Teaching Python to kids
The combination of an "unsuspecting library employee" and a bunch of bored children has created a popular program using the Raspberry Pi and other tools to teach coding to kids. Qumisha Goss is a librarian at the Parkman branch of the Detroit Public Library; she started the "Parkman Coders" program and came to PyCon 2018 in Cleveland, Ohio to tell the assembled Pythonistas all about it. She also had some thoughts on ways to make the Python community a more diverse place, along with some concerns for her students that are much bigger than the diversity topic.
Coding for kids
Goss said that it all started when some other library employees mentioned that teaching coding was becoming popular and that they thought that a program to do that for the children who visit the library would be great. She agreed that it would be nice to have and she applauded them on taking that on. But it turned out that she was taking it on, though she didn't know anything about programming. They assured her: "You're young, you can learn it", she said with a laugh.
![Qumisha Goss [Qumisha Goss]](https://static.lwn.net/images/2018/pycon-goss-sm.jpg)
They started with Tynker.com and other Scratch-based environments. "The kids had a ton of fun". The first class had 26 students when they only expected 20; the next month's class was similar in size. But then they started offering the class during the school year and attendance started to trail off. She asked the students why; their answer was that it was "baby stuff" and they were tired of just moving blocks around on the screen. "They wanted to do something 'real'"—at seven years old, she said to laughter.
So she started looking into the Raspberry Pi, in part because the library administration was concerned that students might learn enough to start attacking the library computers. In "true librarian fashion", Goss read a lot of books; Python for Kids is one of her favorites. In 2015, she went to PyCon in Montreal and to the education summit held there. She got lots of good information along with a suggestion to go to PyOhio. She did that and recommended it: "Go to PyOhio, it's really great". From some of the folks she met at those conferences, she got some micro:bit devices: "I'm really getting into this now", she said with a chuckle.
The library also paid for her to go to the first Picademy in North America, which allowed her to become a certified Raspberry Pi educator. She went through all these steps to get herself to a level where she could get out ahead of these kids and "teach them something that wasn't 'baby stuff'".
Since that time, she and the kids have done all sorts of different projects. Recently, during Teen Tech Week, one of her students created a video game with her own images and set it to music, "which was really cool". Goss laughingly admitted that her project "didn't look anything like that".
Her students have also done a lot with Minecraft: Pi; "I'm sure you've heard this a million times: all kids love Minecraft". They start off by playing Minecraft, but that's just an enticement. After that, she introduces them to IDLE ("don't groan") and lets them program in their Minecraft game. That was exciting, in part because you could make flowing lava and exploding TNT. "I don't know why they never get bored of seeing things explode."
After that, the students started doing robot cars, but the program had expanded so she had students from ages six through seventeen. A hard lesson learned about six-year-olds is that they are not ready to learn about Python. One kid wrote two lines in Minecraft then ran off to roll around in the hallway for the rest of the session, she said. So she started having a "junior project" for the younger kids. For the robot project, the junior version involved building and coloring a paper robot that would have some LEDs added so it would light up. The senior project was building a robot car with a Raspberry Pi.
The next project they will be tackling is greenhouse monitoring. The kids will be writing code to make a time-lapse camera that will record the growth of plants in a mini-greenhouse. In addition, they will write code to record moisture levels in the soil.
Parkman Coders has been going for about three years now. She showed two pictures of participants, one from when it got started and one from last year. One of the achievements she is most proud of is that three of the students are in both pictures; there are, in total, six kids that have been with her since the beginning. One day "they'll be here, or I'll be working for them, or you'll be working for them", she said to a round of applause.
Diversity and beyond
She then turned to a big issue in the technology world: diversity. "How do we get women and minorities? Where is the diversity?" are questions that are being asked by many organizations. "Women and minorities are not unicorns", she said. They are magical, but there is no real mystery about what it takes to sustain them.
There are three basic things that it takes to sustain any great relationship, starting with "respect". It comes down to simply acknowledging that everyone is a human being and respecting everyone on that basis.
"Here's the tricky part", she said: engaging with these other people. That means greeting them, asking a question, and listening to the answer they give you; if they ask you a question, answer it.
The final piece is "value". People are not going to stay with companies or organizations that do not value them. "I don't feel valued if I make less money" than someone else doing the same work, for example. If you can stick with those three things, respect, engage, and value, you can attract and retain people
But diversity problems are just a "middle issue" for her. The big issue she wanted to talk about are those affecting her students. Poverty is a real problem for these kids; they are poor and they know they are poor. It really hurts their progress that their family cannot afford a computer so they can work on Python at home.
Even though she can help them get a Raspberry Pi, many can't afford the things needed to hook up to it—a keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Or, worse yet, they don't have the internet at home. These are real problems that are much bigger to her than the diversity problems. We need to help minorities get to the point where they can even participate in our communities.
Illiteracy is another problem her kids face. She can be teaching someone to program and realize she needs to backtrack to make sure they can read properly. She had a nine-year-old come to her for help the week before her talk; in the process of helping him, she realized he couldn't read. She suggested that he use his last name as part of a username, but he did not know how to spell it. "That was devastating to me." She has already started working with him and enlisted the aid of other librarians in order to help teach him to read. "These are boundaries to them."
Hunger, crime, and violence are all things that these children experience. She has had students ask for snacks to take with them because they had no food at home. She has also been asked if she has ever been to jail; one child's cousin was headed there for burglary and the kid was wondering what jail was like. That is just a normal part of their lives, unfortunately.
The kids face a lack of resources and a lot of adversity, but that leads to them being resourceful and resilient, she said. That in turn leads to innovation, both for good and not-so-good. Detroit is experiencing a revival these days, which leads to lots of "cool hipster things" downtown, such as electric bikes. She learned that kids in the neighborhood were stealing lawnmowers and mounting the engines on bikes to create their own powered bikes. She was amazed that they could get that to work—and that no one has been hurt from what she has heard—though obviously stealing lawnmowers is not what she wants to see.
The library allows using its computers for one hour per day with a library card. One kid noticed that you can apply for library cards online with just a Detroit address. One day she noticed lots of kids playing games on the computer for longer than an hour; she realized that the kid had exploited the system to generate multiple cards that he handed out to his friends so they could play together longer.
These kids need an opportunity, she said. She is teaching them Python because it provides worldwide opportunities; "exposure to Python is exposure to the world". Learning to program is also empowering. The first thing many want to do when they learn to code is break someone else's code because "you are empowered to mess stuff up or to make stuff better". It is important that the kids know that they can do more than simply what someone tells them they can do. "You can use your superpower for good or evil, then we let them test it, but then we encourage them to do good."
At this point, the kids are mostly consumers. They all had a homework assignment to spend a million dollars, but they had to use some of it to go to college. They had to research what it cost for the college of their choice, but after that, the spending all looked the same: a house (usually a mansion), a car or two, a house for their mom, an iPhone, and several new pairs of shoes. She wants these kids to see that their goals should not be to own an iPhone, they should aspire to create a better iPhone. They do not just have to be consumers, they can be the next innovators.
The goal is for greatness, she said; these kids have it in them, but "they just need an opportunity to develop that greatness". She suggested that PyCon attendees not be selfish and to "cultivate greatness in others". She continued: "No one has ever become less great by helping someone else become great". That statement was met with much applause.
She also suggested asking questions if you need help and answering questions if you are asked. In both cases, though, you should listen ("don't hear it, actually listen and take it in") to the other person. Her personal favorite suggestions were to support public libraries ("we're awesome", she said with a laugh). Also, she asked the attendees to support educators and "support people, remember this is about people; what is Python without people?"
Her final suggestion was to "mentor someone". She suggested that person be "someone who doesn't look like you, someone who is from somewhere different than you—go out on a limb and help somebody else". With that, she was done with her talk, which was well-received—attendees gave her a standing ovation, no doubt for her work and her keynote.
A YouTube video of the talk is available.
[I would like to thank LWN's travel sponsor, the Linux Foundation, for
assistance in traveling to Cleveland for PyCon.]
Index entries for this article | |
---|---|
Conference | PyCon/2018 |
Python | Education |
Posted Jun 26, 2018 16:01 UTC (Tue)
by ju3Ceemi (subscriber, #102464)
[Link] (34 responses)
I would love a world far less sexist (aka not giving such concern about sex in irrelevant situation).
Shame on these people.
Posted Jun 26, 2018 16:15 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Jul 5, 2018 7:03 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (32 responses)
Posted Jul 5, 2018 15:37 UTC (Thu)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link] (16 responses)
Evidence that is too copious to fit into the margin of this page, I suppose. And that would be more than what, exactly? Every country has structural social and economic challenges despite what its own made-for-export messaging might indicate. Endemic sexism and discrimination is as real a problem in Scandinavian societies as it is in other places, although I'm sure people can dispute the severity relative to other places on the planet. I am sorry if you never heard about it and didn't realise it was an issue, however. Personally, I found the remarks about poverty rather saddening. There are numerous benefits in bringing people out of poverty for both themselves and for wider society, but since political capital in various societies tends to be made by blaming poverty on the poor so as to legitimise ignoring them (yes, this callousness also infects Scandinavia), it is a topic that gets far less attention than it deserves.
Posted Jul 5, 2018 20:26 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (15 responses)
> Every country has structural social and economic challenges despite what its own made-for-export messaging might indicate. Endemic sexism and discrimination is as real a problem in Scandinavian societies as it is in other places, although I'm sure people can dispute the severity relative to other places on the planet.
> Personally, I found the remarks about poverty rather saddening. There are numerous benefits in bringing people out of poverty for both themselves and for wider society, but since political capital in various societies tends to be made by blaming poverty on the poor so as to legitimise ignoring them (yes, this callousness also infects Scandinavia), it is a topic that gets far less attention than it deserves.
Posted Jul 5, 2018 22:21 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (10 responses)
It quite definitively doesn't prove that there's a causal biological connection between gender and preferences in most of areas.
Posted Jul 5, 2018 23:00 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (9 responses)
There are reasons to think there are biological reasons though. Again, scandinavian countries did more than any other society to eliminate gender discrimination, and the result is that the male/female ratio for engineers _increased_. And if you assume the reasons are biological in nature, that makes perfect sense. The more free people are to make their own choices without society influencing them, the more likely it is that some biological predisposition they might have will be able to manifest itself.
Posted Jul 6, 2018 0:02 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Jul 6, 2018 6:49 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (7 responses)
Oh, and how do you explain that > 70% of e. g. psychology graduates are female? Is that also discrimination?
Posted Jul 6, 2018 7:29 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
If you want more extreme example - look at the number of females in armies. Not long ago it was vanishingly small, yet now it's growing.
> – the differences in male/female job choices get _larger_ in countries with less discrimination
Posted Jul 6, 2018 10:03 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
> And it needs to be explained, it's meaningless in isolation without controls for other factors (like wealth).
Posted Jul 6, 2018 12:53 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (4 responses)
Also you haven't answered my question: why are a majority of psychology graduates female? Is that also the result of discrimination? And why are garbage collectors all male? Discrimination?
Posted Jul 6, 2018 16:02 UTC (Fri)
by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844)
[Link] (3 responses)
Enable JavaScript and have a little play at this simulation, plugging in some different parameters.
it should help to visualise how industries can become (and then remain) segregated, given even a slight predisposition to affiliate with members of your own group. This doesn't only apply to genders---could apply to any situation where you can partition humans into different groups, but the simulation only uses two groups.
To answer your question: let's suppose that industry I has historically been dominated by group G for reasons that were thought to be true in the past, but we "know better" than that nowadays and thus the various barriers for other group O to partake in the industry have recently been removed. Members of group O don't immediately flock to industry I precisely because most of them have a preference to having at least a few other Os in their environment. So a reason that you observe that Os do not enter industry I even when they have an equal opportunity to do so is because there are very few Os in I already. It's not because they have a predisposition against I.
And for an explanation of why it can be disproportionately (quadratically!) uncomfortable to be a member of a minority group, see the Petrie Multiplier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_multiplier
Posted Jul 6, 2018 21:50 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jul 6, 2018 22:42 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Just about 25% of employed psychology professors are female. Even though majority (around 70%) of graduates are female.
Nope, no discrimination whatsoever.
Posted Jul 7, 2018 0:04 UTC (Sat)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
Anyway, I think you've made your position quite clear. You also made it quite clear that you're not prepared to show any real evidence for the discrimination theory, and I'm sorry to say that you didn't leave me with the impression of somebody who will follow the evidence wherever it leads. So I'm done here.
Posted Jul 6, 2018 11:19 UTC (Fri)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link] (3 responses)
Certainly, discrimination in other fields could be driving women into science/technology/engineering in those countries. However, I somehow doubt that they are being excluded from professions you assert are favoured by women, such as nursing, medicine, and so on. So maybe it is the lack of localised discrimination in the professions you assert are favoured by men that actually enables them to pursue those professions, despite wider societal discrimination. Meanwhile, technology in Scandinavia is still presented as a male-oriented, male-focused industry, despite the occasional high-profile female executive. Things like encouraging gender equality at the board level of companies - initiatives you presumably referred to earlier - do practically nothing to influence choices made by children that set up their career paths. It is worth noting that in my time in moderately-large-company consulting the gender balance was closer to normal, but I have also experienced more technology-focused environments that were 100% male. Could it be that women get the impression that technology, as opposed to the broader business-related nature of consulting even in the technological realm, is "not for them"? Probable answer: yes. I am not "expecting" anything other than people having the means to pursue an acceptable range of opportunities in life. UN metrics can be rather divorced from this "expectation" because they might stipulate some general income threshold (somewhat adjusted for local prices, maybe) that fails to respect actual living conditions whilst permitting governments and institutions to conveniently consider poverty issues as having been "solved". How "well" are the children mentioned in the article doing without access to technology that many now take for granted? The US is a wealthy country after all. Although there was apparently a squabble between the US administration and the UN about some wealth inequality report fairly recently. Maybe that has something to do with it. I won't dignify your appeal to consider Venezuela since it happens to be the "go to" strawman to demonise anyone advocating social mobility and a fairer society where they happen to live (which is typically not Venezuela).
Posted Jul 6, 2018 14:38 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
> Meanwhile, technology in Scandinavia is still presented as a male-oriented, male-focused industry, despite the occasional high-profile female executive.
> It is worth noting that in my time in moderately-large-company consulting the gender balance was closer to normal, but I have also experienced more technology-focused environments that were 100% male. Could it be that women get the impression that technology, as opposed to the broader business-related nature of consulting even in the technological realm, is "not for them"?
> I am not "expecting" anything other than people having the means to pursue an acceptable range of opportunities in life.
> UN metrics can be rather divorced from this "expectation" because they might stipulate some general income threshold (somewhat adjusted for local prices, maybe) that fails to respect actual living conditions whilst permitting governments and institutions to conveniently consider poverty issues as having been "solved".
Posted Jul 6, 2018 17:43 UTC (Fri)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link] (1 responses)
I'm sorry, but I don't need to pander to your every demand. It was you who started off berating others for not providing evidence whilst not providing any of your own. I was merely providing a plausible explanation for a phenomenon, one that is considerably less lazy than "women don't really want to work with technology" which is basically what you are claiming. Since I live in a Scandinavian country, read/watch the media coverage, go about my daily life talking to real people and experiencing real things, maybe I have something to say about your cherry-picking of employment statistics (with no source, though). Maybe the unavoidable coverage of discrimination and harassment has something to say about it, too. Do you have any personal familiarity with any of the Scandinavian societies? Or are they merely good for the mining of third-hand demographic data and vague impressions of equality and "socialism"? Your assertion is actually offensive, but I am assuming that this is the intended effect. LWN really doesn't get any better for this kind of thing. In 2018, in the world's largest economy (depending on how you measure it, of course), you have children not getting enough to eat, not getting adequate education, and not having access to essential facilities and services that would enable them to live decent lives. And the best you can say is "we're getting there"? It sounds like "wait your turn" to me, where "your turn" always seems to take a lower priority to tax cuts for the wealthy, colossal military spending, and a parade of other big-ticket items. And this does not even touch on places on this planet that are paralysed by seemingly perpetual war, famine, disease, and all manner of misfortune, some of it caused by neglect, some of it by human malevolence. "We've never had it so good" is too easy a thing to say if you actually do have it rather good. But I suppose you're now going to deny the presenter and those children their experiences because it doesn't fit some broad-brush world-view you're selling. Those UN reports will tell them what is real, for sure!
Posted Jul 6, 2018 18:53 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
> I was merely providing a plausible explanation for a phenomenon, one that is considerably less lazy than "women don't really want to work with technology" which is basically what you are claiming.
> Since I live in a Scandinavian country, read/watch the media coverage, go about my daily life talking to real people and experiencing real things, maybe I have something to say about your cherry-picking of employment statistics (with no source, though).
> In 2018, in the world's largest economy (depending on how you measure it, of course), you have children not getting enough to eat, not getting adequate education, and not having access to essential facilities and services that would enable them to live decent lives. And the best you can say is "we're getting there"?
>And this does not even touch on places on this planet that are paralysed by seemingly perpetual war,
> famine,
> disease,
> But I suppose you're now going to deny the presenter and those children their experiences because it doesn't fit some broad-brush world-view you're selling.
Posted Jul 6, 2018 16:16 UTC (Fri)
by CycoJ (guest, #70454)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Jul 6, 2018 18:09 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (13 responses)
> You also say that no evidence that barriers exist has been presented,
> so you don't consider having no computer or no internet a barrier to learning programming?
Posted Jul 6, 2018 18:32 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (10 responses)
What does this have to do with IQ?
> Why do asians score higher in IQ tests than whites?
Posted Jul 6, 2018 19:05 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (8 responses)
> What does this have to do with IQ?
Posted Jul 6, 2018 20:06 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (3 responses)
> The point I was trying to make is that merely pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field (e. g. overrepresentation of blacks among criminals, underrepresentation of whites among successful athletes) is not evidence for discrimination.
> Again, I have no idea why blacks are overrepresented among prison inmates.
Posted Jul 6, 2018 23:59 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
Now in the real world IQ is only partially heritable and socioeconomic status is not only a result of IQ, but this effect still exists, so you need to be careful when doing this kind of correction. You need to make sure that the variable you're correcting for is actually independent. For IQ studies that would mean you'd have to work with adopted children.
Posted Jul 7, 2018 5:22 UTC (Sat)
by ghane (guest, #1805)
[Link] (1 responses)
"What do you know about Scandinavia?"
Posted Jul 8, 2018 15:51 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Jul 6, 2018 23:34 UTC (Fri)
by CycoJ (guest, #70454)
[Link] (3 responses)
Except for the significant studies that showed reduced chances of job applicants with typical "black" names vs "white" names or significant studies that showed reduced chances of female job applicants on technical or management jobs vs male applicants.
Posted Jul 6, 2018 23:55 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jul 8, 2018 3:26 UTC (Sun)
by CycoJ (guest, #70454)
[Link] (1 responses)
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resu...
Posted Jul 8, 2018 9:36 UTC (Sun)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
Another interesting observation to make here is that when you articulate doubts about the discrimination narrative of women in tech, you get unfounded accusations of dishonesty. When you point out the discrimination of men in some fields (e. g. conscription), it is simply ignored. How does that fit the narrative? If the tech industry is so misogynistic, wouldn't you expect somebody to show up here and say something that's _actually sexist_, e. g. suggest that women simply aren't smart enough to go into STEM fields (which the data don't support)?
Posted Jul 10, 2018 6:31 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Jul 6, 2018 23:26 UTC (Fri)
by CycoJ (guest, #70454)
[Link] (1 responses)
Which blacks? West Africans, East Africans, North Africans? The genetic differences between different regions in Africa are much bigger than the differences between "black" and "white" skin? As a European I'm always annoyed by the use of the word "race", because it implies a genetic difference based on skin colour that has no scientific foundation.
Posted Jul 7, 2018 0:15 UTC (Sat)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
Posted Jun 26, 2018 18:07 UTC (Tue)
by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051)
[Link] (2 responses)
It's not just six-year-olds that write two lines of code and then roll around in the hallway. In fact, if that was done once-per day, and the code was good, that's productive work for any junior developer! ;)
Posted Jun 26, 2018 19:55 UTC (Tue)
by peter-b (guest, #66996)
[Link]
Posted Jun 26, 2018 20:01 UTC (Tue)
by admalledd (subscriber, #95347)
[Link]
I freely and proudly say this not an exclusive type of experience at my office.
It is now getting warm again outside, and some of the next things to work on may result in a kayak trip... I wonder if I can convince them to let me expense it?
Posted Jun 27, 2018 9:55 UTC (Wed)
by NAR (subscriber, #1313)
[Link]
Posted Jun 27, 2018 14:07 UTC (Wed)
by fmyhr (subscriber, #14803)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 7, 2018 19:45 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Jun 28, 2018 2:54 UTC (Thu)
by pr1268 (guest, #24648)
[Link]
Not to impugn Ms. Goss' hard work, nor Jake's article, but how come I think this is old news? I remember 12 years ago a university professor telling me that Python was (is) intuitive enough, and easy enough, for 4th-grade students (i.e. 9-10 year old schoolchildren) to learn programming. Now the part about how the "bored children" presumably "stumbled upon" programming, and how Ms. Goss took advantage of this while attempting to close the technology gap and combat illiteracy are especially admirable.
Nice work!
Posted Jun 28, 2018 11:26 UTC (Thu)
by sml (guest, #75391)
[Link]
Posted Jul 6, 2018 10:08 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
When I was six, I was reading the New Scientist and understanding most of it. I couldn't spell the word 'and' and had trouble with 'I'.
(Of course, it's all irrelevant to this article, since you definitely need to know how to both read and spell in order to have a hope writing Python, or, really, to have a hope of getting any employment at all.)
Posted Jul 7, 2018 5:27 UTC (Sat)
by ghane (guest, #1805)
[Link] (3 responses)
Spelling function names and variables? I thought that was what an IDE was for?
:-)
Posted Jul 7, 2018 12:47 UTC (Sat)
by amacater (subscriber, #790)
[Link] (2 responses)
Yes, a colleague has just switched back to a flat file editor with no IDE smarts in order to pass an Oracle Java exam. Most modern editors know enough to do syntax highlighting and so on which is a benefit on which you come to rely without realising it.
Writing code line by line and debugging it by eye can be valuable - if only to save you when you're somewhere _without_ an IDE
Posted Jul 7, 2018 18:52 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Jul 7, 2018 19:48 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
I could probably also express myself in a couple of weirder environments, like, say, the strange line editors common on the BBC Micro, C64 and ZX81. But those are just older text editors, so my point stands. :)
Teaching Python to kids
Please, let's go no further with this. You may not care about the barriers that keep a lot of people out of our community, but many of the rest of us feel that we suffer from their absence. Nobody gains anything by attacks on those trying to make things better.
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
That implies that the are such barriers, and you haven't presented evidence for that. OTOH there is considerable evidence that women don't go into tech because they're simply less interested in that sort of thing.
In fact, scandinavian countries have done more than any other society to achieve equity between men and women
Teaching Python to kids
This sort of thing can easily be found on Google (or Sci-Hub). Here's one example of many:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47af/4a7e87267aba681fb69...
You don't need eliminate discrimination to disprove the hypothesis that discrimination is responsible for differences in male and female job choices. Assuming that the hypothesis is true and that discrimination is lower (not zero!) in scandinavian countries, one would have to observe a smaller difference in job choices than elsewhere in the world. Yet that doesn't seem to be the case, in fact we observe the opposite: more discriminatory countries tend to have more women in STEM fields.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323197652_The_Ge...
In 1990, the UN set a goal to reduce the abject poverty rate by 50% over the next 25 years. That goal was reached 5 years early and poverty rates continue to fall to this day and are lower today than they've ever been over the course of human history. So what exactly are you expecting? Humanity is actually doing pretty well, you know.
Oh, except of course in places where they tried to make everybody the same. Try asking some Venezuelans how they feel about that idea.
Teaching Python to kids
It's simply a collection of data stating the preferences in the current socioeconomic situation. Nothing more.
Teaching Python to kids
I said that the gender disbalance in programming is likely the result of women's interests (or lack thereof) rather than discrimination, and that is what I've provided evidence for. I didn't say anything about the reasons why women exhibit those preferences, biological or otherwise.
Also, women being more interested in people and men being more interested in things seems to be a cross-cultural phenomenon. If you want to blame something like that on society, you have some explaining to do.
Teaching Python to kids
And as we all know, interests are totally unaffected by discrimination (perceived or real).
Teaching Python to kids
This would be a much more interesting discussion if you would actually respond to my points, which are:
– this is a cross-cultural phenomenon and thus difficult to explain with only cultural factors
– the differences in male/female job choices get _larger_ in countries with less discrimination
Teaching Python to kids
Given that female discrimination used to be pretty much universal, there's no wonder.
And it needs to be explained, it's meaningless in isolation without controls for other factors (like wealth).
Teaching Python to kids
It's funny that you mention armies, because that's one of the few remaining places where there is _actual_ discrimination. I was drafted and have lost nine months of my life to that.
Anyway, it's kinda obvious why men would enroll in the army and women wouldn't: men are less agreeable than women. This is why the prison population is overwhelmingly male. But then, it might also be because patriarchy :-)
You can discredit _any_ social science result by saying “but it doesn't correct for $FOO”, that's a trivial consequence of the fact that there's an infinite number of variables that the author of a study hasn't corrected for. My answer to that is that if you claim that correcting for $FOO actually makes a difference, you'd better provide data to support that, because otherwise the right thing to do is to ignore that objection.
Teaching Python to kids
So how come women were able to overcome discrimination in fields like psychology, medicine etc., but not in engineering? To make that work with the “discrimination hypothesis”, you'd have to show that there is more sexism among engineers than e. g. psychologists. While that's not impossible, it's yet another deviation from the null hypothesis and therefore requires evidence to support it.
Teaching Python to kids
http://blog.ian.gent/2013/10/the-petrie-multiplier-why-at...
Teaching Python to kids
But the point is that it doesn't seem to be that way in practice. All fields in academia were heavily male-dominated at the beginning of the 20th century, and yet this has switched for a large number of fields, where psychology is just one example. In fact there are more women than men enrolling in universities these days.
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
This is, again, not evidence for discrimination by itself. I have no idea why these numbers are the way they are, I haven't seen compelling evidence either way and you have, once again, not provided any.
Teaching Python to kids
Yet that doesn't seem to be the case, in fact we observe the opposite: more discriminatory countries tend to have more women in STEM fields.
In 1990, the UN set a goal to reduce the abject poverty rate by 50% over the next 25 years. That goal was reached 5 years early and poverty rates continue to fall to this day and are lower today than they've ever been over the course of human history. So what exactly are you expecting? Humanity is actually doing pretty well, you know.
Teaching Python to kids
So where is your data to support that hypothesis? Because otherwise I'm going to go with the null hypothesis, which is the correct thing to do in science.
Yet another claim without evidence. And besides, it is so vague a claim that I wouldn't even know what would constitute evidence.
It's odd how people who claim to speak in favour of women somehow implicitly assume that women are some sort of robots who simply imitate what they see other women do rather than conscious agents capable of making their own choices.
Sure, that would be ideal, and we're not there yet, so how fast do you expect the world to get there? These things don't happen overnight, and the world is moving faster toward that goal than it ever did in human history. So again, how can you say this is not getting enough attention? Because clearly a lot of people are working to fix this, otherwise we wouldn't see the improvements that we are in fact observing.
Oh, so you're saying it's all fake news? Well, I disagree with that. UN reports about this sort of thing are largely trustworthy.
Teaching Python to kids
So where is your data to support that hypothesis?
Yet another claim without evidence.
It's odd how people who claim to speak in favour of women somehow implicitly assume that women are some sort of robots who simply imitate what they see other women do rather than conscious agents capable of making their own choices.
So again, how can you say this is not getting enough attention?
Teaching Python to kids
Except I _did_ provide evidence when you asked. You on the other hand didn't.
I don't care whether you think the explanation is lazy, I care about whether it's true, and the data seem to indicate that.
Oh, you live in Scandinavia, I guess that makes you an expert. I'm sure you've done a representative study among your fellow citizens about the topic at hand and published it in a respectable, peer-reviewed journal, right? Oh you didn't? In that case I'm afraid I don't care where you live.
This sort of moral outrage never fixed any real problem. So yes, we're getting there, faster than ever before in human history.
…which are getting fewer and fewer. The 20th century was actually the most peaceful century in human history, never before was the likelyhood of being killed in violent conflict so low. And things have gotten only more peaceful since the end of world war 2.
Which is at an all-time low.
Healthcare is getting better and better basically all over the world.
It's fascinating how so-called progressives absolutely hate it when you point out to them that progress is actually being made.
Teaching Python to kids
You also say that no evidence that barriers exist has been presented, so you don't consider having no computer or no internet a barrier to learning programming? Not sure how you do your programming, speaking for myself I find it hard without a computer.
Teaching Python to kids
I don't know what the reasons for that are. But here's a question for you: why is it that black men are more successful than whites in track and field athletics? Why do asians score higher in IQ tests than whites? It must be boatpeople privilege or something :-)
I meant that I don't see significant barriers for women in programming. Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly.
I just checked eBay and you can buy a used Laptop (1.6 GHz Core Duo, 2 GB RAM, 120 GB HDD) for 23 €, that's less than 3 hours' worth of work at minimum wage. So yeah, if you can't afford that, that is a barrier, no doubt about it. But let's be realistic about the number of people affected by this in developed countries: not that many.
Teaching Python to kids
Quite possibly because of biological reasons, for the same reason females are usually lighter and have less raw strength.
When corrected for socioeconomic status - they don't. The apparent difference is here because whites from poor families tend to underperform on IQ tests, while poor Asians still test average.
Teaching Python to kids
Given that high intelligence helps achieving high socioeconomic status it doesn't really make a lot of sense to correct for that.
The point I was trying to make is that merely pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field (e. g. overrepresentation of blacks among criminals, underrepresentation of whites among successful athletes) is not evidence for discrimination. Again, I have no idea why blacks are overrepresented among prison inmates.
Teaching Python to kids
Given that many communities appear to be stuck in low-income trap, it needs to be corrected for.
It's not necessarily the evidence, but when coupled with cross-culture studies it becomes such.
Because: 1) racism in police, 2) blacks are generally much more likely to grow in poor communities.
Teaching Python to kids
You clearly didn't get the point, so let me explain. Suppose we live in a world where IQ is 100% heritable and socioeconomic status is 100% determined by IQ. Now suppose you're a scientist in this world trying to find out whether IQ is heritable or determined by the environment. So you'd test some children and some parents and you'd soon realize that there's a 100% correlation in their IQs, so you conclude IQ is 100% heritable.
Now somebody tells you that you need to correct that for socioeconomic status. But because socioeconomic status is entirely the result of IQ in this world, the “corrected” correlation between the children's and the parents' IQs is now 0 – IOW you reach a completely wrong conclusion by “correcting” for socioeconomic status.
Teaching Python to kids
"I live in Scandinavia"
"Oh, so that makes you an expert on Scandinavia?"
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
It's a bit dishonest to say "pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field ... is not evidence for discrimination" while ignoring the significant evidence of discrimination that exists.
Teaching Python to kids
Neither Cyberax nor pboddie ever brought up such studies, so accusing me of dishonesty is quite inappropriate.
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
I never said that no such evidence exists, I said it hasn't been presented, and the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I also made it clear later that I specifically meant evidence for the (significant) discrimination of women in programming, so I don't know why you even brought up race. I appreciate your attempt to provide evidence, but unfortunately it's evidence for the wrong claim.
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
I don't care because it doesn't have to do anything with my point. My point is that people with dark skin (for any sensible definition of dark) are overrepresented among track and field athletics and that that is _not_ a sign of discrimination against people with lighter skin.
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Parkman Coders fundraising links
https://www.dplfound.org/q2
https://dplfriendsfoundation.z2systems.com/np/clients/dpl...
Parkman Coders fundraising links
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
This is fabulous stuff, but I note one thing that doesn't actually follow, although a great many people (including educators) think it does:
Teaching Python to kids
she needs to backtrack to make sure they can read properly. She had a nine-year-old come to her for help the week before her talk; in the process of helping him, she realized he couldn't read. She suggested that he use his last name as part of a username, but he did not know how to spell it.
Weirdly, these are distinct skills. It is quite possible from that evidence that he could read, but couldn't spell at all. You can learn one skill without learning the other, though this is rare (and probably more common in conjunction with dyslexia, etc, but that's in part because that is one of the diagnostic criteria for dyslexia!)
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids
Teaching Python to kids