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Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

The Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC) has responded to a recent blog post from the Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC) regarding the SFC's trademark. SFLC has asked the US Patent and Trademark Office (PTO) to cancel the SFC trademark due to a likelihood of confusion between the two marks; SFC posted about the action on its blog. Now, SFLC is telling its side of the story: "At the end of September, SFLC notified the US Patent and Trademark Office that we have an actual confusion problem caused by the trademark 'Software Freedom Conservancy,' which is confusingly similar to our own pre-existing trademark. US trademark law is all about preventing confusion among sources and suppliers of goods and services in the market. Trademark law acts to provide remedies against situations that create likelihood of, as well as actual, confusion. When you are a trademark holder, if a recent mark junior to yours causes likelihood of or actual confusion, you have a right to inform the PTO that the mark has issued in error, because that’s not supposed to happen. This act of notifying the PTO of a subsequently-issued mark that is causing actual confusion is called a petition to cancel the trademark. That’s not some more aggressive choice that the holder has made; it is not an attack, let alone a 'bizarre' attack, on anybody. That’s the name of the process by which the trademark holder gets the most basic value of the trademark, which is the right to abate confusion caused by the PTO itself."

to post comments

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 21:16 UTC (Mon) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (11 responses)

Sorry, not buying it. In effect the SFLC is asserting that only they have the right to the term "software freedom", since those are the only words that appear in both trademarks. That isn't a right that they should have ("should" is used here from a moral point of view, not a legal point of view), and if the other party refused meetings to discuss surrendering their name, that shouldn't make a difference.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 22:33 UTC (Mon) by h2 (guest, #27965) [Link] (10 responses)

Not to mention being violently against the actual words, software freedom, which should be not some stupid corporate trademark to be picked at by corporate lawyers, but an overall philosophy that one abides by, and which governs ones actions. But of course, anyone who decided that getting rid of Eblen Mogen was a good idea obviously doesn't grasp that ethical concept in the first place.

I'm glad Bruce Perens posted somewhat in depth about this in the recent https://lwn.net/Articles/738046/#Comments thread about this. It's quite revealing who is willing to hear those words and who struggles against hearing them, that's usually a result of not questioning the source of your paycheck I believe is the operative principle...

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 22:53 UTC (Mon) by simcop2387 (subscriber, #101710) [Link]

Direct link to Bruce's posting, https://lwn.net/Articles/738046/#CommAnchor738109

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 23:54 UTC (Mon) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

> But of course, anyone who decided that getting rid of Eblen Mogen was a good idea obviously doesn't grasp that ethical concept in the first place.

You know that he's the one who wrote this (utterly ridiculous, passive-aggressive and just plain aggressive) response statement, right? SFLC is the organization that is agitating in the way that you are arguing against.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 0:11 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

> But of course, anyone who decided that getting rid of Eblen Mogen was a good idea obviously doesn't grasp that ethical concept in the first place.

Eben is very much still at the SFLC, and is listed as one of the authors of the post.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 17:21 UTC (Tue) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (6 responses)

I am increasingly less impressed with Eben Moglen's recent activity.

This "move along, nothing to see here" statement is breathtaking in its disingenuity. SFLC was happy to coexist with SFC until SFLC drifted so far from its mission that they now publicly disagree with longstanding SFC principles, and then attacked.

If SFLC had a problem with SFC's name, the time to complain was when they became aware of SFC, i.e. at its inception. Not acting at that time lost them any high ground. I am not a lawyer, but as I understand trademark law, that lost them the legal high ground they are now squatting.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 18:39 UTC (Tue) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (5 responses)

Considering SFLC was the lawyer that filed the SFC's trademark petition the time to act was to not file the petition in the first place. Eben apparently went to the dark side for the green stuff, lots of people do.

Not quite correct: Conservancy's own lawyer filed registration application

Posted Nov 9, 2017 0:17 UTC (Thu) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link] (4 responses)

Incorrect - and since we have lawyers doing lawyery-stuff here, we should try to be clear on the facts (and then decide how crazy this is).

The SFLC helped to create the Conservancy, and indeed Eben, Daniel Ravicher, and Karen were the original directors of the Conservancy at incorporation time (2006). So the SFLC was clearly aware of the "Software Freedom Conservancy" as the name of an independent organization since they helped to create it and start its work.

Note that in the US, trademarks accrue some rights from common law use; that is, once you start publicly using a specific trademark for your products/services, you can call it your trademark™. You can then apply to the USPTO to register® that trademark, which, if granted, gives you additional rights.

In 2010 the SFLC applied to the USPTO register their name, which presumably they'd been using as a trademark for their services since incorporating in 2005. Note that upon applying, they disclaimed "SOFTWARE" and "LAW CENTER", meaning that the most important part of their mark (so to speak) was "FREEDOM". The registration finally issued (i.e. it became an ®) in 2011 (the USPTO is slow).

Also in 2010, Bradley became the paid Executive Director of Conservancy; their first paid staff IIRC.

In 2011 Conservancy applied to the USPTO register their name, which presumably they'd been using as a trademark for their services since incorporating (with the help of SFLC) in 2006. They disclaimed "SOFTWARE", and used their own lawyer, Tony Sebro, to file the application.

TL;DR: yes, SFLC helped create the name and organization SOFTWARE FREEDOM CONSERVANCY. But they did not help to apply for the registration of the name.

For more details, see my timeline:

https://communityovercode.com/2017/11/software-freedom-tr...

Not quite correct: Conservancy's own lawyer filed registration application

Posted Nov 9, 2017 0:36 UTC (Thu) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link]

Ooops, I see mjw already covered most of this point elsethread:
https://lwn.net/Articles/738355/

trademark freedom as it were

Posted Nov 9, 2017 20:18 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (2 responses)

Note that upon applying, they disclaimed "SOFTWARE" and "LAW CENTER", meaning that the most important part of their mark (so to speak) was "FREEDOM".
I've always wondered about trademark and "Freedom Box"

trademark freedom as it were

Posted Nov 10, 2017 3:24 UTC (Fri) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link] (1 responses)

FREEDOMBOX is registered in the US, with a first use date of 5-Feb-2010 (well after both SFLC and Conservancy), and was filed for *by* counsel from SFLC:

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=85860774&caseType=...

FREEDOMBOX is also for class 9, software and hardware, so it's less likely to be confused with either SFLC or Conservancy's services or products (which focus on legal and organizational stuff, in general).

trademark freedom as it were

Posted Nov 10, 2017 20:31 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

I was concerned more with the idea that it seemed too general a term to be trademarkable (and survive challenges in the long term on those grounds). Sort of like the trademarkability of "french fries box" versus the trademarkability of "freedom fries box". The former seems too generic to be trademarkable to me, while the latter not. Not that I expect my feelings to map with legal code in practice, but I think there are aspects of trademark law restricting trademarkability of terms that are too generic.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 23:16 UTC (Mon) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

That statement is a lot of text that actually gives little facts. They try to trivialize their hostile legal action and don't really explain how any of this is helping the public good. The inflammatory rhetoric and drama makes it really hard to tell why they are doing this in the first place, or how to best de-escalate the issue so both organisations can focus their resources and energy on serving the public again.

To put things in perspective I really appreciate the "just the facts" overviews that Shane Curcuru wrote up:

- https://communityovercode.com/2017/11/legal-issues-softwa...
- https://communityovercode.com/2017/11/software-freedom-tr...

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 6, 2017 23:55 UTC (Mon) by jimi (guest, #6655) [Link] (8 responses)

While I believe this describes a valid case for canceling a trademark in general, I still find myself bewildered because SFLC helped SFC register the trademark in the first place (or so I understand). If it were not for that initial help, I think that the SFLC would have a point. As it is, it seems disingenuous.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 2:25 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes. I think it's valid case, but still a jerky thing to do like this. Why did they not approach the SFC first? It seems at least they could give them a heads up as a courtesy.

That is what makes it 'bizarre'.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 6:33 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (2 responses)

They claim to have done so. They claim a lot of things, and with how much they've misrepresented everything else in this statement, I have no doubt they misrepresented that as well.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 9, 2017 11:37 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link] (1 responses)

Besides, not being able to talk to people who (as they themselves attest) visit your events over the course of more than three years seems ridiculous...

And they talk about 'this and other claims we have concerning their and the Conservancy’s activities' but don't detail any of them. Now the trademark thing - pfff, maybe it seems slightly legit and yes, I can imagine some people confuse the two organizations and yes, if relations where good perhaps the conservancy would be willing to rename it self. But this is hardly important enough to go to war over, so I really would love to hear what those other issues are and I hope for their reputations' sake they're not even more petty than the trademark issue.

Discussing things during a lawsuit (or TTAB proceeding)

Posted Nov 10, 2017 14:40 UTC (Fri) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link]

Yes, the insistence on one side that they've tried talking, and on the other side that they haven't been contacted is disturbing.

In any case, since they're involved in a legal proceeding at this point, I'd bet that Conservancy's listed legal counsel (either their GC or the lawyer who filed their TTAB response) would be happy to respond to any direct requests for negotiation from SFLC.

But once a lawsuit (or TTAB proceeding, which is similar) starts, don't expect the principals to want to talk; ask their lawyers for a meeting with an agenda and specific questions to negotiate. Until you do that, you're not really trying to talk (except perhaps to make PR points).

8-(

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 13:21 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> While I believe this describes a valid case for canceling a trademark in general

The more I read the wild posturing from "the moral high ground", the more I feel the SFC supporters are talking rubbish.

That said, I do believe the SFLC has got things completely wrong. As in "older" |= "senior".

Let's look at the "Apple" trademark. Are you really telling me that if Apple Records wanted to sell computers, they could get Apple Computers' trademark revoked?

Trademarks are "industry specific", and I get the impression that SFLC are moving in on territory long held by SFC. That makes the SFC trademark senior - poetic justice might see the SFLC lose their trademark! I doubt it, but a deal like Apple v Apple is probably on the cards - the SFLC wouldn't be able to use the term "Software Freedom" in those circumstances.

Cheers,
Wol

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 16:47 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> Let's look at the "Apple" trademark. Are you really telling me that if Apple Records wanted to sell computers, they could get Apple Computers' trademark revoked?
Yes. So Apple Computers has an agreement with Apple Records to prevent it. At one time it had actually been forbidding Apple Computers to sell records so they had to famously revise it when Apple started selling music on iTunes.

Trademark classes

Posted Nov 9, 2017 0:25 UTC (Thu) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link]

Trademarks are about preventing user confusion as to the source of a specific product or service. What trademark class - or "industry specific area" is not directly material in terms of how trademark law determines confusion at all (although it's a very common misconception). Separately, APPLE is not a good example, because there are all sorts of special cases for famous trademarks that tend to give them much broader ability to control the mark.

That said, being in different industries certainly does tend to mean users are less likely to be confused between two producers of goods/services.

You can see the specific trademark classes (how the USPTO and most countries segment various industries) in the registrations themselves: SFLC is registered in class 45 for "Legal services". Conservancy is registered in classes 35 (Charitable services around FOSS), and class 9 (software products).

Who registered the mark

Posted Nov 9, 2017 0:19 UTC (Thu) by curcuru (guest, #119436) [Link]

Not quite: SFLC helped create SOFTWARE FREEDOM CONSERVANCY as the name for an independent organization (which presumably de facto functioned as a trademark for them), but SFLC was not involved in applying to register the mark.

"Trademarks" and "Registered trademarks" are different bits of law; details:

https://lwn.net/Articles/738506/

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 2:31 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] (11 responses)

Eben,

Now that you have done this to your former client, for whom SFLC actually filed the same trademark, how can present or future clients ever trust SFLC again?

If there is confusion, why not simply change the name of SFLC? Is SFLC's tiny bit of precedence over SFC really worth this sort of conflict?

Since you have stated SFLC's intention to do the same job that SFC was doing once you take their name, except that you apparently don't plan to enforce the developers rights even to the extent that SFC was doing under the well-accepted Community Principles, it just does not seem ethical to me for SFLC to take the name of an organization that was doing the job for 48 Free Software projects before you decided to get in that business. You should be the paragon of ethical standards for our community, not an organization that does something so seemingly classless.

Free Software developers give away a whole lot of rights. Now, you are telling us that's not enough. Having given the world our software on the most liberal of terms, we are not to enforce even that license?

Your paper on why we must now stop enforcement is erroneous. The organizations you cite as rejecting GPL in granting research funding are arguably not doing it because the GPL is scary. I think they are doing it because they are publicly funded, and the GPL is not necessarily the best license to grant maximal utility in a publicly funded project to all of the people, including the proprietary software manufacturers who presumably pay taxes like everyone else (acknowledging arguments that Microsoft hasn't had any Federal income tax bill in some years). The BSD license was created specifically for that purpose. But even if those organizations have been lobbied to eschew the GPL, and I can guess by who, shouldn't we fight that?

And why does it worry you now that the GPL is scary? Hasn't it been an uphill fight all of the way?

You are not acting like the Eben I know. I am sure that your dear friend Richard, whom you've been with for I guess 40 years now, is heartbroken. I am too. And I am holding out hope that you will come to your senses.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 3:31 UTC (Tue) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (6 responses)

I agree with everything Bruce has said, and I find this latest SFLC "explanation" as bizarre and nonresponsive as their original act. They are now clearly on the side of enemies of free/libre software, not its friends.

I would like to differ with him in a friendly way with one part: the antipathy now shown by granting agencies to the GPL is most easily explained by the fact that most lobbying and campaign donations are corporate, and corporations like to mine for profit academic innovations at one time created for the public good.

The 1980 Bayh-Dole act permitted publicly funded research to be privatized. This is of a piece with the commercialization of the public sphere. I don't buy the argument that "corporations are taxpayers too" and get special or personhood rights. This is indirectly a defense of the spurious personhood argument which dominates modern court application of the 14th amendment -- an amendment which clearly states its purpose is to protect the "life, liberty, or property", of "any person", "without due process of law" -- this one of the trio of amendments occasioned by the Civil War.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 9:05 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (2 responses)

Please do not use a generic "corporation" qualifier.

Corporations in general are software users and they are fine with "viral" GPL licenses. Those licenses protect the right of software users, they are not in the software distribution business, and they are quite happy to have someone centralizing fixes and enhancements for them (the only sticking point may be the AGPL for internet facing corporate web sites and services). They would in fact pay a little more for upstreaming code since it means they won't have to pay for the same fixes on their next project.

The armies of contractors that write code for those corporations are fine with the concept too. As long as their customer is happy this the licence, they'll be paid regardless of what this licence is.

IT corporations, that's something else entirely. A lot of them adopted "free software" to benefit from "general corporation" purchases, and to get gratis sources of code. But deep down they feel the whole concept would be idiotic to apply to their own activity. They have engaged on a multi-year lobbying effort to water it down to something ineffective that can still be used marketing-side to greenwash their own products. A lot of them are based in California and they've been quite successful in saturating the Silicon Valley echo chamber with their message.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 17:02 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

I think the mention of corporations needing to benefit from taxpayer-funded work and observations of the privatisation of academia are getting mixed up here. Like individuals, corporations shouldn't have to pay again for work that they have already paid for, as long as they pay their taxes, of course.

But university spin-offs can exhibit the worst corporate traits, with "innovation" and "technology transfer" offices prosecuting the kind of venture capital doctrine that results in the hoarding and monopolisation of research for the purposes of value inflation and the stifling of competition. Those people will quite happily demand multiples of the previous taxpayer investments over and over again from the taxpayer.

Of course, the real argument for copyleft in academia is that it ensures that research activities and their products can pay societal dividends by continuing to exist in a transparent and accessible form.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 10, 2017 8:48 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

+1 to the last paragraph. There are sustained campaigns out there to undermine the GPL by a number of corporates. Part of it involves funding smaller sock-puppets.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 17:23 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] (2 responses)

I acknowledge the argument that placing public work under copyleft might be better for the public in the large, although perhaps worse for some members of the public who are proprietary software manufacturers. But in a discussion like this, it's necessary to have some empathy for the proprietary software manufacturer and at least evaluate their argument, as I have done above.

I agree that most proprietary software manufacturers are corporations, but they don't have to be. Regarding the personification of corporations, I agree that it gives them an unfair advantage if 1) they don't die unlike individuals and thus their assets are not redistributed 2) they have preferred tax rates over individuals and other legal advantages and 3) they are operated solely to maximize income without a constitutional requirement for ethical conduct. I note that California now allows the B corporation, which can pursue both economic and social objectives. This does not, however, impose any such requirement on other sorts of corporations.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 13:34 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

Somewhat drifting off topic but ...

> I agree that most proprietary software manufacturers are corporations, but they don't have to be. Regarding the personification of corporations, I agree that it gives them an unfair advantage if 1) they don't die unlike individuals and thus their assets are not redistributed

imho irrelevant. The worst thing as far as I am concerned is that they shield individuals from personal wrongdoing. A corporation is supposedly a group of like-minded individuals doing business together. The assets - allegedly - are passed from person to person.

> 2) they have preferred tax rates over individuals and other legal advantages and

Corporation tax and the like are widely acknowledged by economists to be a "bad" tax, in that they are costly to the economy and a drag on economic activity. The individual owners should be taxed based on their share of the corporation - *when they realise that value*.

> 3) they are operated solely to maximize income without a constitutional requirement for ethical conduct.

This, unfortunately, seems to be a - totally misguided - legal requirement. The corporation is allegedly operated on behalf of the shareholders, and indeed is legally obliged to place their interests over that of customers and employees - the law is a blind ass - blind to the fact that a shareholder may be both a customer and an employee and screwing over customers while sacking employees is actually damaging the shareholder! (All the while, senior management are often plundering company assets!)

> I note that California now allows the B corporation, which can pursue both economic and social objectives. This does not, however, impose any such requirement on other sorts of corporations.

As opposed to UK law, which requires corporations to operate within their Articles of Association. If those articles (as set up by the original shareholders, and maybe amended by subsequent generations) are ignored, then the board may be held criminally liable for breach of trust. These may well contain a requirement for social responsibility.

Cheers,
Wol

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 9, 2017 11:45 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

The main issue with 2 is, I think, that individuals often set up a corporation to purchase things for their personal use. While this is technically prohibited, you don't think Bill Gates pays for his flights or a Bentley he wants in front of the door, do you?

As long as it is possible to use a corporation to avoid paying personal taxes, there's at least one good reason to tax corporations.

Another is the simple fact that economic activity results in costs. A transportation company uses roads, any company requires the court system to be functioning, policing warehouses really is a thing, and as history has shown, oversight and things like certification are needed in many areas (like environment, food safety, banking, work safety and pretty much everywhere else). But perhaps this could be best paid for by companies to the degree they need any of those, rather than by a flat tax.

I do agree that the dislike for lowering corporate taxes which many people have is misplaced. In the end (and in theory), it would be best to only tax when the money ends up in hands of actual people.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 9:18 UTC (Tue) by armijn (subscriber, #3653) [Link] (1 responses)

From the blogpost:

"The junior mark causing the confusion was applied for in November 2011, almost a year after SFLC ceased representing the Conservancy; the Conservancy had its own lawyer, who signed the trademark application."

which is very easy to check with USPTO.

SFLC did NOT file the SFC trademark, and that is not an opinion, but a fact.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 15:20 UTC (Tue) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

> SFLC did NOT file the SFC trademark, and that is not an opinion, but a fact.

Technically true. Tony Sebro filed the registered trademark application for Conservancy in November 2011. At that particular point Conservancy had indeed become big enough to hire their own General Counsel https://sfconservancy.org/news/2011/sep/30/general-counsel/ but they were still getting legal advice and assistance from others, including the SFLC. And the trademarks had already been in simulations use since 2005. The SFLC had helped them years earlier to file for an independent non-profit under that trademark name in 2006. And the law center only filed for a registered trademark a couple of months earlier in 2011 itself (which was actually done for SFLC by Karen). So at all times were they fully aware of the trademarks as used by themselves and by their client. And that wasn't a problem for more than a decade. But yes, the lawyer of record for the registered trademark for Conservancy was not employed by them. I am note sure that really makes it very honest to suddenly petition for cancellation of that registered trademark years later.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 11:45 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

"Law Center of many colours!"

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 9, 2017 2:09 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

There is an error in my message. While SFLC registered Software Freedom Conservancy under that name as a corporation, and the name Software Freedom Conservancy became a common-law trademark at that point if it wasn't one before, SFC eventually registered its own name with USPTO.

This doesn't really change my complaint. SFLC was SFC's counsel for their formation, and did form them with the name that SFLC now objects to.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 2:44 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

>What Should Happen Next?
>Everyone observing this situation, we suspect, knows the answer to this question.
You have a sudden epiphany and stop Streisanding your business like GrSec did?

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 2:51 UTC (Tue) by xnox (guest, #63320) [Link] (1 responses)

I was confused for about half of my tenure of being SPI director what the difference between the Law Center and The Conservancy is. Imho, both are poorly named and need rebranding. I wish both trademarks would be cancelled since both are too generic.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 18:58 UTC (Tue) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

I agree with you actually, I think both names are confusing word soups. But it's not up to SFLC to decide that SFC should change their name. SFC actually does what the words in their name mean, if anyone mark should be eliminated it should be SFLC.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 6:30 UTC (Tue) by rra (subscriber, #99804) [Link]

Well, without serious corrective action on their part that doesn't seem to be forthcoming, that's the last time I will ever support the Software Freedom Law Center in any way. That's really a shame. But that response is in no way an explanation. It's verging on an anti-explanation: an assertion that no explanation is required because they have legal power and the Software Freedom Conservancy does not and therefore they can do whatever they wish.

I used to have a lot of respect for Eben Moglen. But this is pure thuggery under the guise of law, and with the reasons left this contemptuously unstated, one has to assume that the worst things that have been said about the motives of the Software Freedom Law Center are simply the truth.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 17:35 UTC (Tue) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (6 responses)

This action leads me to discount every opinion expressed by Eben Moglen over the past decade.

Eben Moglen has exposed his true colors. He is not a friend to Free Software today. We can reasonably conclude that he has not been a friend to Free Software in a long time.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 7, 2017 20:28 UTC (Tue) by aethelwulffe (guest, #119482) [Link] (5 responses)

I am sorry that the following is true: At the tip of the spear of many organizations, including those that propose to stand for high ideals, there is a dedicated, driven and highly intelligent megalomaniac sociopath that has hijacked the whole thing to give themselves self worth and meaning. They are sociopaths. They are (very) skilled at emulating social behavior and masking their contempt. They insinuate themselves, then ultimately stage a coup and put themselves in the driver's seat. The problem is, they do tend to produce results. Typically, the results seem good, and there is no denying the hours they put in. They also tend to keep an organization completely static, meaning once they have that element of ownership and control, they actively work to keep things *just as they are*. These dear folks hide behind the mask of civility, and dupe a great many people around them. Then they use every means in their deep arsenal of manipulative tricks to maintain control. They (mostly) recognize their own behaviors that are frowned on, so when they feel they need to strike a blow for control, they will have ready rationalizations and have developed a support base. Ultimately, they will bill themselves as the arbiter of what "the community wants". When they speak, they are just speaking for "the community". If you suggest something that does not fit with their goals, you are "going against the community". These people are IMPOSSIBLE to uproot natively. They are good at being sociopaths. They will always be ready to escalate one level higher than anyone else, because they do not actually have normal emotions. Once an organization has one of these evil bastards in control, all future work is worthless, and you are not going to ever ever ever be able to get them to step down. Hint that they need to loosen the reins and they will accuse you of trying to be/do exactly what they are doing themselves. In Open Source Software, we really only have one route around these folks, which is one more than the average corporation or Banana Republic Dictatorship has. It looks something like "$ git clone https://git.argentina.com". Now, once you have done that, you will come under fire. Intense fire. Utterly merciless day and night desperation to destroy your little new competing project. Once it seems that you are going to be successful despite their efforts, they will try to slip their way into your new "open" community. There, they will take over again. If you make it super obvious that it is a personal break with the sociopath to keep them out of the new organization, they can freely bash your name, but they have to mostly leave you alone. So, as you advance your new project along, the old project will have to start copying (usually copy and *paste*) your efforts to compete. Naturally you shouldn't expect attribution to remain intact! All the same it is a very interesting way to move the original project along! I really feel for the SFC. You folks seem to have your madman identified, but YOU MUST NEVER FORGET that you are dealing with a sociopath. Do not engage them personally. Do not recognize/respond to any statements they make. Legal confrontation (and it sucks that these asshats are attack dogs themselves) is your only recourse.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 3:37 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (1 responses)

Is this really necessary? It strikes me as an ahistorical and static analysis laden with pessimism and contempt.

I detest Eben's current actions. They strike me as thoroughly unprincipled, backbiting, and carried out with unclean hands. But the Eben who appeared to die here also lived, and had many years of immense contributions to free software. That's one of the great tragedies of this affair, and ample reason for those with whom he struggled over a generation and more for free software to grieve. However, those contributions endure.

I suspect that the forces of "mainstream" respectability eventually came to overwhelm the outsider status into which the mainstream has always tried to place the GPL. It's certainly going to be the default perspective of the Columbia law faculty and that of corporate boards and the types with which one would socialize within the Linux Foundation. The temptation to "influence from within" must be immense, whatever the capitulation it represents. And probably that is not fully consciously realized, if even at all. It's a perspective which saturates the talk Moglen gave which has been referred to earlier.

And the Linux Foundation has grown in resources rapidly and exerts to a certain type a respectability according to its cash flow: it's been upping its executive salaries by 20% a year and now processes gross receipts of almost $40 million per year. Its external legal fees alone approached $750k in 2015, and from Zemlin's $645k (second only to Torvalds) to young whipper snapper Michael Dolan's $343k, its top-paid employees are very, very well paid indeed.

Upton Sinclair gave a great maxim: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Now Eben's salary is guaranteed, but not the social standing within this management caste. Consciousness appears here to have eventually been determined by environment, as it is all too often.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 11:59 UTC (Wed) by seckford (guest, #118119) [Link]

I'm suprised that the SFLC approved the release of that statement, which is very poorly drafted; self-pitying, discursive, and giving no real idea of the background of the SFLC's arguments. Obviously only the legal documents are now relevant, but the SFLC has a position to maintain, and whatever that position is, their statement doesn't improve it.

Will

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 23:21 UTC (Wed) by HenrikH (subscriber, #31152) [Link] (2 responses)

On the contrary I believe that the number of sociopaths in corporations are not only quite low but quite non existent.

You see a sociopath screws people over without even knowing it and people do not like that, so it takes extraordinary circumstances for a sociopath to be long lived within any organisation.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 8, 2017 23:59 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> On the contrary I believe that the number of sociopaths in corporations are not only quite low but quite non existent.

On the contrary, it's well established that the traits that are prized (and rewarded!) at the upper levels of management, including executives, are highly sociopathic. Those traits filter down, due to the nature of the reward system.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 9, 2017 14:54 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

There's no specific difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, by objectively defensible criteria. But there are very big differences between one psychopath and another; some are hot-headed, others cold-blooded. Some are brilliant, others idiots. I have seen no reason to think Eben Moglen is one, as opposed to (e.g.) a garden-variety untrustworthy individual.

I know a psychologist whose entire livelihood is administering psychopathology testing of business executives. Who hires him? Corporate boards, possibly in response to legal trouble; probably also psychopaths eliminating competition. I don't doubt there are others whose livelihood is coaching the business executives in how to beat such testing. Dr. James Fallon is a successful psychologist who is also a psychopath.

Concerning a Statement by the Conservancy (Software Freedom Law Center Blog)

Posted Nov 9, 2017 16:48 UTC (Thu) by jdulaney (subscriber, #83672) [Link]

I call bull sheet.


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