Posted Sep 17, 2018 2:44 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
That said, I certainly hope that feedback is more productive in the future.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 3:11 UTC (Mon)
by abacus (guest, #49001)
[Link] (157 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 3:26 UTC (Mon)
by unixbhaskar (guest, #44758)
[Link] (156 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 5:28 UTC (Mon)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link]
====
Software is often a very personal process compared to "traditional" ways of developing software. We all want the best solutions for Linux to continue to be successful.The Linux development process achieved and maintains a very high level of quality in the system. This code of conduct is intended to provide a reasonably smooth 'playing field' for all participants. Thus, your contributions (code, ideas, etc.) will be carefully and rigorously reviewed within the guidelines of this code of conduct; you should expect suggestions and requirements for improvement, 'well dones' for exceptional work, and criticism for code and ideas that seem dubious or misconceived. These reviews will almost always require changes to the code before it will be included in the kernel.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:58 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (154 responses)
One thing I can't help noticing is missing from that list... "politics".
Seeing this stuff infect Linux makes me want to override my own professionalism and _start_ getting sweary on mailing-lists, just to demonstrate that I can't be bound without my consent. Certainly that "we as contributors... pledge" means that every patch posting I send from now on will carry a notice stating that I do not, by contributing, pledge a damn thing beyond the license/DCoO indicated by the SOB-line.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:28 UTC (Mon)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (44 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:46 UTC (Mon)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
Plus, when the First Amendment is threatened, the 2nd is sure to follow. Can't have that, wanna keep them guns.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:20 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (42 responses)
As I said,
> given the history of the people who push this sort of thing
This is not happening in a vacuum, and the political leanings of the Social Justice crowd are not a secret. You know as well as I do, for example, what kind of person gets kicked out of conferences for non-project-related political positions, and it sure isn't the left-wing ones.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:40 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (40 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:10 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:14 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:36 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:57 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
And IN PRACTICE women tend to define "me and mine" as "me and my kids" while men tend to define it as "me and my social group".
So as soon as people start demanding "justice" you are heading into a political minefield ...
Not helped by the legal definition of justice, which usually means "due process" or "keeping the status quo". My favourite example there is the Birmingham Seven, who spent some 20 years in prison based on an Appeal Court ruling, that pretty much everyone knew was based on a schoolboy howler understanding of science ...
Cheers,
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:44 UTC (Mon)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 9:49 UTC (Tue)
by shiftee (subscriber, #110711)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:54 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (29 responses)
No, I prefer _individual_ justice. Where I can only be found guilty for my _own_ offences, not those committed by members of a group of which my accuser ascribes me membership.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:23 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:00 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (6 responses)
Because SJWs are not fighting for individual justice, they are fighting for social justice, and these two are ultimately incompatible concepts. ('Social justice' is a collectivist term-of-art, and like most such Progressive jargon, co-opts an existing positive term — in this case 'justice' — while perverting its meaning.) Under 'social justice', I can be held responsible for the crimes of _others_ simply because (for example) I share their skin colour and gender.
> Have you committed some crime that you're afraid will come out?
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" is a dystopian cliché for a _reason_. Your argument is analogous to asking "why would a law-abiding citizen oppose the creation of the Geheimstaatspolizei?" and yes I just went full Godwin and no I don't care.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:04 UTC (Tue)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:41 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's not an argument, it's just contradiction.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 4:53 UTC (Tue)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link]
When what you say is semantically equivalent to to "But flighty seven under to in a the steal green," all that one can do is point out that it's incoherent nonsense.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:11 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 7:39 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
> "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" is a dystopian cliché for a _reason_.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 12:39 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link]
I... what? Do you seriously think your opponents want to reintroduce slavery, or are you just using the fact that some white men in the past kept slaves as a club to beat and discredit anyone today who doesn't get on board with your program? Because that latter is a classic example of trying to hold _me_ responsible for someone _else's_ crimes, which is exactly the kind of shit up with which I have already declared my unwillingness to put.
If you're allowed to claim individual justice means slavery, then I'm allowed to claim social justice means gulags and holodomor. See how easy (and unproductive) this is?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:09 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
It's really striking that you, ostensibly with such familiarity with former Soviet states, would so ardently approve of using their tactics today. You were born in the wrong era, comrade.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:26 UTC (Tue)
by xanni (subscriber, #361)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:41 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:31 UTC (Tue)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link] (17 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:04 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 11:54 UTC (Tue)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link] (15 responses)
But how about this more recent comment: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/JkybCs88KthoA32Yc/the-cas...
Posted Sep 18, 2018 12:31 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (14 responses)
Rather, it's talking about how intelligence _statistically_ correlates with some genetic indicia, and that therefore when _other_ statistics on _representation_ show an ethnic group (not a 'social group', I'm not sure what you even mean by that) to be over- or under-represented in a project, firm or profession where intelligence is important, that is not necessarily a sign that the relevant gatekeepers are engaged in racial discrimination.
And how this fits with 'individual justice' is that those statistics should not be used to prejudice one's judgement of any individual (in either direction): the datum is not the distribution, the person is not the population.
I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:08 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (13 responses)
It is hard to imagine how increased intelligence genes could concentrate in any part of the population when most of the population shares all its ancestors with everyone else only a thousand or so years ago. Of the active loci on the genome which appear to be under selective sweeps at present, none whose function is known have ever been associated with intelligence, increased or decreased (except for those associated with serious mental diseases). Spermatozoa formation, sure. Immune function, sure. Intelligence? Nope.
So this is basically a racist talking point without scientific foundation at present. (I say this because almost everyone who makes this point goes on to say that people with skin colours not their own *obviously* have lower intelligence. They never seem to suggest higher intelligence than the speaker. Odd that.)
There is one case of a genetic change that may boost intelligence, among some Ashkenazi populations -- but this is on the edge of statistical noise, and that possibly-one-to-five-point-if-you-squint increase in IQ seems to come with Tay-Sachs attached and affect only Tay-Sachs carriers. And it's probably noise anyway. All that's really clear is the Tay-Sachs, and speaking as one whose family was brushed by it you wouldn't want *that* even if it came with a hundred-point intelligence boost. There are no known alleles that boost intelligence without giving you a disastrous neurological condition: none that are not also shared with every other living human.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:52 UTC (Tue)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 20, 2018 8:19 UTC (Thu)
by smckay (guest, #103253)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 20, 2018 8:41 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (4 responses)
IQ is not “meaningless”. It just doesn't mean what people think it means.
Posted Sep 21, 2018 10:51 UTC (Fri)
by jezuch (subscriber, #52988)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 21, 2018 11:42 UTC (Fri)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (2 responses)
IQ still probably isn't a great measure of anything other than your ability to answer IQ tests, and it seems to be very hard to test outliers who are multiple standard deviations from the mean, but I don't see why those are issues for Mensa, which is just a club for people who are fairly good at IQ tests.
Posted Sep 21, 2018 13:47 UTC (Fri)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
And of course there's probably a certain overlap between the set of people who do well on IQ tests and the set of people who are really quite smart, but it would be naïve to assume that these two sets of people are identical.
(Notwithstanding this, Mensa is popularly thought of as “a bunch of really quite smart people” rather than “a bunch of people who do well on IQ tests”, but that is neither here nor there.)
Posted Sep 24, 2018 8:34 UTC (Mon)
by jezuch (subscriber, #52988)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 23:24 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (5 responses)
I, like ESR from whom I learned this (and no doubt the peanut gallery will hoot about that), am happy to state that the mean IQs of both Ashkenazim and some Asian ethnicities are higher than that of my own ethnicity. The culture with which I identify is a far more important part of my identity than the colour of my skin (Americans like to claim that theirs is the first propositional nation, but Britain was way ahead of them in defining nationality by values rather than blood), and besides I have more than enough information about my own intelligence to screen off any Bayesian evidence obtained via my albedo. I don't _like_ the fact that, say, sub-Saharan Africans have a mean IQ of about 70; combined with the evidence on heritability of IQ, it's a sign that bringing them out of poverty is going to be hard, because for all your IQ-is-not-intelligence bien-pensantry, IQ is still highly predictive of life outcomes. If calling it 'intelligence' bothers you because you think such a term implies a judgement about someone's value as a human being, then call it g instead. But g is predictive of (for example) programming ability, so one should expect software industry demographics to reflect demographic variance in g even in the absence of any kind of discrimination — which is the point I was originally making. It's interesting that you should mention those in juxtaposition, because it's my understanding that the two are correlated in a way suspected to be causal. Can't find the cite right now, sorry. What part of "those statistics should not be used to prejudice one's judgement of any individual" did you not understand? If you think I'm a racist, then you have stripped the term of all meaning. But then, you're using the same arguments as those who stripped the term 'sexist' of all meaning by applying it to James Damore.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 14:12 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (3 responses)
Is that CAUSE or EFFECT? Are sub-saharans poor because they lack intellect, or do they lack intellect because they are poor? Oh - and poverty would make IQ *appear* to be inherited, because it's caused by the environment which these people cannot escape from.
It is now pretty much accepted that rich people are beautiful because they are rich. The causes are complex, but at least one MAJOR contribution to being beautiful is access to resources, namely a well-fed mum during pregnancy. Who's to say that IQ isn't the same? Poor nutrition leads to intellectually stunted babies?
So while I agree bring sub-saharans out of poverty may be difficult, because they aren't clever, the easy way to do it (within just ONE or TWO generations) is to give them - the pregnant women and young kids at least - decent access to resources. IQ will very quickly "revert to the norm". There's a lot of evidence that changes like this may take a couple of generations to occur (poor birth/childhood nutrition usually impacts on your own children), but it happens very very quickly in evolutionary terms.
Cheers,
Posted Sep 19, 2018 14:59 UTC (Wed)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (1 responses)
One would also want to question exactly how “IQ” is being measured to arrive at that conclusion. It may well be the case that the testing method is (possibly inadvertently) biased to give an edge to well-to-do Westerners with a high school diploma. “Intelligence” testing is a slippery concept at best.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 15:48 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
This is widely known, and has been for decades. Comparison of IQ scores across cultures is more or less meaningless as a result.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 15:01 UTC (Wed)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link]
People who don't know what they're talking about are often ignorant of the grand pre-colonial societies, states, and empires of sub-Saharan Africa, every bit as sophisticated as their contemporaries in Asia (incidentally, through the 15th century Ming China was far and away the preeminent world power) and Europe.
Their lack of ability to resist European incursion was not due to any lack of capacity to do so, but because the conditions (especially geographic) that prevailed throughout most of sub-Saharan Africa had made developing the means by which they would have been able to do so unnecessary or useless up until that point, so they just weren't prepared for it.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 8:23 UTC (Thu)
by smckay (guest, #103253)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:07 UTC (Tue)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:42 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Not that there is any danger of this in the kernel. I don't think Linus even *has* a gallows.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 6:26 UTC (Wed)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:46 UTC (Tue)
by MarcB (guest, #101804)
[Link]
Nowadays, post "Gamergate", it is often used as part of "social justice warrior" (SJW), and in this context it *does not have the original meaning*. Rather it is an extremely loaded word and often used like the equally loaded "Cultural Marxism".
Often, if someone calls someone else out as a "social justice warrior", or uses "social justice" in a way derived backwards from "social justice warrior", this person considers himself or herself to be part of some "culture war" - or rather crusade - against said SJWs. So it is wise to tread carefully around such people. They usually have some overriding agenda and view *everything* in the context of their crusade. (Like interpreting opposition to personal insults as a vile attempt so limit personal freedom).
To bring in the other "hot topic": Lennart Poettering was and is repeatedly labelled as an SJW. Some of the "criticism" of Systemd was, and still is, actually based on this. IMHO this is one of the reasons, why it is such a volatile topic: it had a strong political component from the very beginning, but (almost) no one wanted to admit it, so the criticism had to be disguised as "technical".
Matthew Garrett was also hit with the SJW bat, and nowadays, this can easily happen to anyone who goes as far as publicly advocating basic politeness or taking issue with personal insults. Or just by association.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:55 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
You'd be able to have more intelligent debate, be happier, and have more influence if you moved past that paper tiger.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:30 UTC (Mon)
by mfuzzey (subscriber, #57966)
[Link] (84 responses)
The vast majority of contributors are just email addresses and others on the mailing lists may even be unaware of their gender or nationality and are almost certainly unaware of their sexual orientation or politics. I realize this may not be the case for maintainers who meet regularly at conferences.
But I have never heard of anyone being excluded from working on the kernel for any of that.
However "level of experience" seems a very strange thing to include. If someone without even a basic knowledge of C tries posting kernel patches they're not going to get very far and I don't think they should expect handholding from maintainers who have better things to do than teach entry level C programming.
Not saying they should be personally insulted but just asked to come back when they have more experience.
As to harsh language or swearing on mailing lists its pretty much orthogonal to discrimination since it is not targeting any group of individual and is almost always directed at *code* or an *idea* and not a *person*.
Sure some people may be uncomfortable with being told directly "your idea is stupid" or "your code is crap" but others (myself included) prefer that to beating about the bush. You can't please everyone.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:28 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
It is possible, in fact rather easy, to reject code and ideas without being verbally abusive. Someone who can't learn to do that isn't a good enough communicator to have a leadership role in open source projects.
It's really not that hard. Linus-style behaviour was never ever acceptable at Mozilla, and I can't think of a single person in my 15 years there who was unable to work within that constraint.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:44 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (82 responses)
Well, yes. The correct norm is "ye shall judge by the code alone", and as you say, hitherto no-one has been excluded from kernel development for any irrelevant factors like gender, orientation, politics etc. My fear is that in the future people will be excluded from kernel development for refusing to participate in the Two Minutes' Hate. For the record, I'd like anyone reviewing my code to be utterly direct about it. If you think my code is crap, tell me in no uncertain terms. If possible, make it so funny it gets on slashdot. As a wise man once said: "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle".
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:25 UTC (Mon)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link] (1 responses)
Because your code is being judged by squishy meatbags rather than immaculate silicon saints, the only way to achieve that is for all code submissions to be developed in private then submitted anonymously, without comment or explanation, and passed through a stylistic sanitization system before it comes into view.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 8:33 UTC (Thu)
by smckay (guest, #103253)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:43 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yeah, because telling people to act decently to each other is *just like* the architecture of evil described in 1984. No difference whatsoever, except, uh, all of it. (In particular, note that in 1984 the state acted extremely indecently to everyone -- but this code of conduct is principally directed at the behaviour of the *kernel maintainers*, i.e. *the power structure*. This is the very opposite of 1984.)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 3:03 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link]
Winston Smith worked at the Ministry of Truth; and the Proles were left much more to their own devices than anyone in 'the power structure'. Sorry, thank you for playing, etc.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 20:31 UTC (Tue)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link] (1 responses)
In modern SJW terms the "Two Minute Hate" is when everyone MUST join in black-listing Developer A because he was accused of sexual assault at last years developer conference. The SJWs want to pile on. For no technical reason whatsoever they want to demand that Developer A be banned from the project and all patches rejected. This, for not even a criminal matter, just the ALLEGATION of something that cannot be proved.
As soon as Developer B says something like "I don't care about it. Developer A writes good code and I'm accepting his patches." then they start demanding Developer B denounce Developer A. Because if he doesn't join in the accusations he must "support" sexual harassment.
It's even worse if Developer C writes something like "There's no evidence that accusation is true." because that's obviously by SJW standards an accusation that the female is LYING. Developer C must hate women. Even implying that a woman can tell a lie is hate speech! Developer C is spreading hate! Let's all ban Developer C!
And the Two Minute Hate moves on to its next target.
The above process has nothing to do with "act decently to each other." It's all about picking out someone and CLAIMING, often with NO EVIDENCE, that they acted badly and must be shunned. Anyone who refuses to join in or defends the target gets added to the enemy list.
The "If you aren't with us, you're against us" attitude many SJWs have is one of the things I hate about them most. It's illogical and stupid. Any number of people can be against your specific idea without opposing your general goal.
The "If you aren't with us, you must agree with our enemies." line is even more illogical and stupid, and yet I see many posts on this very thread claiming "If you don't like Codes of Conduct you must be an evil Nazi who wants to insult other people." (I may be exaggerating)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 11:02 UTC (Wed)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link]
I have also never ever demanded that anyone be banned from a project. Have never ever demanded that anyone denounce anyone else or join some accusations. I have never in my life denied that women can lie.
Based on this, I really wonder how you arrived at your claims that "the SJWs want to pile on. For no technical reason whatsoever they want to demand..." etc. That's clearly not true.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:53 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (5 responses)
Got examples of this from the many many projects that have had codes of conduct for a long time?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:47 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (4 responses)
While there hasn't yet (to my knowledge) been an instance of someone getting purged for objecting to a purge, I believe that that's at least in part because there are still enough honest developers who know they're not alone, and that therefore squawking publically about the slippery slope of SJW entryism whenever they take another salami-slice off us is a defensible social good.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:56 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yarvin, Brendan, and Damore are not examples of people excluded by open-source project codes of conduct.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:50 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (1 responses)
The first defendants in civil liberties cases are almost always werewolves. Of course they set a precedent; the precedent is that if you can be made to look like a werewolf, you too can lose your rights. And with the speed the Overton Window is moving nowadays, anyone with consistent, principled beliefs can go from moderate to werewolf in about a decade.
> Yarvin, Brendan, and Damore are not examples of people excluded by open-source project codes of conduct.
I did indicate that they were cases of the wider exclusion mechanism at work, rather than satisfying all the details of the conjunction 'excluded by open-source project codes of conduct'. Perhaps I could have indicated it more clearly. I maintain that they are nonetheless relevant as an illustration of how the broader societal phenomenon interacts with the tech industry. (Oh, and one element of the conjunction, 'open-source', wasn't present in your request for examples. Many companies have entryist-written codes of conduct too, they just call them 'HR policies on diversity and inclusiveness'.)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:17 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
That's a fair point.
I don't believe defending those liberties requires preemptive strikes against the codes of conduct currently being adopted by open-source projects.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:47 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
As for not getting invited to a conference, well, you do know that invitations to conferences are not rights? If people don't want to speak to you, they can be rescinded, and frankly if someone is planning to do that sort of rescinding it is probably a sign that the conference itself would be so caked in social ice from the disapproval of the committee etc if you *were* present that you probably don't want to go in any case. (Unless you *like* starting fights, of course, in which case I can see why nobody else would want you present!)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:54 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (69 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:04 UTC (Mon)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (68 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:29 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
It is eminently reasonable to tell people they are wrong or more precisely how their contributions should be improved to be acceptable. You don't need to insult anyone for doing that however.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:38 UTC (Mon)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (46 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:41 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:48 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 23:51 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (9 responses)
If you told a physically disabled person "you're just using your disability as an excuse to get pushed everywhere in a wheelchair, I know this because that person over there has the same condition and walks with a stick", I think it'd be pretty damned obvious that you were crossing a line.
If you told a genderqueer person they were using their dysphoria as an excuse to make it hard for other people to interact with them by imposing extra cognitive load on language use, because you know a gender nonbinary person who doesn't mind when you use the pronoun 'he' for him, you'd be ridden out of town on a rail by a Twitter mob.
You know neither my patterns of behaviour (outside of this thread, where I believe I have succeeded in keeping my civility while all about me were losing theirs and blaming it on me) nor the extent to which my neurological differences cause those patterns of behaviour. You cannot determine the latter simply by extrapolating from other people with Asperger's, because the spectrum is a broad (and multi-dimensional) one.
In short, how _very_ dare you.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 0:06 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (8 responses)
As I pointed out in https://lwn.net/Articles/765199/, you haven't. But as for your central thesis here - you may well have a neurological condition that makes it impossible for you to accurately identify criticism of a patch unless it's couched in abusive terms, but if you do it's well outside the symptoms associated with Asperger's and you don't get to use that diagnosis as an explanation.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:02 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (7 responses)
Given that you know what the term "snowflake" means, it's entirely appropriate to use it _in a hypothetical_. That's in no way equivalent to applying the term _to a specified individual_. In particular note that for my hypothetical I do not even require that snowflakes exist, only that _a reviewer believes that they may_ and thus uses language calibrated to not offend them.
The freedom to use accurately descriptive terms instead of less-well-defined euphemisms or circumlocutions is one of the things I'm arguing for, dammit! It's like when using "master/slave" to describe the relationship between two computer processes _is accurate and descriptive_, but certain people object to it on the (true but irrelevant) grounds that an analogous relationship between two humans is unjust.
> accurately identify criticism of a patch unless it's couched in abusive terms
I think we have been talking at cross-purposes. It is not that I think the abusive terms are necessary (Linus could shoot down bad patches just fine without swearing). It's that any rules you craft to outlaw them will admit of interpretations under which they cover mere bluntness and directness, which _are_ necessary, and thus such rules are bad jurisprudence.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:15 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (6 responses)
It's a term generally understood to be derogatory, and you're using it to refer to people who are offended by someone saying "This code is crap". It's an insult to anyone who falls into that category, which is a category that includes real people. You don't get to wave it away as a hypothetical.
> t's like when using "master/slave" to describe the relationship between two computer processes _is accurate and descriptive_
(Not strictly relevant to this conversation, but it basically never is accurate)
> Linus could shoot down bad patches just fine without swearing
Which isn't what people are asking for - it's entirely possible to be abusive without swearing, and the conflation is unhelpful. Can you point to any cases where direct but reasonable patch review has resulted in people asserting that a CoC has been breached?
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:57 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (5 responses)
No, you have the implication the wrong way round. I assert merely that a snowflake will be offended by that, not that anyone offended by that is a snowflake.
> but it basically never is accurate
Of course it's accurate, when one process issues commands and another process must slavishly follow them, that's a master-slave relationship. I remain baffled by people who deny this — does it not count because the slave process doesn't get flogged with whips?
> Which isn't what people are asking for
https://lwn.net/Articles/765327/ (thus-I-refute-thee)
> Can you point to any cases
While there wasn't a CoC at the time, I maintain that Linus' review of Popov's patches was direct-but-reasonable. The way I parse
Posted Sep 19, 2018 3:22 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (4 responses)
So it'll offend people who aren't snowflakes? If people who aren't unusually sensitive are offended, don't you see that as a problem?
> Of course it's accurate, when one process issues commands and another process must slavishly follow them, that's a master-slave relationship
How frequently is that the case? In IDE, "master/slave" didn't refer to that sort of relationship at all. In DNS, the "slave" and the "master" do equivalent jobs. The changes that were made to Python's documentation brought it into accordance with the documentation for fork(2). The argument that "master/slave" is somehow uniquely descriptive of any of these relationships is entirely inaccurate.
> https://lwn.net/Articles/765327/ (thus-I-refute-thee)
To the best of my knowledge nix isn't a member of the kernel community, so this is pretty irrelevant.
> While there wasn't a CoC at the time
So, uh, you can't. Cool. The Contributor Covenant has been used by a wide range of projects for some time now. You ought to be easily able to find examples of it being used to shut down criticism that you think is reasonable.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 4:11 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (3 responses)
People who, though not snowflakes, are sensitive *enough* to be offended by criticism of their code still need to (metaphorically) grow a pair if they want to contribute to a project that is _holding up the damn sky_. Compared to the damage a kernel bug could wreak on civilisation (heck, a bug in my code could _literally crash the world's financial markets_, and yes that responsibility sometimes keeps me awake at night. And this is a _mild_ example!), people being offended is _lost in the underflow_. Until you can show me that offending such people leads to a worse kernel than accommodating them, I am not interested.
> In IDE, "master/slave" didn't refer to that sort of relationship at all.
Yes, and for IDE, it was bad terminology. (That doesn't mean we aren't stuck with it, at least for as long as we're stuck with IDE at all.)
That doesn't mean there aren't cases when the terminology is accurate. A DNS master is read-write while a slave is read-only (it may only repeat what its master has told it). And I notice you avoided mentioning databases; master/slave replication consists _entirely_ of a one-way command stream.
> Which isn't what people are asking for
Way to move the goalposts, narrowing "people" to "members of the kernel community".
> So, uh, you can't.
I don't follow the development discussions of the other projects listed as having adopted the CC. In fact I've never heard of most of them. (First they came for AngularJS, and I did not speak out, because I was not a web designer. Then they came for Eclipse, and I did not speak out, because I use gedit and ed. Then they came for phpMyAdmin, and I did not speak out, because who runs PHP in 2018?) And since I'm not on any of the outrage-propagation social networks, I don't tend to hear of these things. I maintain that my inability to cite precedent does not mean the CC is not dangerous.
Also, if people self-censor in the expectation that directness will be punished under the CoC, then the CoC can prevent directness without generating any examples of punishment (the 'chilling effect').
Posted Sep 19, 2018 9:51 UTC (Wed)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
Somebody who is incapable of discerning the difference IMHO has far worse problems than might be fixed by adhering, or not adhering, to a CoC.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 17:24 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Offending such people results in them not contributing. For that to lead to a better kernel, we would need to posit that the ability to write high quality code is positively linked to ability to withstand abusive behaviour. That's a fairly extraordinary claim, and I think the onus is on you to demonstrate a plausible reason for it to be true.
> A DNS master is read-write while a slave is read-only (it may only repeat what its master has told it).
A DNS "slave" does exactly the same job as a DNS "master", except the "master" is the authoritative source of truth. This is not how real world master/slave relationships play out. DNS is, in this respect, equivalent to how we handle software repositories - you have a primary, and you have mirrors that reflect the primary. That terminology more accurately reflects what's going on, and doesn't carry the historical baggage. The same situation applies to databases, except in many database setups there's an expectation that in the case of failure one of the mirrors will actually take over the role of the primary - something that's even further from the analogy.
> I maintain that my inability to cite precedent does not mean the CC is not dangerous.
I maintain that multiple projects have adopted an almost identical code of conduct and the situations you are concerned about have not come up. You're not providing any evidence to support your concerns, so I don't see why anybody should take them overly seriously.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 0:27 UTC (Thu)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Good. I hope that means you agree the kernel community needs to be much more serious about writing tests, running them on every commit, and backing out patches that cause test failures, like other big projects do. Other projects require that every new feature and bug fix comes with automated tests that will run regularly; the kernel should too. Other projects have "try servers" that let you run the full test suite on patches even before they land; the kernel should too.
If you try to push the community in this direction, people will complain it makes development slower and less fun. I hope you'll be able to convince them it's the right thing to do anyway.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:12 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (31 responses)
But the point is that what I find merely, uh, 'refreshingly frank and direct', someone else might find abusive.
If someone says "this code is crap", I understand them, whereas J. Random Snowflake gets offended. So instead the someone says "I wonder if an alternative approach might be more suitable", and I fail to notice that they think the code is crap, because I can't read subtle cues.
See http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/26/conversation-deliber... for an explanation: politeness (in rejection) is fundamentally made of plausible deniability, which means a statement politely calibrated to be almost-ambiguous to a neurotypical will just *whoosh* straight over an aspie's head.
Also (since sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander), stop denying my lived experience! :-P
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:27 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (14 responses)
In this case it was:
This is not "your code is crap". Not even close.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:40 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (13 responses)
It's using a Monty Python reference (another hallowed hacker tradition) to amplify a "your code is crap" with an "and the stated reason for the code is *also* crap".
Unless the recipient has PTSD from a tragic hamster-farting incident, I refuse to believe that anyone can be hurt by this sort of Very Silly Party pretend-insult. Calling it 'harassment' is frankly ridiculous (bordering on therdiglob).
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:45 UTC (Tue)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (7 responses)
Did you miss the fact that the developer that Linus was replying to felt it harassment or are you just dismissing it?
https://lwn.net/Articles/764325/
Would you also dismiss - That interaction left Popov "emotionally dead for several weeks"?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:45 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (5 responses)
Yes, I'm dismissing the fact that Popov claimed to feel it harassment. If I allow my behaviour to be constrained by everyone's self-report of hurt feelings, then I am writing a blank cheque on my entire self. Thank you, no.
If https://lwn.net/Articles/748647/ and https://lwn.net/Articles/748649/ really gave Popov a major depressive episode lasting "several weeks", then Popov would seem to have some issues that are not about Linus at all, and should probably get some kind of help, and I say that as someone who has suffered from depression and needed to be told to seek help.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:51 UTC (Tue)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Why do you think he is lying and are several other kernel developers who have echoed similar feelings lying too? What motivation would they have to make such claims?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:58 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:22 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (1 responses)
For them, one of two things will happen: a) they will continue doubling-down until they or a person they admire is excommunicated, at which point they will attain sudden enlightenment and change sides, or b) they will become ever more extreme as they excommunicate all others.
Consuming its own tail, the snake will eventually consume itself. Hopefully it will not destroy civilization as it flails in agony.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:52 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Oh, you don't have any, other than that they have the temerity to disagree with you. What a surprise.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 11:44 UTC (Wed)
by arnout (subscriber, #94240)
[Link]
To me, this sounds like: reviewers should take into account contributors who have Asperger's (as per your earlier statement that a review should say "this code is crap" rather than "this code would be better written as"), but should not take into account people who feel harassed when they are insulted. Is that correct?
Posted Sep 19, 2018 18:08 UTC (Wed)
by Jandar (subscriber, #85683)
[Link]
Popov cited the mails as
> On 15.08.2018 23:56, Kees Cook wrote:
[...]
>>> I care not one whit about the reason for them. In fact, if the reason
But Cooks mail from 15.08.2018 23:56 hasn't cited the (perceived) insult from Linus at all. This is not completely genuine.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:12 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
On an aside, in a Russian translation of that movie they substituted that particular insult with a more neutral one.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:11 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (3 responses)
Which is why I always put it as
1) Be slow to take offence
So "your mom" jokes are perfectly acceptable UNTIL the speaker realises you are in the audience, at which point he falls foul of (3).
Unless, of course, we have a mix of English and American people talking about people from Africa, at which point we have to rely on (1) because the only word in my English vocabulary is "black", which gives offence to a lot of Americans.
At the end of the day, we have to be sensitive to our audience - which is hard for Aspies ...
Cheers,
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:10 UTC (Tue)
by pflykt (subscriber, #2757)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:25 UTC (Tue)
by MarcB (guest, #101804)
[Link]
They almost certainly are not acceptable if there is a power gradient between the involved persons. IMHO this is one of the major issues with Linus' rants, he essentially is the boss, and while someone like Al Viro might respond to him with "yeah, screw you, too" most people are not in that position (or at least do not perceive themselves to be).
Another nice example is "motherfucker". While in US English it has a very broad range of meanings, and can even be a compliment, non-native speakers might be extremely offended. I have seen a German freak out because of "you awesome motherfucker". The literal translation could easily be taken to court here.
Of course, this also goes the other way around. "Master-Slave" is totally inoffensive in German, because it is purely a technical term, or at most used in a sexual context. No one would think about blacks and cotton plantations. ("Blacks" is also interesiting. There was some drive to declare it offensive in Germany, but the replacements were so absurd that it failed).
So clear communiction is important, combined with your rule of "be slow to take offence".
Posted Sep 18, 2018 21:59 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:27 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (3 responses)
Is "This patch has the following issues which will need to be rectified before I'm willing to apply it" insufficiently clear for you?
> J. Random Snowflake gets offended
The implication that anyone who is unhappy about being told that their patch is crap is some sort of special fragile individual is fairly generally insulting.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:19 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:57 UTC (Tue)
by csigler (subscriber, #1224)
[Link] (1 responses)
If I may, perhaps a larger issue could be missed. How one feels -- good, hurt or indifferent -- is orthogonal to code quality. How one feels should have no bearing on code review and their participation in it. It is mature to accept criticism and use such to improve performance. This benefits the whole community.
Clemmitt
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:49 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:49 UTC (Tue)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:21 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (10 responses)
Yes, you, who saw me at work every day, and therefore knew me well enough to have noticed that I was not exactly neurotypical, were able to take that into account in how you communicated with me. (Also I don't recall any cases when you needed to give me a good, hard, the-whole-concept-of-this-patch-is-wrong NAKing. Though maybe that's because they didn't come with verbal fireworks to make the lesson memorable.)
But some random maintainer who's maybe never interacted with me before, who maybe comes from a non-Western culture and is thus already picking through a minefield of possible ways to accidentally give offence, is going to err on the side of non-confrontational caution to avoid falling foul of the Code of Conduct.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:28 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
I don't think that makes me exceptional. I did not observe my colleagues having these problems either.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 12:01 UTC (Tue)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:13 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (7 responses)
Invoking phrases like snowflake and sjw are clear indicators that your comments are not to be taken seriously. You should really be able to work that out based on observed behavior without having to resort to a lot of emotion-reading.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 0:08 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (6 responses)
Because I'm able (indeed, inclined) to read a statement denotationally, rather than connotationally, my instinct is to use the word that most concisely and completely signifies a given concept (doing as I would be done by). Once my brain has identified, for instance, the word 'snowflake' as being the generally recognised descriptor for 'extreme case of emotional sensitivity to criticism', the anchoring effect makes it harder to think of other, less 'loaded' words or phrases for the same concept.
Just one of the ways it's difficult for me to communicate in ways others find 'acceptable'. The word probably wouldn't even _occur_ to a neurotypical, because it's _low-status_ (unless of course they're writing for a right-wing audience, in which case it becomes high-status as an in-group signifier).
Posted Sep 19, 2018 0:27 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:15 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yes, I recognise that. I also question whether their "emotional reaction" is as important as the quality of a piece of software that runs in life-or-death situations and metaphorically holds up the sky for modern civilisation. As I said in another branch of this by now rather sprawling thread, I was using irony to highlight the absurdity of the demands for affordances — that the same set of standards that require me to make affordances for others also require others to make affordances for me that are incompatible with the first requirement; and that once you accept self-reports of victimhood and oppression the inevitable outcome is a power struggle over who gets to be identified as oppressed. I don't really believe that I deserve special treatment on account of my neurodiversity. But I do believe my claim to same is every bit as valid as anyone else's claim for special accommodations at the cost of others (which is to say, of course, not one whit).
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:36 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (2 responses)
It's unclear what those have to do with one another. People who are capable of writing high quality code have been driven away from the kernel community by the behaviour of Linus and others. Are you arguing that people who have emotional responses to abusive criticism are less capable of writing high quality code?
> But I do believe my claim to same is every bit as valid as anyone else's claim for special accommodations at the cost of others (which is to say, of course, not one whit).
The kernel community currently makes accommodations for people by permitting them to act in ways that would be firing offenses in most companies. The CoC is a statement that that accommodation may no longer be granted. So, uh, what's the problem?
Posted Sep 19, 2018 4:34 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (1 responses)
No, I'm rejecting the claim that the criticism under discussion was abusive, and arguing that people who can't interact with a robust code review process because of their emotional responses to (non-abusive) criticism are less capable of writing high quality code (because the code review is an important factor in _making_ high quality code).
> The kernel community currently makes accommodations for people by permitting them to act in ways that would be firing offenses in most companies.
No. You do not get to throw the burden of justification onto me like that; allowing people to speak freely is not an accommodation. And the self-destructive HR policies of "most companies" are irrelevant to _community_ questions. (If, for example, the LF were to fire Linus for being rude, that's up to them. But they don't have the standing to take away his community leadership.)
And I stress again that "the kernel community" did not choose to adopt the CoC; there was _no discussion_ on the mailing lists of a document claiming that "we" (contributors, maintainers) pledge various things (the 'Our Responsibilities' section implies that *I* am now responsible for policing the speech of contributors to a certain Ethernet driver). That is presuming my consent against me, and consent is very important to me.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 17:55 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
The ultimate decision on whether or not to accept a patch is still going to be made by the same people. Why would they lower their standards? Nothing in the CoC ever compels someone to accept a patch that they don't want to.
> allowing people to speak freely is not an accommodation
It absolutely is. There's no expectation that people be able to, say, engage in racial abuse on LKML - some level of social restriction on freedom of speech already exists, and if someone were to turn up and insist that they needed to be able to engage in racial abuse in order to communicate they'd find themselves unsubscribed pretty quickly (as has happened to the various MikeeUSA sockpuppets). The line of acceptable behaviour already exists, you just don't like where it's being explicitly drawn.
> That is presuming my consent against me, and consent is very important to me.
It's not presuming your consent at all, it's adding a condition to your future participation. If you find that condition unacceptable then you should let your employers know - they can either make a case to the Linux Foundation or move you to another role. Remember that participation in the kernel is a privilege, not a right, and our involvement as always been at the whims of Linus. I'm well aware of how much it sucks when he makes decisions I don't like without consulting with the rest of the community, and I'm also aware that there's nothing I can do about it.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 7:37 UTC (Wed)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:03 UTC (Tue)
by pflykt (subscriber, #2757)
[Link] (1 responses)
True.
> If you inadvertently communicate with someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable or unhappy then you're entirely capable of apologising.
Not likely. If you have Asperger's, you don't have all the proper means to understand that what you just communicated makes them uncomfortable or unhappy. If you try hard enough, you can avoid it in the future, but not without a long and thorough conversation with the other end of the communication. Needless to say, that communication happens only with your good friends, it won't happen with some more or less random person on the Internet. So not everybody are capable of an apology or noticing that they offended someone. The socially more capable need to bend not to start a flame war, or, in the old times, hang a sign "Do Not Feed The Trolls" early onto the discussion.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:01 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:51 UTC (Mon)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:18 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:56 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:17 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:34 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
The contributors pledge not to harrass people -- likely a good thing, and *definitely* not something anyone with the usual social-stress-oh-crap-withdrawal response of someone on the autistic spectrum would have trouble with (we tend to flinch away at the least sign of conflict). Being welcoming is not hard. Being respectful -- or at least learning to use respectful phrasing -- is not hard. Accepting constructive criticism is crucial for any software developer who wants to learn anything, so even though it *is* quite hard whether you have autism or not it's still worth learning to do.
Showing empathy... well, 'empathy' in this context does not actually mean the same thing psychologists mean by 'empathy', i.e. magical neurotypical mind-reading. Instead, it's something autistics are actually better at than normal people: feel their pain. Imagine whatever you just wrote to them directed at you instead. If it seems horrifyingly unpleasant, don't send it. That's all!
What else is there? What shouldn't we do? Sexualized language, well, that's a simple self-censorship loop after writing an email (and, again, this is something one hopes you can do anyway or you'll have real trouble in the world outside the computer screen, though it is also something some people with *very* severe autism have some trouble with, usually when they have been taught to fake social interaction by repeating social routines without understanding. Poor sods. I don't really know how to heal someone who's been damaged by that sort of thing, since thank goodness it was never inflicted on me). Avoiding trolling and personal/political attacks also seems like a generally good and easy thing to do, assuming you know when you're doing it (if you're not, see the next paragraph). Doxxing them, likewise. (You'd think you couldn't do that without intent but I have in fact done it accidentally by losing track of who knew someone else's work address...)
As with almost all human interaction, intent matters: and in this case it's *your* intent, which is easy for autistics to derive, rather than someone else's, which is basically impossible magic. If you mess up and people are posting 'dude, what the hell?' at you or reporting you to the TAB -- if you are on the spectrum, you've done this in real life dozens of times entirely by accident and you already know the cure, which works every time unless you're talking to someone who is acting in bad faith (in which case you had lost before you started because they would *invent* something to attack you with if need be, CoC or no): don't get defensive, but apologize immediately. People will forgive almost anything if it wasn't intentional and if they don't already view you as a bad-faith actor (at least if you don't do it too often and are visibly learning), and every time it happens a bit more of the boundaries that were obscure will become clear. Again, this is not something the code of conduct in some way enables: it's just the way human beings interact *whether they have a code of conduct or not*. If anything the code of conduct *improves* things here because the TAB stuff can happen in private mail so the embarrassing education bit after the screwup is not happening out there in public for all to see. I know I wish I'd had something like this in my early twenties when I was putting my foot in it and insulting people without knowing I was doing so on a weekly basis.
This is not something that is used to run you out of town on a rail on your first mistake: it's used to stop people who are *intentionally* ruining everyone's day from doing so, and to give people information about what sort of things the community considers best avoided: for those who are making a mistake it is a thing to point to to say 'please don't do that', because some people get all defensive about any sort of criticism until they are faced with a written document, as if just writing something down gives it magical powers. (I would have thought that there would be no need to say most of the things the CoC says because they are all totally obvious, but then I *am* middle-class British, so the mere thought of launching insulting tirades at people for any reason at all is automatically horrendous: this is clearly not true for everyone or this document would not be necessary. I always knew that insulting people was bad. My problem was figuring out when what I'd said would be taken as insulting, which means I fell on the right side of the intent divide. The same will happen to you -- unless you *are* actually trying to insult them. Again, these people have magic powers: if you try to insult them and then claim it was an accident, they will figure it out.)
The only real thing a person on the autistic spectrum might have difficulty with is frustration-induced explosions -- a very real ASD thing which is about as easy to hold back as any other explosion, and which can easily contain everything the CoC warns against and then some -- and what you do then is something you should have been doing anyway to avoid massively pissing people off: write the explosion with the To/Cc/Bcc lines diked out of the email, then delete it without sending. (It works for me! I can call people all *sorts* of horrible things and they never even know it or hold it against me. You can't do *that* in an office environment.)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 1:47 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (3 responses)
> As with almost all human interaction, intent matters: and in this case it's *your* intent, which is easy for autistics to derive
Only sufficient if others will accept my self-report of my intent. Did Sir Tim Hunt's intent save him?
> and you already know the cure, which works every time unless you're talking to someone who is acting in bad faith (in which case you had lost before you started because they would *invent* something to attack you with if need be, CoC or no)
Except that, in practice, Codes of Conduct tend to enable high-functioning sociopaths who _are_ acting in bad faith, because they are able to use the CoC as a weapon to abuse and gain power over others. This is because we don't have good operational definitions of, for example, 'harassment' that don't involve a black box labelled "then a semantic miracle happens", meaning that determining whether a given incident counts is an essentially social process (and thus particularly tilted against autistics).
> Imagine whatever you just wrote to them directed at you instead. If it seems horrifyingly unpleasant, don't send it.
Except that what _I_ find unpleasant is very different (not just in degree but also in nature) to what many other people find unpleasant.
> write the explosion with the To/Cc/Bcc lines diked out of the email, then delete it without sending
Interesting to learn that I'm not the only person who does this. In fact (though you probably wouldn't guess it) I've done it several times on this very comment thread.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 12:51 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Tim Hunt lost what is basically a PR position (that's what honorary positions are for) because, y'know, he put his foot in it in a way that others might well interpret badly, reflecting badly on the institution of which he was an honorary member. This point would have more relevance if the CoC was in place in a community of movie stars. Nobody *expects* kernel developers to be brilliant shining PR lights.
> Codes of Conduct tend to enable high-functioning sociopaths who _are_ acting in bad faith
Really? Every time I've ever seen one put in force, if and only if the project is high-profile it is immediately *tested* by such sociopaths, trying to use it as an excuse to act as horribly as possible. Usually these people have never been seen before and will never be seen again. The project itself does not change to be led by sociopaths because of the presence of a code requesting you not be horrible to people. It is hard for me to imagine any means by which this might take place, nor any reason why a sociopath would want to do it (I mean the mere existence of the code already suggests that this will be a hostile environment for people like them, so why not hunt somewhere easier?)
>> write the explosion with the To/Cc/Bcc lines diked out of the email, then delete it without sending
> Interesting to learn that I'm not the only person who does this
Isn't it something one is taught in more or less one's first month on the net? (Oh wait I'm thinking back to days when elder souls actually tried to provide some sort of induction. I'm showing my age. :) )
Posted Sep 19, 2018 13:14 UTC (Wed)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link]
I think nowadays most people's first month on the net comes when they're about 2 years old and learn to navigate Youtube on a smartphone to watch their favourite cartoons. That's not an ideal moment to try teaching them about email etiquette.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 16:16 UTC (Wed)
by MarcB (guest, #101804)
[Link]
That isn't really a valid argument. People like that will equally abuse the lack of a CoC for their purposes. In general, it is very hard to defend against smart, yet sociopathic, persons, no matter what you do. If they are smart, they will adapt. They will exploit rules and they will exploit a lack of rules. They will exploit ambiguities in rules and they will exploit overly specific rules. They will exploit gaps in monitoring and enforcement of rules and they will exploit very strict enforcement and monitoring (by entraping others).
> Except that what _I_ find unpleasant is very different (not just in degree but also in nature) to what many other people find unpleasant.
That is the point where empathy and some cultural sensitivity come in. Linus' "I fart in your general direction" and the "your mom" jokes are prime examples of this.
The first can only end well, if the recipient knows the movie, if he immediately recognizes the reference and if he automatically assumes it was not intended as a true insult. That are three very big "ifs" that one simply cannot assume to be true unless one knows the recipient very well.
Solution: avoid insults, even if they appear mild to you. The recipient might take them *very* differently. And again: unless you know the recipient very well.
> Interesting to learn that I'm not the only person who does this. In fact (though you probably wouldn't guess it) I've done it several times on this very comment thread.
I think a lot of people do that. It can be really therapeutic ;-)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:02 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:26 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 3:05 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 3:10 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:25 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:08 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (5 responses)
That's the point — I'm using irony to make the point that _by the SJWs' own standards_ they are oppressing me. But since my irony apparently whooshed straight over your head, I guess I must be an inept communicator ;-)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:33 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 11:21 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:47 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (1 responses)
But I have pressed Ctrl+F on this page and searched for "corbet," and I only get one other hit: the byline.
I am disappointed to see you not applying this rule equally. My comment is, of course, humourous, satire, and not aimed at anyone here in particular. But I, myself, have been personally attacked here, as well as others. I could link to specific comments and name names, but they're all here on this page.
So why aren't you enforcing the same rule against those who are on the other side of the issue, whose words are much more obviously and personally a violation? If I were to log in under my subscriber account, would I also receive a pass?
I don't ask lightly, because I've always considered you a person of integrity.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:00 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 7:38 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:27 UTC (Tue)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link] (9 responses)
You seemed to be quite capable of not doing this when we worked together. Why are standards of behaviour set by an open source community less valid than those set by your employer?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:23 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (8 responses)
'The community' did not set these standards of behaviour. The Code of Conduct is not the result of a long LKML thread reaching consensus. And my employer never adopted a Code of Conduct written by a Marxist fellow-traveller (or maybe useful-idiot, it's hard to tell for sure) with a history of weaponising identity politics and a manifesto about "post-meritocracy".
Details, and context, matter.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:06 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:41 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 6:45 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:16 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Ie, like me, you think a lot of Marx makes sense when viewed through a capitalist lens? Workers SHOULD own the means of production, but the State should most definitely NOT own it on their behalf!!!
Cheers,
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:40 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
At best, that's naive. At worst, deceptive. In your case, which is it?
> So... evidence please?
The point, of course, is that the political movement in question uses Marxist tactics, based on Marxist theory updated to the present time. It's just more class struggle, but instead of workers, it's minorities. "A rose by any other name."
Given your other comments, I'll be generous here and assume you're not a fan of the former USSR and Communism. So I will then ask: Are you honestly unconcerned to see Marxist tactics used widely and successfully in this day?
Posted Sep 19, 2018 3:29 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (1 responses)
The "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" contains several claims that are objectively collectivist and recognisably Marxist in origin. For example: Not only is "privilege" a rhetorical club used to beat those who resist progressivism, the notion of an "obligation... to improve the lives of others" is fundamentally collectivist (an individualist would say the only obligation is to not worsen the lives of others; 'an it harm none, do as ye will'). Indeed, the claim that
Finally, a clarification: by 'Marxist fellow-traveller or maybe useful-idiot' I meant to imply that I cannot tell, based on the information I have, whether Coraline is a Marxist or merely a dupe being used by Marxists to spread their toxic memes.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 7:49 UTC (Wed)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link]
We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others.
Not only is "privilege" a rhetorical club used to beat those who resist progressivism, the notion of an "obligation... to improve the lives of others" is fundamentally collectivist (an individualist would say the only obligation is to not worsen the lives of others; 'an it harm none, do as ye will')."
You might've misinterpreted the most obvious and egregious flaw in this. It isn't collectivist; rather, it is tyrannical for anyone to attempt to re-mold *my* life by his or her, or any other, standards. And it might be a little better to say that, by the social compact, we have a duty not to prevent anyone from improving her 'lot in life'; this differs from 'not worsen'.
On the other hand, civility requires us to lend a hand 'en passant'. The lady in front of you slips on the snowy sidewalk; you would civilly lend a hand and help her back to her feet without degrading her dignity. A man paying for a purchase finds himself short a dollar; you reach into your pocket and give him one without him 'losing face': "Sir, I think you dropped this." As the Spanish might say, "De nada." A newcomer (apprentice in some trades) to a project presents a carefully prepared set of corrections to improve a function; you might say, "Thank you; this is good. But it doesn't meet our coding standards (see URL); would you kindly modify it to meet those standards, then resubmit?" To a semi-experienced contributor (journeyman in some trades), you might say, "Nice, but you forgot the coding standards." To an old-timer you know well, you might privately say, "You puttin' yer jumper in the cooker, eejit? Didn't you master the coding standards years ago?" Civility is exercised, dignity is maintained, and the social compact is upheld. It really doesn't take that much effort.
Projects need a code of conduct only because too many people have forgotten how--or just don't care--to be polite, courteous, and civil. When this happens, dignity suffers and the social compact, be it tacit, spoken or written, is weakened.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 11:22 UTC (Wed)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link]
That sounds very much as proof right there that a Code of Conduct really is necessary in the first place.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:35 UTC (Tue)
by bentley (subscriber, #93468)
[Link] (3 responses)
Any reasonable reading of this would interpret that harassment is unacceptable for any reason. It just specifically calls out reasons for harassment that are often rationalized, defended, or ignored.
> Seeing this stuff infect Linux makes me want to override my own professionalism and _start_ getting sweary on mailing-lists, just to demonstrate that I can't be bound without my consent.
This seems like a really good strategy for getting banned from said mailing-lists.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:59 UTC (Tue)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link]
I think having an enumerated list of proscriptions runs the risk of legalistic arguments claiming that since a _particular_ prejudice isn't in the list, it's fair game. When a document designed to define reasonable behaviour itself relies on a reasonable reader, there is a problem.
> It just specifically calls out reasons for harassment that are often rationalized, defended, or ignored.
And yet it leaves out a reason for harassment that is more prevalent than several of those it lists. I mean, calling out discrimination over 'personal appearance' and 'body size' while ignoring Conquest's Second Law... in a document written by Coraline Ada Ehmke... I really don't think it's paranoia to worry about where this is going.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:08 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
And indeed this happens even on projects with no code of conduct at all. There are a couple of people who, well, even though I've killfiled them I can tell when they turn up to 'help out' one project or another because the entire project mailing list erupts into flames until they're banned. (They never leave of their own accord, but after a few months even the most dimwitted moderator is going to notice that these people are incapable of interacting with anyone, even to help them, without insulting them: and code of conduct or no they are crippling the project because a once-productive list has become a mass of flames and half the contributors have left until it calms down, or left permanently. So the mods invariably find a reason to ban them, even if they have to introduce the concept of list moderation in order to do so).
It's a shame: one of those people is quite knowledgeable and could be a positive asset if it wasn't for this unfortunate interaction style (which makes Linus's look like the acme of unruffled civility).
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:46 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
It's a shame the staff there seem to be more willing to put up with this nowadays; in the distant past they've gone as far as to ban distro maintainers from the distro's own forum for abusive conduct. The mailing lists didn't follow suit and became a fire hazard as a result.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:50 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (7 responses)
Political affilliation is not typically a protected attribute in most non-discrimination laws. Those few US jurisdictions that do protect it put a lot of caveats around it.
Whereas most of the other things mentioned (apart from religion) are outside a person's control, political affiliation is not, nor (as far as I am concerned) does it form a core part of someone's identity the way sex or ethnicity does.
I do not believe political affiliation should be enumerated as one of the protected attributes as IMO that would be open to abuse. However, the CoC should make it clear that even if you disagree with someone's politics, you should do so respectfully and without veering off-topic.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 17:02 UTC (Tue)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
I think it already does make that clear, multiple times, such as:
> we as contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone
> Examples of behavior that contributes to creating a positive environment include: ... Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences
> Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: ... Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
As long as your political beliefs don't involve harassing other people, you should be protected by the CoC as much as anyone else.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:58 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Yes, agreed. I think the CoC is fine as it is.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 2:35 UTC (Wed)
by ecree (guest, #95790)
[Link] (4 responses)
Gender expression (not identity, but expression) is within a person's control. That part of sexual orientation which has observable correlates outside of the subject's head (i.e. acts) is within a person's control. Now of course you can argue that it is repressive to require someone to conceal their gender identity or sexual orientation (and I wouldn't even disagree with you); but the same arguments apply to requiring someone to conceal their political beliefs.
My political philosophy (which is largely coextensive with my moral philosophy) does form a core part of my identity. (The same is not true, for me at least, of party affiliation.) To the extent that a consciousness is just a running instance of an optimisation algorithm, _I am my values_, and I would still be the same person if a swarm of surgical nanobots changed my sex or ethnicity down to the genetic level, as long as those values and the memories of past experiences that helped generate them were left intact.
And the policing of speech on grounds of 'diversity' has, for many years and across a range far broader than our little world of software development, been a favoured weapon of a political philosophy that is irreconcilably opposed to mine. Everyone knows this, but not everyone is admitting it.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 13:53 UTC (Wed)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (3 responses)
Gender expression and sexuality are within a person's control if that person is willing to suffer actual harm by suppressing or denying them.
I don't think it causes anyone any harm to leave their politics at the door in a technical forum, nor do I think political beliefs should be protected. As an example, I was born in South Africa during the era of Apartheid. Apartheid was a political system and support for Apartheid was a political belief. I don't believe anyone would support protecting that system and belief within a code of conduct.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 13:55 UTC (Wed)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (2 responses)
Oh, and also, I don't think anyone is advocating restricting speech on the grounds of "diversity". I think people are advocating restricting speech to create a polite, congenial community. While it would absolutely be wrong of a state to impose such a restriction, it's perfectly fine for a private community to do so.
Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:27 UTC (Fri)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (1 responses)
Respectfully, it is disappointing to see such a naive statement.
Is a community polite and congenial if it is accompanied by a bureaucracy to enforce said politeness, imposed against the will of community members?
Of course, how could anyone object to rules saying that people should be *nice*? Anyone who would object to that must be "a moral monster." You're not a monster, are you?
Posted Sep 22, 2018 9:11 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 23, 2018 2:37 UTC (Sun)
by tao (subscriber, #17563)
[Link] (1 responses)
1. You believe would fall afoul of the new CoC
Also, since you bring up political views, can you also bring up an example of a post by you that fulfills the following criteria:
1. Was political in nature
or, alternatively, a post by someone else that was:
1. Aimed at you, for your political views
Posted Sep 24, 2018 12:37 UTC (Mon)
by phulshof (guest, #127421)
[Link]
Even if such actions are not considered a violation of the CoC, holding such views could still be used to question the integrity of that developer as maintainer or even TAB member. Even the lack of diversity of the TAB could be reason for question the integrity of the TAB. Would you trust a sexual harassment claim to be properly handled by someone who's been accused of being a rape apologist? Would you trust a gender complaint by a non-binary to be properly handled by someone who holds a binary view on gender? Would you trust your complaint on gender discrimination to be handled properly by a TAB consisting of only men?
Of course it will depend heavily on how the TAB will handle these complaints, but I think a lot of people underestimate the outside (including corporate) pressure that can be put on the TAB to use a certain interpretation of the CoC in these matters. I absolutely expect heavy pressure to make the TAB more diverse, and to strike a number of its current members.
Again: I think we could have avoided much of this controversy by adopting a less politically charged CoC. Could you provide me with some valid reasons as to why the KDE or Ruby CoC would have been insufficient to solve the issues at hand?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 6:10 UTC (Mon)
by JdGordy (subscriber, #70103)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 6:16 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 22:34 UTC (Mon)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (1 responses)
Daniel Vetter has spoken (most recently at LCA 2018) about toxic behavior amongst kernel maintainers, and of course cops a bunch of shit for daring to do so.
Sage Sharp has been denigrated and demonized by people who have never contributed a fraction of the code to Linux (you can thank her for us having reliable USB 3 before other free OSes) that she has for daring to talk back to Linus about his behavior.
Back in the day, of course, Alan Cox quit Linux development for a number of years because he got sick of Linus' shitty behavior.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:15 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link]
She's done a lot of work on diversity in computing, and would undoubtedly be sensitive to these very issues. Sometimes an earnest plea from someone you love is what it takes to break down your resistance to self-reflection and the work necessary for personal growth.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 15:44 UTC (Mon)
by lorddoskias (subscriber, #95746)
[Link] (36 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:52 UTC (Mon)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:32 UTC (Mon)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link] (9 responses)
So you think that people who are not willing, or indeed able, to withstand Linus' (and some others') vitriolic comments should stay out of the kernel business?
Would driving these people away improve the kernel in any way? No? Then why do you advocate that we continue to do that?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:48 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Hint: people do have motivations other than the maintenance of power, and flows of money are not the explanation for everything. (Linus is... probably not particularly motivated by money, and if he was motivated by power the kernel project would have been run in a very different way to the way it has been.)
Having to conform to simple rules of civility (much less extreme than the rules which obtain in almost any workplace that is not hell to work in) is not oppression. It is not even that difficult.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:23 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (2 responses)
It's funny you should say that, because Ehmke's Twitter begins by saying, "I am powerful," then celebrates the victory of having the Contributor Covenant merged into Linux, and repeatedly asks people to donate money.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:57 UTC (Mon)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:46 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:19 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (4 responses)
Open-source software is a value system. It's perfectly reasonable to consider whether a commitment to inclusivity and social justice are inescapable corollaries of that value system, and to act accordingly if it turns out that they are.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:47 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
No, it's software.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 8:15 UTC (Tue)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (2 responses)
* because they care for the software
So, definitely not a value system.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 11:44 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Sure, there are lots of hangers-on (pew fodder as I call them), but at its core Free Software is driven by RMS and the GPL.
(And Linux is a hanger on, because Linus chose the GPL for its practicality, not because he necessarily agreed with all the baggage that came with it.)
Cheers,
Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:20 UTC (Fri)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 16:58 UTC (Mon)
by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link]
With a bit of luck Linus will quickly recognise what this nonsense is all about, have a wholesome period of rest, find himself another employer that is driven by quality instead of golfing, and come back refreshed without going "soft on idiocy".
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:06 UTC (Mon)
by jerojasro (guest, #98169)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:18 UTC (Mon)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (17 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:56 UTC (Mon)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:54 UTC (Tue)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 2:54 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:55 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 13:59 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:36 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (2 responses)
1. I would hope that you would not argue that Linus Torvalds, of all people, has not been targeted, directly and indirectly, over the decades he's run Linux. Do you deny that powerful entities attempt to influence kernel development?
2. To say that these are not in evidence is...not in evidence. For example, I recall an incident in which Linus, asked if he had ever been approached by government agencies to insert a backdoor into the kernel, carefully said, "Noooo," while vigorously nodding his head in the affirmative. Then there's the whole Snowden/NSA/etc. stuff. If you think that's not evidence, it would make me wonder which side you're on.
> and being very clumsy at it, to boot.
Oh, my, how will I ever live this down!
The interesting question here is, what are you arguing with me for? Why are you attacking me? I didn't come here attacking LWN.net user "nix", but here you are doing that to me. Why are you so offended that I don't agree with you? Can't you tolerate me? You've shown your true colors today.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:50 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
And as for why: you are persistently arguing in clear bad faith against the CoC, which is something which I have been wishing for for years because frankly participating in kernel development while it is a cesspit of intermittent flames is so terrifying that I've been getting my co-workers to post patches rather than doing so myself. This is true even though nobody has ever flamed me there: my emotional response to even mild criticism of patches there is as if it were a major attack, so I retreat and get other people to resubmit the patches instead, while recognizing this as irrational. Merely seeing actual personal attacks happen to other people is evidence enough that this is not a place for anyone who can't laugh off attacks: if it happened to me I'd probably have weeks of panic attacks. The CoC may change that, and make it somewhere I dare post more than bald bug reports, tamping down my 'the world is ending' response to even mild criticism on l-k in particular. You are trying to ensure that people like me can never participate in kernel development, because you think that your freedom is more important than those of people like me. What possible reason could I have for disliking that?
Posted Sep 18, 2018 21:30 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
Now, see here, nix. You've accused me at least three times now of arguing in bad faith. But here you are changing my argument from "Linus has likely been pressured" to "Linus has been successfully coerced." Moving the goalposts and strawmanning me is definitely not an act of good faith.
> I note that you don't name any of these 'powerful entities', and since you'd have to be a flaming conspiracy theorist to imagine that they'd put you in jeopardy for naming them on LWN I must conclude that they do not in fact exist. Fact not in evidence.
That's bizarre. I specifically mentioned examples, "Snowden/NSA/etc" (the NSA being widely considered to have attempted to exert influence on the kernel, weaken algorithms, etc), and you say that I haven't named anything. Then you say that if I personally haven't named entities, entities don't exist. I can't take you seriously like this.
> It is probably going too far to consider this an act of wilful misinterpretation and thus yet more evidence of bad-faith argumentation on your part, but it's taking me some effort to do so.
Humour is a cheap form of plausible deniability, just as the other side uses Hanlon's Razor. It's almost amusing, at this point, for you to claim that powerful entities have *not* tried to influence the kernel. I don't understand your motivation here.
> So... you don't want a code of conduct so that you can be as rude as you like
This is a really nasty attack. I don't agree with the CoC added to the kernel or how it was merged, therefore I want to be rude as I can to everyone? That is truly arguing in bad faith, nix. I really wish you would practice what you preach.
> but you want me to treat you as if one was in force? One rule for us, another rule for you, it seems.
I don't particularly care how you treat me on here; this is the Internet. Out of respect and appreciation for LWN and Jon, I try to be very gentle with my words and avoid personal attacks and accusations here (and I wish you would do the same). I just want to highlight your extreme hypocrisy. You keep accusing me of arguing in bad faith, yet at the same time you are seriously violating that maxim.
> And as for why: you are persistently arguing in clear bad faith against the CoC, which is something which I have been wishing for for years because frankly participating in kernel development while it is a cesspit of intermittent flames is so terrifying that I've been getting my co-workers to post patches rather than doing so myself. This is true even though nobody has ever flamed me there: my emotional response to even mild criticism of patches there is as if it were a major attack, so I retreat and get other people to resubmit the patches instead, while recognizing this as irrational. Merely seeing actual personal attacks happen to other people is evidence enough that this is not a place for anyone who can't laugh off attacks: if it happened to me I'd probably have weeks of panic attacks. The CoC may change that, and make it somewhere I dare post more than bald bug reports, tamping down my 'the world is ending' response to even mild criticism on l-k in particular. You are trying to ensure that people like me can never participate in kernel development, because you think that your freedom is more important than those of people like me. What possible reason could I have for disliking that?
Thanks for sharing that, it helps me understand where you're coming from. Now I understand why you are feeling so strongly about this. But I have to highlight this:
> You are trying to ensure that people like me can never participate in kernel development
I am trying to do no such thing, and that accusation is quite intellectually dishonest of you. I respectfully suggest that your emotions are getting the better of you, and you are ascribing to me intentions that are, as you would say, not in evidence.
> because you think that your freedom is more important than those of people like me.
And this is the crux of the issue: you think that you are not free to participate unless others' freedoms are restricted. This is simply untrue. You freely choose not to participate. You think that your sensitivities are more important than others' freedoms. You think you are justified in controlling and expelling others so you can feel comfortable. Others do not feel comfortable with what you want, and they feel threatened by your words and attitudes, but you don't care about their feelings. Allow me to quote you:
> One rule for us, another rule for you, it seems.
This is a cultural impasse. The power struggle will continue until one side has had enough. I implore you to study human history, especially the past 100 years, and see the big picture. The people pushing these kinds of changes, especially in these ways, are pushing us down a dark path. And unlike in past ages, the pace of change is very rapid, and the scope is global. We are all paying the price.
You may have the last word. I wish you well.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:25 UTC (Tue)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 21:01 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 20, 2018 14:15 UTC (Thu)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (4 responses)
Living in a post-2016 world has dramatically increased my abhorrence of partisanship. It has had an ill effect on conversation and argument, which now often resembles rugby more than reasonable discourse.
Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:17 UTC (Fri)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
Nevertheless, we would be foolish not to recognize the entities at work and the lines that have been drawn. In order to defeat evil, we must recognize it and who is advancing it. And. at least to a certain extent, we need to unite with those who are against evil, because the side behind evil is certainly united.
Posted Sep 22, 2018 9:09 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
I go by Vetinari's dictum: "there are always, and only, the bad people, but *some of them are on opposite sides*." (Another way of putting it: with extreme enough incentives almost anyone will turn out bad. Some people will do so with almost no incentives whatsoever. The problem for society is finding those people before they do too much harm.)
Posted Sep 22, 2018 10:33 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Much as I love TP (RIP :-(, I don't remember that particular line ...
Cheers,
Posted Sep 23, 2018 18:27 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 19, 2018 20:54 UTC (Wed)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 20, 2018 14:17 UTC (Thu)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link]
I am not, however, speaking from experience.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:37 UTC (Tue)
by nivedita76 (subscriber, #121790)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:49 UTC (Tue)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (3 responses)
Translation: "Don't burden me with facts; I don't want to have to reconsider my assumptions or worldview."
Posted Sep 18, 2018 5:59 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 11:35 UTC (Wed)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 20:34 UTC (Wed)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link]
What are we here to discuss, niner? Whether "lorddoskias (subscriber, #95746)" is open-minded? Or Linus's taking a break and merging a CoC into Linux?
If the latter, then why did kmweber make that comment, and why did you make this one? What is your motivation here?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:03 UTC (Mon)
by yuuyuu (guest, #127230)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:43 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (8 responses)
We're not robots; we're human beings with the capacity to make judgment calls in non-cut-and-dried situations.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:33 UTC (Mon)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (7 responses)
Let's go ahead and replace all rules with "Don't be evil". We just need a consensus, right? Or if you don't have time for all that deciding, you could just let me be the judge; I'm up for that. I'm human, so I should qualify.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 23:44 UTC (Mon)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (6 responses)
Well, I noticed.
The issue with Google isn't vagueness, it's that they weren't committed.
Even something as specific as "You are not allowed to use the word 'gay' as a term of derision" is meaningless if it's not actually taken seriously.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 6:05 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:01 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 15:29 UTC (Tue)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (3 responses)
Allow me to quote yourself:
> That was *snark*, not gloating. Learn to recognise humour.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:51 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 19:00 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 12:54 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 18:16 UTC (Mon)
by rav (guest, #89256)
[Link] (1 responses)
* In "It's one thing when you can ignore these issues. Usually it’s just something I didn't want to deal with.", the first and last apostrophes are ASCII, whereas the middle one is "smart";
* In "I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.", there's another "smart" apostrophe;
* In "I know when I really look “myself in the mirror” it will be clear it's not the only change that has to happen, but hey... You can send me suggestions in email.", there's two "smart" quotes and a single ASCII apostrophe.
Did Linus compose parts of this letter in LibreOffice/Google Docs/Microsoft Office and then write the rest in a text editor?
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:28 UTC (Mon)
by bentley (subscriber, #93468)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2018 19:18 UTC (Mon)
by rweikusat2 (subscriber, #117920)
[Link]
IMO, accusing other people of breaking the law is of a different quality than quoting semi-lame Monty Python jokes, especially when considering that this accusation had absolutely no basis in fact and even the most superficial research had confirmed this. It was solely based on what this person believed I certainly must be, IOW, on him projecting whatever he happend to despise most onto me on the grounds that I was evidently different from him.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 20:26 UTC (Mon)
by joib (subscriber, #8541)
[Link] (22 responses)
Look, culture changes. Say, 60 years ago being a flaming homophobic racist was both common and acceptable. Not so anymore.
Similarly, 30 years ago calling somebody whose code you disagree with a moron who ought to kill himself might have been (borderline) acceptable in a white western male hacker community. In 2018, not so much.
No "commie SJW" conspiracy needed.
You can have arbitrarily strict standards about code quality without being a bully about it.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:04 UTC (Mon)
by rweikusat2 (subscriber, #117920)
[Link] (21 responses)
Other people are *far worse* in this respect as they don't just restrict themselves to odd jokes and excessive hyberbole.
Posted Sep 17, 2018 21:36 UTC (Mon)
by jerojasro (guest, #98169)
[Link]
Insulting people instead of/in addition to pointing the errors in their arguments/code/etc., in a technical forum, is not "a pretty unique communication style". You can disagree with someone's work without insulting them, and Linus finally recognizes he has some work to do in that area.
> Other people are *far worse* in this respect as they don't just restrict themselves to odd jokes and excessive hyberbole.
Bad examples should serve to steer away from them, not to serve as excuses for slightly-less-worse behaviours.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 0:05 UTC (Tue)
by himi (subscriber, #340)
[Link] (19 responses)
Changing his behaviour, and in particular doing it in such a public and apparently genuine way (none of the bullshit "sorry if I've offended anyone" non-apologies you see so often), will hopefully now signal to those people you're talking about that they /can't/ get away with that kind of thing any more.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 1:34 UTC (Tue)
by fest3er (guest, #60379)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 6:18 UTC (Tue)
by dtlin (subscriber, #36537)
[Link]
I can see how some people could consider it unfair that their behavior should be regulated by their visibility, which is not something they necessarily have control over, especially in the age of the Internet. However, that's part of the cost of participating in a society.
Not to excuse incivility in private either, but the effects are different. Or so I believe.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 11:30 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Sep 18, 2018 12:52 UTC (Tue)
by mfuzzey (subscriber, #57966)
[Link] (10 responses)
If it had *just* been Linus saying "Sorry I've been rude in the past and it was counter productive, I'll be making an effort to do better in the future, please talk to me if I fail" that would have been fine and would most likely make the kernel community a better place.
But that doesn't need a code of conduct, just Linus changing style a bit and it trickling down a little.
And it certainly doesn't need a code of conduct written by someone who is "anti meritocracy".
I'd never even heard of the Contributor Covenant or its author before this story (we have much less of all this in Europe it seems) but reading some of her stuff, particularly the "post meritocracy" is scary.
I think we definitely *do* want the kernel (and much other free software) to be a meritocracy. That *doesn't* mean insults should be the norm or are in any way "good" but we shouldn't IMHO value being nice and pleasing people over making good software.
But agreed that bringing politics and conspiracy theories into it doesn't help either.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 14:41 UTC (Tue)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
I expect "public discussion" would just involve endless bikeshedding by well-intentioned supporters of the idea arguing over the subtle implications of every word in the document, in parallel with the flamewar between them and people who fundamentally oppose the idea of behaving nicely, plus the trolling from people who don't care but think it's funny to wind people up, and the discussion would be entirely unenlightening.
By having a group of community leaders make the decision through private discussions, and choosing a widely-adopted document that has already been extensively reviewed and revised in other communities, we avoid all the bikeshedding and are left with only the flamewars and trolling, which is an improvement.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:08 UTC (Tue)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link]
From: https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/ecn-sane/wiki/rules/
In part, it says: "We don’t see too many logical fallacies from this crowd. What we see more often is that we sometimes lack the data to draw certain conclusions, because we don’t always have the time and resources to collect it. So we use our intuition when we have to (and there are some pretty darn good ones in this group), but we do have to be careful about what final conclusions we draw. Assertions and hypotheses for sake of discussion starters should be fine, and we shouldn’t be afraid to be wrong with those, lest we freeze before saying or trying anything. We will try to avoid Argumentum ad baculum, Proof by intimidation, Thought terminating cliche’s, Single cause fallacies, Regression fallacies, Proof by repeated Assertion, and Argument from authority"
I think many forums would benefit from attempting to avoid these argumentative traps.
I'll probably have to revise it as it goes along.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 17:49 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
Who cares who wrote it? Does it have immaterial bad people cooties that follow it around if you dislike the person who wrote it? Surely the *content* is the thing to be concerned about? At most the identity of the author may be relevant in determining rationale-of-author, and in this case it seems very unlikely that anyone will care: what matters is how the *people who it applies to*, i.e. in this case the kernel development community, interpret it.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:33 UTC (Tue)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (3 responses)
I'm still - decades later - feeling burnt by what happened to ICANN.
However I would rather like a detailed explanation, analysis and discussion of the postmeritocracy manifesto by the same author (on another forum or another lwn article entirely. please.) I can certainly see that there is serious grounds for upset and debate there, and I suspect many here are reacting to that, rather than the covenant itself.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 18:57 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 21, 2018 21:09 UTC (Fri)
by anotheruser (guest, #127270)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 22, 2018 9:08 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 20:59 UTC (Tue)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (2 responses)
This isn't what Ms. Ehmke means by "post-meritocracy," though.
Literally no one is objecting to the *principle* that subpar contributions should be (politely) rejected (perhaps with some accompanying constructive criticism if you have the time, though obviously you're not being paid to be their teacher so if you'd rather not be one then a simple "Sorry, but I'm afraid this falls short of our standards in X way" suffices), that the people who know the most should be the ones we listen to when making decisions, etc. This strawman gets raised all the time as an excuse to avoid addressing the actual issue, probably because addressing the actual issue makes them uncomfortable and so they'd rather not since they're not personally affected by it; but it's not what anyone's actually arguing against.
What Ms. Ehmke (and many many others, not just here but in a wide array of domains, fields, and disciplines) are objecting to is the way that the concept of "meritocracy" has been deployed *in practice* as a weapon to silence contributions (even *excellent* contributions) from members of marginalized out-groups. In effect, what ends up happening is that the rhetoric of meritocracy is transformed into a thought-terminating cliche, as an excuse to avoid the sort of introspection and self-reflection that would lead members of a given community to realize that in reality they're actually acting as anything *but.*
I don't know where you're located, but here in the US about 15 years ago a lot of the rhetoric used to justify the security state, imperialist military adventures, etc. of the Bush administration was that we were "defending freedom." Of course, if you think about it a bit you realize that pissing off people in other countries for no reason other than that they happened to have the same religion as a handful of murderous jackasses and/or come from the same fuzzily-defined part of the world only pisses them off and makes it more likely that they'll resent us, increasingly intrusive surveillance is actually kind of oppressive, etc. But because "defending freedom" is such a powerful idea (Who could be against that? Especially in the good ol' US of A, undoubtedly the freest country in the world, right?), and because that rhetoric was deployed with such force, it was enough for literally millions of people to turn off their brains at that point and go right along with it.
This is, in effect, what many observe occurring in communities that claim to value "meritocracy": the language of "meritocracy" becomes so forceful, and consequently that the actions they are taking are in line with that idea, that people in these communities are resistant to examining whether or not their actions are actually counterproductive to that end. The argument, essentially, is that "high standards for contributions" gets conflated with "being rude and unwelcoming to outsiders," such that outsiders who may not be able to meet those standards *immediately* but with practice and revision can get there, will have to wade through numerous cycles of insult and abuse as they improve their contributions to the point where they're acceptable. As the success of Linux shows, lots of people have been willing to do this. But lots of people haven't, and who's to say what they would be able to offer with practice wouldn't be as good as or even better than what we have now? There's literally no harm in trying to be more welcoming to them, since "accept subpar contributions" is in no way a corollary to "be nicer and more constructive in how you inform people that their contributions are subpar," while there's potentially everything to be gained; but people are often resistant to change their ways so they use "meritocracy" to defend and avoid reflecting on behavior that at the absolute best has zero effect on quality (in the highly unlikely case that literally no one who is disinclined to participate would have ever been able to offer an improvement with encouragement) and at worst (much more likely) has the opposite effect.
The reason this gets closely connected to inclusivity of marginalized groups is that, quite frankly, members of marginalized groups are less likely to be willing to put up with this sort of abuse as they iteratively develop their skills and knowledge of the ins-and-outs of a project to be able to make meaningful contributions. Not because they're any less resilient or more sensitive than anyone else, but because they have to put up with so much more of it than everyone else in their everyday life in situations that for all practical purposes they can't avoid, so why in the world would they ever want to put up with even more of this shit in a volunteer, hobby setting? So *in addition* to having a negative effect on the quality of the final product, abusive behavior has a *disproportionate effect* in terms of the extent to which members of marginalized communities feel welcome. This is, of course, compounded in instances where there are direct (conscious or otherwise) attacks on aspects of an individual's identity (e.g. when their name reveals their gender or ethnicity, or those or other aspects such as sexuality, etc. are known for other reasons).
So this is a lot longer than I intended; I'll make one more point and then I'll wrap up, regarding the language of "post-meritocracy." "Post" here does not mean "anti" or "not." Rather, it's better understood in light of terms like "post-modernity" or "post-structuralist." The structuralists (in, say, the study of literature) argued that you could find structural parallels among lots of seemingly distinct works of literature, that you could explain literature in terms of the relationship between its characters, setting, and other elements of the story, etc. Post-structuralists don't reject that; rather, they question the assumption underlying a lot of the early structuralists that there was a single, objectively correct structural representation of a work and it was the task of the interpreter to figure it out. Instead, post-structuralists would argue that there are almost always a host of valid structural interpretations (and also a lot of bullshit ones that rely on ignoring parts of the story that conflict with it, making shit up, not thinking things through, etc.), and are additionally interested in what might cause a particular interpreter to emphasize one particular structural interpretation over another as well as how and why the implications of those multiple structural analyses differ from one another. So the term "post-meritocratic" operates loosely along these lines: it's not about rejecting meritocracy, but rather about critically examining how the concept and rhetoric of "meritocracy" is actually employed in practice.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 3:28 UTC (Wed)
by kmweber (guest, #114635)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 15:32 UTC (Wed)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link]
Certainly no-one can disagree with removing barriers to entry - into any field - for disadvantaged groups. Me, I tend to focus on getting academics to upstream their code, not just the paper, and on trying to get people of all nations to set aside politics and collaborate on keeping spaceship earth from imploding. Does a code of conduct help on the latter? Probably. Does the GPL help here? yes. Does this post-meritcratic thing help? Well, I appreciate your explanation and plan to poke into it further when I get time. I appreciate your clear distinction between "anti" and "post", in particular.
If I could find some way to get 1000 more people working on improving linux wifi so we all don't end up with having to use 5G spectrum rented back to us I'd be a happier guy. The barrier to *start* making a dent in the wifi problem is low - all you need is two boxes with a wifi chip. The barriers to *progress* are huge - there's 9000 pages of specification, a lot of closed source code, enormous complexities in integrating with the stack, a deep knowledge of how tcp and networks actually work is required, some knowledge of crypto also, good C, device driver knowledge, and so on.
Posted Sep 18, 2018 20:49 UTC (Tue)
by abacus (guest, #49001)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 19, 2018 17:44 UTC (Wed)
by Jandar (subscriber, #85683)
[Link] (3 responses)
> The thing is, BUG() is not debuggable.
Even with context this is still rude, but the way I read it, it is aimed at the reason Cook has state for including something not at Cook himself.
Posted Sep 19, 2018 18:29 UTC (Wed)
by mtaht (subscriber, #11087)
[Link] (2 responses)
This attempt at being funny in the context of rejecting a bug() call falls flat in the face of expansion of network culture beyond the original age and culture group that grew up on USENET. In that context perhaps, in light of the CoC - it would be good for more to review the old netequitte rules that arose during that era,
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html
and for those new to the field, a lifetime supply of the hackers dictionary be placed near all the bathroom stalls in the EE and CS departments, would help much in furthering good comms with us old farts, as well as supply an essential lightness oft missing from some conversations.
Posted Sep 20, 2018 5:41 UTC (Thu)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 20, 2018 14:38 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 18, 2018 16:55 UTC (Tue)
by Tara_Li (guest, #26706)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 24, 2018 5:16 UTC (Mon)
by jae (guest, #2369)
[Link] (2 responses)
Now, I could be proven wrong, but I doubt it. In case he *does* come back (in the same "BDFL"-like position), would you please remind me so I can print this out and eat it?
Posted Sep 24, 2018 5:47 UTC (Mon)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
As far as we can tell he is taking time out. That has happened before, without detrimental results.
In any case, Linus can't be “forced out” because in a certain sense he is the project – whatever Linus publishes is the official Linux, both because people trust him to do the Right Thing and because he personally (not the Linux Foundation) owns the “Linux” trademark so nobody else gets to call their software “Linux”. The Linux Foundation could fire him but then they would have to rename themselves and their flagship product, which would obviously be a very bad PR move, and it would be likely that many important developers would follow Linus and continue contributing to “his” code base, not just because of their trust in him personally but because a “hostile takeover” without Linus's consent would be widely resented in the community.
Posted Oct 23, 2018 0:24 UTC (Tue)
by andyc (subscriber, #1130)
[Link]
So how'd that taste!?
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
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No fixing required Linus.
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There are many ways I could respond but will simply say; on what topic did he ever address was he wrong? None that I can think of atm. In those instances he did change his mind about what patch, blah, blah did make it into the kernel and included them, he did. Unlike you "and" the others my sensibilities are much stronger than to be "offended" by the messengers speak. I do not care for ear candy.
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
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It boils down to this; more SJW-ism.
Mom, Linus is saying mean things to me!
Grow up.
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
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In other forums, you can already find a lot of posts along the lines "now that Linux is doomed, what are the alternatives", "The SJWs have won, Linux is lost", "Wo has coerced Linus into this?", "It must have been his SJW feminist daughter", "Now every crap will make it into the kernel and sooner or later someone will die due to this", "Linux will turn into an art-project for self-fulfilment", "The age of post-meritocratism has begun", ...
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
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> the kernel will suffer.
Not just any Code of Conduct
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Well, in your universe a mild CoC which basically boils down to: "Be polite to others and keep your political/religions/... opinions to yourself in project-related forums" is just like Marxism.
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The only context that came to mind where that tweet might be seen as having been gloating was if Linus had also been an outspoken teetotaler.
I never much respected him. I respected some of his work, but never cared for his personality or politics.
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By "him" above, I mean esr. It may not be obvious because of the intervening comments.
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Wol
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> In practice, the theoretical loss of efficiency due to duplication of work by debuggers almost never seems to be an issue in the Linux world.
Does anyone still believe this?
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Wol
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Wol
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Wol
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If that is a joke on your part, it's a very bad joke, and rather badly executed.
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There's some issue with the archive.is nameserver responses to cloudflare requests https://community.cloudflare.com/t/archive-is-error-1001/...
Not just any Code of Conduct
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Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Wol
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
> even though this may require slower thought and still result in miscommunication sometimes.
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Wol
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Kernel prepatch 4.19-rc4; Linus taking a break
Linus did not support the initiative to introduce a Kernel Code of Conflict policy (see also The kernel's code of conflict). Maybe it is a good time to reopen that discussion and to establish a code of conduct instead of a code of conflict?
Kernel Code of Conflict
Kernel Code of Conflict
Kernel Code of Conflict
Expectations
----------------
====
The new Code of Conduct
> contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and
> our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body
> size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and
> expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality,
> personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.
Which, given the history of the people who push this sort of thing, seems very significant. This CoC declares protections for uneducated people, fat people, ugly people... but they'll happily harass right-wing people.
The new Code of Conduct
Can you point out there it does this?
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Wol
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Then why do you have any problems with us SJWs? Have you committed some crime that you're afraid will come out?
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You mean: "The right of individual to keep slaves"? Yep.
So you've just confirmed that you're a Nazi. Because clearly only Nazi would deny that. See? The logic is impeccable.
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Rather, it's talking about how intelligence _statistically_ correlates with some genetic indicia
The results of an IQ test are not 'intelligence', and anyone who thinks that intelligence correlates with genetics knows nothing about human genetics. --- I mean obviously it does when you look at the animal kingdom as a whole -- humans are more intelligent than tube worms by any metric you care to apply -- but our species has too little genetic variation and experiences far too much gene flow for any such thing to emerge, and has for all of human history.
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I say this because almost everyone who makes this point goes on to say that people with skin colours not their own *obviously* have lower intelligence.
Immune function, sure. Intelligence? Nope.
So this is basically a racist talking point without scientific foundation at present.
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Wol
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IQ will very quickly "revert to the norm". There's a lot of evidence that changes like this may take a couple of generations to occur (poor birth/childhood nutrition usually impacts on your own children), but it happens very very quickly in evolutionary terms.
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Hmm. Based on g, what proportion of programmers do we expect to be women? Or are we using tech industry demographics to measure g.
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It describes people that are supposedly out to destroy "western culture", "tradition" or "freedom of speech" (or personal freedom) and want to establish some "thought-police", to suppress white, heterosexual males and to enforce "politcal correctness" while being part of some conspiracy (backed by the "mainstream media"). Additionally, the people described as SJW are supposed to be overly sensitive, dishonest, manipulative and hypocritical.
One exception was some guy, who published himself playing protest songs against the supposed opression through Systemd on Youtube. That guy was also active on LWN and LKML with some quite bizarre comments involving SJWs and feminism. He apparently believed that this was a compelling argument against Systemd.
The next target now appears to be one of Linus' daughters. In another forum, I already saw her being "blamed" for his insight due to her being "a self-confessed SJW feminist", who obviously must have manipulated this good man (the background - besides her being a woman - is, that in an interview from 2015 she mentioned founding a "Feminism Club" at her college)...
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Most of the things on that list, and the thing you point out that is not on that list (politics of the left/right variety) have nothing to do with kernel development.
Sure some people may be uncomfortable with being told directly "your idea is stupid" or "your code is crap" but others (myself included) prefer that to beating about the bush.
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And what if I can't understand someone _else's_ views on _my_ code unless they express them with a diatribe? Some of my best code/ideas have come out of people telling me I'm wrong.
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> if the reason is stated as "it makes debugging easiler", then I fart in your general direction and call your mother a hamster.
is that the (mock-)insults are directed at the easiler[sic]-debugging argument, not the person, because of the enclosing if-then. It's just a slightly funnier/more colourful way of saying "the argument that this makes debugging easier is not merely wrong but egregiously so".
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> To the best of my knowledge nix isn't a member of the kernel community
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>> I care not one whit about the reason for them. In fact, if the reason
>> is stated as "it makes debugging easiler", then I fart in your general
>> direction and call your mother a hamster.
>That is plain harassment. I ask to *stop* it!
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> Calling it 'harassment' is frankly ridiculous (bordering on therdiglob)
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These people are not, for the most part, arguing in good faith. They cannot be reasoned with.
And your evidence for this brazen denial of common sense is?
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> If I allow my behaviour to be constrained by everyone's self-report of
> hurt feelings, then I am writing a blank cheque on my entire self.
> Thank you, no.
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>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
>>> is stated as "it makes debugging easiler", then I fart in your general
>>> direction and call your mother a hamster.
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2) Do not seek to give offence
3) Do not knowingly give offence
Wol
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And don't get me started with hand gestures, where one and the same thing literally means "Perfectly done" in one culture and "You are an asshole" in another.
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That it may be impossible for them to read things you write without having an emotional reaction?
You've strongly asserted that people should be making affordances for you, while simultaneously appearing to argue that it's unreasonable for you to attempt to make affordances for them
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Even companies with strict employment procedures, experienced HR staff and - compared to an open source project - infinitly more power over their employees, struggle to identify and contain them.
The latter is an insult, plain and simple, and while it is rather lighthearted in some cultures, it is extremely offensive in others. "Other culture" might even apply, if the recipient is technically of the same culture, but of a different age (while "your mom" jokes are literally ancient, they only became a meme in the '90s; even later outside the US).
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So now you need special accommodations? That's SJW stuff right here.
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Now you're heading into the realm of personal attacks, even if those attacks are against a strawman. That doesn't help anybody, and I need to ask you to stop, please.
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We cannot try to respond to every post in a discussion like this, so we do our best to head off the worst when things threaten to go off the rails. That often means addressing the people who are driving the whole thing. You have supplied over 10% of all of the comments on this article, so it seems reasonable to think of you as a driver of what's going on. Combine that with a post that clearly pushes the limits, and that's where I intervened.
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Wol
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We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others.
meritocracy has consistently shown itself to mainly benefit those with privilege
is isomorphic to things Communist fellow-travellers were saying about Capitalism sixty years ago, and just as false-to-fact.The new Code of Conduct
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> contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and
> our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body
> size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and
> expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality,
> personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.
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2. Was to the benefit of the kernel development
3. Couldn't have been expressed in a way that wouldn't have fallen afoul of the new CoC
2. Was on topic for LKML and of benefit for the kernel development
3. That someone else criticised in a way that you think should be outlawed by the new CoC (assuming, of course, that it's not removed as you seem to prefer)
2. Was on topic for LKML
3. That wouldn't have fallen afoul of the CoC without modification
I do not think your second criterium is entirely fair. Many people who do not mind a CoC have expressed valid reasons for disliking this CoC. I seriously doubt we'd be having this conversation if the KDE or Ruby CoC had been adopted in stead.
The three main problems that I see with this CoC are:
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While we could find agreement that certain social and political topics have no place on the kernel development mailinglist or as presentation at a Linux conference, such things are often discussed on social media platforms and during personal discussions at conferences. The question is: could such discussions be considered a violation of the CoC? As an example: there are people who consider a binary view of gender as invalidation of their existence, non-inclusive or even harassment. Could a developer be removed from the community by expressing such views on their social media platform or during a personal discussion at a Linux conference? Could a developer be removed from the community by questioning certain rape statistics? Could a developer be removed from the community by having certain sexual preferences? Could a maintainer be removed from the project by not acting instantly on a complaint?
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* because they care for the people
* because they care for themselves
* because they don't (want to) care at all
* because they are forced to
* for no reason
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Wol
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It's not possible to convince met this "apology" was not done under some form of duress of some corporate entity that is likely pouring money into LF. Also it's no coincidence that the code of conduct was committed a day after Linus' email.
Yeah, I wonder about that too, having a somewhat cynical view of the world. There are at least three possibilities: 1) a change of heart, 2) money, or 3) some other form of coercion. Hopefully it's the first, and especially not the third.
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undoubtedly enduring attempts at technical and social coercion for decades
You are assuming facts not in evidence, and being very clumsy at it, to boot.
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1. I would hope that you would not argue that Linus Torvalds, of all people, has not been targeted, directly and indirectly, over the decades he's run Linux. Do you deny that powerful entities attempt to influence kernel development?
I see no evidence that any 'powerful entities' have been successful at it, except of course for the corporations that employ most Linux developers and direct their efforts, who don't need to 'target' Linus because they're getting everything they might want out of kernel development as it is: they are also very bad at keeping things under wraps, so if they did try to do that sort of thing it would likely leak within about six seconds: no such leak is observed. I note that you don't name any of these 'powerful entities', and since you'd have to be a flaming conspiracy theorist to imagine that they'd put you in jeopardy for naming them on LWN I must conclude that they do not in fact exist. Fact not in evidence.
I recall an incident in which Linus, asked if he had ever been approached by government agencies to insert a backdoor into the kernel, carefully said, "Noooo," while vigorously nodding his head in the affirmative.
We earth-humans call this a joke. It is obviously a joke. Even people on the autistic spectrum recognize it as a joke (well, I do, anyway, and I'm about as autistic as you can be and still participate in development at all). It is probably going too far to consider this an act of wilful misinterpretation and thus yet more evidence of bad-faith argumentation on your part, but it's taking me some effort to do so.
I didn't come here attacking LWN.net user "nix", but here you are doing that to me. Why are you so offended that I don't agree with you? Can't you tolerate me?
So... you don't want a code of conduct so that you can be as rude as you like, but you want me to treat you as if one was in force? One rule for us, another rule for you, it seems.
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How indecent of you! Shame on you, you paranoid conspiracy theorist!
Being skeptical is not indecent, and there's no shame in it. As for advancing conspiracy theories, this is not the case, since there are two necessary ingredients missing: 1) conspirators, and 2) a theory.
Your response is either tongue-in-cheek or silly; I can't really tell.
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Wol
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Ah, I should have known better than to try to slip one past you, you sly dog, you. Of course, everyone shares a common understanding of what "evil" is. If only Google were more passionate, that would do it.
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So this conversation has been far more restrained than some others I've seen out there on the net. That said, we're up to 220 comments, so I can't help but think that it has maybe run its course for now. Could we please stop this back-and-forth here? Thanks.
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Changing his behaviour, and in particular doing it in such a public and apparently genuine way (none of the bullshit "sorry if I've offended anyone" non-apologies you see so often)
Except of course that the people who think insulting people is good (astonishingly, there seem to be many such people) are now conspiracy-theorizing about the shapes of the quote marks in the mail as 'proof' that this was written for him by someone else and forced on him because money/power/evil-members-of-$disfavoured-political-group. Anything to allow them to claim that Linus is 'really' in favour of being rude to everyone, all the time. (Though one gets the impression that these people would mostly focus their rudeness on people different from them.)
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And I think *that* is the big news, not what Linus said now (or has said in the past).
Especially disturbing is that it seems to have been done with no public discussion.
I thought open source was about, you know, openness. Communities should decide for themselves what is acceptable.
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The TAB is elected by a vote of attendees at the Kernel Summit; this year that will happen in Vancouver in November. No changes have been made and, if any are intended, I've not heard about them.
Electing the TAB
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Are you sure that Linus is not the worst? This is worse than any other insult I have seen on any Linux kernel mailing list (source: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFybdHfDhtqSQQT-cRcG2pA_zcE4H7SO059RhC11zcRtrQ@mail.gmail.com/):
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On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:19 PM Alexander Popov <alex.popov@linux.com> wrote:
>
> > > I fart in your general
> > > direction and call your mother a hamster.
>
> That is plain harassment. I ask to *stop* it!
The correct reply is
"Is there someone else up there we can talk to?"
just google for it if you haven't seen the Holy Grail.
(And I got the quote wrong too. I forgot about how your father smelt
of elderberries)
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>
> I absolutely refuse to take any hardening patches at all that have
> BUG() or panic() or similar machine-killing in it.
>
> I care not one whit about the reason for them. In fact, if the reason
> is stated as "it makes debugging easiler", then I fart in your general
> direction and call your mother a hamster.
>
> Dammit, I suspect you guys are "testing" this by running things in a
> VM, and then a BUG() looks like a good thing to do.
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You mean that thing that esr appropriated and heavily edited to inject his own politics? Well.
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