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The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 16, 2018 20:34 UTC (Sun) by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
In reply to: The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com) by Cyberax
Parent article: The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

This is not true. It is disproven by all the material published before copyright existed; by all the money Charles Dickens and other authors made in spite of their copyrighted material being pirated in the US; and by all the blogs published today which no one has any interest in copying.

People write, paint, compose, and otherwise publish all the time without any expectation of remuneration. They always have, they always will.


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The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 16, 2018 21:11 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

> It is disproven by all the material published before copyright existed
Sure. Can you give me at least one AAA computer game published before copyright existed?

Seriously, anti-copyrightists have no freaking idea about how the world works. An AAA game requires tens of thousands of man-years to develop. How can you motivate enough people to work together for that long to develop a game without paying them money? Answer: you can not.

As for "but there were writers before copyright" - right now there is about a thousand times more writers. Lots of them produce stories that are objectively superior to the works of pre-copyright period.

And even your own example with Dickens is stupid. Dickens got well-off by selling his works in England where his copyright was very much in force. The US market was pretty much a non-issue for him. If there were no copyright in England he'd had starved.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 16, 2018 22:15 UTC (Sun) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (4 responses)

There have been some AAA games funded by Kickstarter and other crowd funding platforms recently. I would count Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, and Pillars of Eternity as games of this type.

The two of those that have been released also went on to sell copies in the traditional way. But they could have stopped at the crowd funding level.

None of those could have gone open source though because they rely on game engines which don't have open source licensing.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 2:42 UTC (Mon) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

Narrowly, I say that the jury remains out on Star Citizen in terms of completing it, though your point that the budgeting level is in the AAA level stands.

The other games are more in a mid-sized commercial game budget. I am certainly glad that the trend exists, and think it can produce better games, but I wouldn't file it under "AAA". I'm not really sure that this term is very meaningful though, as it's more relevant in terms of sales strategy than created works.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 7:11 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> Elite Dangerous
$60 - https://www.frontierstore.net/games/elite-dangerous-cat/e...

> Star Citizen
$45 "Pledge"? Not clear: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/squadron42#roadmap

> Pillars of Eternity as games of this type.
$30-$45 - https://store.steampowered.com/app/291650/Pillars_of_Eter...

So thanks for supporting my argument so concisely. You can't develop OpenSource AAA-gaming titles.

And this is just one type of copyright. There are also movies and to lesser extent books.

> None of those could have gone open source though because they rely on game engines which don't have open source licensing.
That's because engine developers also have to eat.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:34 UTC (Mon) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

My point was that it isn't necessary to sell copies under copyright in order to raise the money to pay for the game development. And so, a game could be developed and released under an open source license, in theory. I'm not sure what your point was.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 10:22 UTC (Mon) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link]

> The two of those that have been released also went on to sell copies in the traditional way. But they could have stopped at the crowd funding level.

I don't think that's true. E.g. "Elite: Dangerous creator says crowdfunding covered less than one-quarter of its total cost" - most of the money came from the developers themselves, presumably as an investment they hoped to earn back through sales. (https://www.pcgamer.com/elite-dangerous-crowdfunding-cove...)

Pillars of Eternity made $4M through Kickstarter and seems to have taken about 3 years to develop, which would be enough to pay for maybe a dozen full-time developers. The credits show several times more people than that, so I doubt Kickstarter covered the majority of their costs.

Most large games seem to use crowdfunding mainly for market research and PR, so they can go to a traditional investor and demonstrate there is real interest and get the money they actually need. (Plus it helps the developer push back against investors meddling with their vision, since it was the developer's vision that got the backers excited, and annoying the backers is really bad PR.)

Star Citizen has made over $190M through crowdfunding (beating the (non-marketing) costs of the most expensive games ever made) but its funding model seems quite, um, unique, like how it sells a pack of virtual spaceships (for a game that's nowhere near finished) for $27,000. Players who've already spent thousands would be distraught if the game collapsed, so they'll spend another few hundred to support its continuing development, and then another, and another. That's not something that other games could (or, morally, should) copy.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 16, 2018 22:18 UTC (Sun) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (3 responses)

You needn't get so angry. It won't help your argument any.

Why did Dickens continue making money in the US from speaking tours? I don't mean how did the tours earn money, but why did he do it? He almost certainly could have made more money with European tours without the risks of crossing the Atlantic. It's an interesting question to ponder.

There are many ways a company could publish a game and make money without copyright or DRM or anything else draconian. Why do people pay millions of dollars for genuine Picasso etchings when they could have a modern print for dollars, in better condition? Why did anyone pay Beethoven for compositions which would be almost instantly copied? Why do people pay Red hat for software they can get for free from Centos?

Please stop getting so angry. Try thinking from the viewpoint you detest so much, try to understand how people could make money without copyright. Stretch your imagination a little. If nothing else, it will give you better support for your own beliefs.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 2:40 UTC (Mon) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

I agree with part of your message, but mostly certain types of creative works currently depend upon large incomes paid by people to enjoy them that look difficult or doubtful in a copyright-free environment.

Yes, there are some audiences willing to pay 2-4 millions for a game not yet made. Most of these are nostalgia plays, and it seems like the market is dropping.

For what we expect for a "blockbuster" game these days, the budget is more likely to resemble 20-40 millions. It's hard to imagine a non-gatekept system that could ensure that kind of return. Maybe it's a failure of imagination, or maybe it's completley acceptable that there might not be such games. I don't personally think they're really much better, myself.

Personally I think that for smaller creative works, the enemy is a complete lack of being noticed, rather than people preferring not to pay. And for the largest works, the enemy is often that the process of this much capital pre-allocated often leads to shallower works.

So I think it's not clear that we need this system, but I also don't think it's evil or wrong. I think the choice about "profiteering" vs "sharing" to use slanted terminology is a bit out balance lately, where it's presumed that restricting is generally the better path, when i think it varies. I think a cultural shift where sharing is given greater consideration would be the biggest potential upside. Secondarily copyright that lasted 25 years or similar would probably be a much better balance.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 8:37 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> Why did Dickens continue making money in the US from speaking tours? I don't mean how did the tours earn money, but why did he do it? He almost certainly could have made more money with European tours without the risks of crossing the Atlantic. It's an interesting question to ponder.
I would guess that he wanted to get something out of the US, even if he couldn't get his full fair fee.

> There are many ways a company could publish a game and make money without copyright or DRM or anything else draconian.
Plenty of AAA games have no DRM, yet they are closed source and expensive.

As for "many ways" I don't really know a single one. Raising several tens of millions to develop a game is not easy even when you can sell it later.

Ditto for movies. It's even worse for them.

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:32 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Why did Dickens continue making money in the US from speaking tours? I don't mean how did the tours earn money, but why did he do it? He almost certainly could have made more money with European tours without the risks of crossing the Atlantic. It's an interesting question to ponder.

VICTORIAN MORALITY.

Read up a bit on Dickens. His reputation was helped by his "squeaky clean" image which he couldn't afford to endanger in Britain, but he pretty much walked out on his wife for a younger woman. So when he toured America with his "wife", she was actually his mistress.

(Read up on some British railway disaster, which nearly killed him - I think it was the boat train to Dover or such-like - and especially note his travelling companions. This accident nearly caused a scandal to break which would have ruined him.)

Cherchez la femme, as always ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 17, 2018 17:26 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Seriously, anti-copyrightists have no freaking idea about how the world works. An AAA game requires tens of thousands of man-years to develop. How can you motivate enough people to work together for that long to develop a game without paying them money? Answer: you can not.

> As for "but there were writers before copyright" - right now there is about a thousand times more writers. Lots of them produce stories that are objectively superior to the works of pre-copyright period.

How many pre-copyright writers can the anti-copyright crowd name? Not many. The pre-copyright market was served by scribes and copy-writers, who were paid to copy books by hand, or who copied books and then sold them. Very much a service industry, and very similar to the Open Source market today, actually. And very much a small-scale cottage industry.

The few well-known pre-copyright writers are well known because the printers mined them (like we object to corporates mining the BSD-style commons today) for stuff they could print "for free".

> And even your own example with Dickens is stupid. Dickens got well-off by selling his works in England where his copyright was very much in force. The US market was pretty much a non-issue for him. If there were no copyright in England he'd had starved.

"Copyright" (aka censorship!) was introduced to control the printing presses. Copyright and printing go hand in hand.

By the way, be careful of that comment about starvation. There's a wonderful couple of speeches in Hansard where some copyright-fanatic MP said "if we had copyright 50 years ago, Tennyson's grand-daughter would not have been starving". And the riposte from an anti-copyright MP was "but we DID have copyright. And some publisher was living in luxury on the back of them!".

And later on Dickens (and Gilbert and Sullivan) wised up to the American market and got American copyrights (G&S at least, and given that Dickens regularly toured America I assume he did so too). Dickens here is much like your "not top of the bill musician" - making the bulk (if not all) of their money from touring. All the copyright money went to the marketing people aka the printers (nowadays the music industry).

There's a reason G&S wrote "The Pirates Of Penzance" - its working title was "The Copyright Pirates of New York"!!! (yes - the term "pirate" applied to copyright goes back to the 19th century!!!)

Cheers,
Wol

The (awesome) economics of open source (Opensource.com)

Posted Sep 20, 2018 23:57 UTC (Thu) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link]

I did a quick search and it seems that things were a bit different back in the mid 1800s: https://omf.ucsc.edu/publication/comp-and-pub.html

Dickens seems to have been paid for instalments.


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