Printing a Linux Nightmare
Printing a Linux Nightmare
Posted Feb 26, 2004 22:20 UTC (Thu) by shredwheat (guest, #4188)Parent article: The Luxury of Ignorance: An Open-Source Horror Story (catb.org)
I've been using Linux for awhile. I've found configuring printers is a monstrosity. I've still never been able to get printing working as well as it should. Even with a fairly common Epson 740, printing is hit and miss. Some things kind of work, many things don't work at all.
The problem is there are too many tools and none of them are good. You can find documentation for one tool but it doesn't quite work with another. For all the things linux can autodetect and use, printers is not one of them. Which seems strange because I've never seen Windows have problem detecting and using printers for the past decade. I thought these issues were solved?
Luckily there is a windows machine in the house. Not there's any chance of setting up remote samba printing (try, read docs, try, read docs, try, give up). It's emberrassing to transfer files and print remotely, but it works and I'll take it.
To be honest I'm on Debian, which doesn't directly come with printer tools. But I've already installed no end of foomatics and "gui helpers". You've got to know another language to even get through the odd CUPS web tool. A language it appears there is no help for.
For the love of all things, a simple HOWTO would be welcome, but nothing was available when I was searching a year or so ago.
Posted Feb 26, 2004 22:37 UTC (Thu)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Feb 26, 2004 23:08 UTC (Thu)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link] (10 responses)
KDE's KDEprint is a true miracle. It just works. However, that comes after CUPS is already set up. I am mentioning it because SUSE has cunningly neglected to talk about CUPS passwords, and you can only fully use the KDEprint GUI after you have and know a CUPS password. Finding out about the password requires an act of ancient magic. Eric is describing a Fedora problem as far as I can tell. It doesn't sound as though he was using a CUPS-shipped tool in the first place. He's bashing the wrong people. He did find the CUPS GUI, though, it seems, which is html based and clean as far as I remember. How well does it work? I don't know.
Posted Feb 26, 2004 23:18 UTC (Thu)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link]
It is not only the developers of a project which need to ship proper docs. Much rather it is the fault of too many too fragmented distribution config tools which are written _instead_ of using the originally shipped GUI. Each distro replacing CUPS's default GUI with its homegrown one means (a) less exposure and bugfixing for the actual project The fact that we have a plethora of mutually inconsistent setup tools from each distro is a marketing disaster and a clear weakness of "Linux" as a whole.
Posted Feb 27, 2004 1:38 UTC (Fri)
by hijab (guest, #4134)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 27, 2004 1:53 UTC (Fri)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
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This is better than it used to be - to reset the printer status, editing something evil in /etc/cups/bla bla was a valid way out. No longer, thanks to kdeprint, but for the password, I had to read some man pages. Anyhow, CUPS works beautifully, but kdeprint really is a killer interface! _That_ really solved my Linux printing problems, in everyday use, which is much better than just the setup issue - it simply does the job!
Posted Feb 27, 2004 9:50 UTC (Fri)
by irios (guest, #19838)
[Link] (6 responses)
Well, *maybe* if the printer is connected directly to her computer, and she ain't sharing it with anybody, and won't go beyond basic printing. But if she wants to share her printer on the WiFi with her sister Ada, YAST will do nothing to mitigate the NIGHTMARE. Whoever has tried to configure CUPS must have missed a grimoire even more than clear and concise documentation. Somebody abobe says that printers are a pain under any OS. Well, it is a very sad fact that they are a REAL PAIN in the ... under Linux, but under windows THEY ARE NOT A PAIN AT ALL: plug them on a server, plug them on a workstation, and GO. Want to print? Go. Want colour? Click and go. Want hires? Click and go. Want double sided? Click and go. There *have* been improvements in printing: at least, local printing is easy to achieve with modern distributions, even though the user interface leaves A LOT to be desired, with multiple queues for the same printer, multiple mays to watch these queues, and multiple ways to configure them, all af them not so subtly different, and not necessarily interoperable. Not an Elm Street nightmare anymore (maybe), but one of those "i'm naked in the street and everyone is watching" nightmare nonetheless.
Posted Feb 27, 2004 12:51 UTC (Fri)
by ringerc (subscriber, #3071)
[Link] (1 responses)
As it happens, my personal experience of printing under Linux has been very bad, too - all sorts of issues with PostScript mangling (esp from Macs), no user feedback on job status, the usual obsession with the non-standard US Letter paper size, jobs failing silently, difficulty cancelling jobs, etc. Alas, little I've been able to pin down as hard bugs and report usefully. I do think a distro-independent GUI for CUPS (other than the web interface) would be a welcome change. Also desparately needed is a printing status monitor and notification system - perhaps hook it into D-BUS, with a "print monitor" app to monitor and control things? That way you could also have panel applets in GNOME/KDE for "at a glance" status, and you could also enable applications to monitor the status of print jobs they've submitted. Better feedback from locally and remotely connected printers is also very important, and very lacking under current linux print systems. Overall, I think that printing on every OS I've ever worked with has been totally crap, and I regularly wish I could simply get rid of the damnn printers entirely.
Posted Feb 27, 2004 16:38 UTC (Fri)
by rfunk (subscriber, #4054)
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Posted Feb 27, 2004 14:03 UTC (Fri)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link] (3 responses)
I am not Aunt Tillie, but I have never had an easier printer install under Linux that SUSE 9.0 .
Posted Feb 27, 2004 16:53 UTC (Fri)
by irios (guest, #19838)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 27, 2004 17:08 UTC (Fri)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link]
About the plethora of different print tools: I think the problem is that SUSE, like everyone else, first invents their own tools, and second leaves all the KDE tools (printing manager in particular) hanging around. So, there is confusing redundancy. They would be much better advised to focus on _one_ common infrastructure (KDE) and polish that, rather than roll their own. However, I suppose then there is a separate structure for Gnome, and Xfce, and and and. Fragmentation killed Unix, and it burdens Linux.
Posted Feb 27, 2004 21:53 UTC (Fri)
by hijab (guest, #4134)
[Link]
Posted Feb 26, 2004 23:39 UTC (Thu)
by au79 (guest, #16869)
[Link]
Posted Feb 27, 2004 5:23 UTC (Fri)
by Webexcess (guest, #197)
[Link]
A little more than a year ago I was driven up the wall by the same interface you and ESR are complaining about. I'm certainly not an expert, but when I finally got it working I channeled my anger into writing a howto for Printing with Debian and Windows. It avoids GUI tools and has worked for at least a couple of people.
You know, I've configured printers under VMS, SunOS, Solaris, Irix, HPUX, and even Windows. My experience boils down to this: printers are a pain. Some systems make setting up printers harder than others (early Solaris releases had a truly unbelievable print system; don't know if they've improved it since or not), but it remains an obnoxious task. CUPS is actually better than many of the alternatives.
Printing a Linux Nightmare
Configure printers under SUSE, and the pains are gone. However, that is using YAST, not CUPS-shipped tools. Not free software, but will make Aunt Tillie happy enough.Printing a Linux Nightmare
One more: I think Eric's criticism is badly aimed. Printing a Linux Nightmare
(b) 15 different tools for the same task, each with its own unique bugs
(c) disconnect between the (possibly deficient) distro's tool and the actually capable projects setup tools.
Printing a Linux Nightmare
I don't understand some of my friends. Many of them use Fedora/Redhat/etc
and I hear stories like this about Samba, CUPS, etc..Yet they swear they
will never use SUSE because of some horror story they've had.
I've maintained 50 SUSE desktops (8.2 and 9.0 currently) and 2 SUSE
servers for about 4 years now. My experience with printing: lpr was a
nightmare, lprng was somewhat better, but when SUSE's implementation of
CUPS arrived, it was like a breath of fresh air. Everything worked.
Printing queues are set on the server,the clients just listen to the
server, so no reconfig for them when modifying/adding a printer. Of
course, I don't know maybe SUSE added some magic (YAST) that makes CUPS
work (it was even able to read the manufacturer's printer pdd file off
the CD-ROM), but it works and it works well.
BTW, we use KDEprint all the time (even in non-KDE apps), but I never was
confronted with a CUPS password or needed one, although I did have to add
cupsd:localhost to the hosts.allow file at one point.
Nobody says I have to use SUSE, nobody says I have to use Samba, nobody
says I have to use CUPS. I have other things to do with my life, I don't
want to constantly tinker with my systems.
I find the consistency of KDE so appealing that I use konqueror more than
99% of the time, maybe mozilla the other 1%. I understand ESR's
frustration; but, surely, having built his own masterpieces, he can
appreciate the value of software like Samba and CUPS.
Yes, perhaps the UI for CUPS is not ready for Aunt Tillie, but it sure is
usable by me, and hence by the 300-odd people who rely on my systems.
In case this needs to be said: Thank you CUPS for an outstanding piece of
work.
SUSE 9.0 . If a user wishes to change the printer status from an incorrect "offline" to ready, that can be done using right-click on the printer in kdeprint. However, the action has no effect unless the user enters a valid cups password - which, by default, is different than the user's password. cups password
SUSE YAST will make aunt Tillie happy? Ha! Printing a Linux Nightmare
Ever tried running a windows print server? It doesn't always "just work" I assure you. Fun with crap drivers, jobs that just don't want to cancel no matter what, etc. I do agree that it's _much_ easier to configure than under Linux, though more advanced configuration can be harder. Oh - and next time you set up a printer for A4 printing under Windows, count the number of different places you need to change "Letter" to "A4". With the last printer I set up, it was _eight_. *grinds teeth*.Windows printing easy
Heh, you're annoyed by always having to switch from Letter to A4. I'm Windows printing easy
annoyed because some apps seem to insist on always going back to A4 after
I've told them to use Letter.
And A4 is as nonstandard over here as Letter is over there. :-)
I grieve with you for your experiences, but other than that, I apologize, and you do not Printing a Linux Nightmare
reflect my experiences here. I
was talking about a network printer only environment. YaST worked flawlessly, one queue
per printer. kprint manages the different settings for individual print jobs just fine.
This is not an advertisement, I realize there are many flaws and quirks left in almost every
user interface. But your topic was YaST, and have you really tried to use it together with
kdeprint as a client in a network?
Not (yet) on SUSE9, though I will try exactly that in the next few (I Printing a Linux Nightmare
hope) minutes. We've tried all sorts of combinations of SUSE 7 and 8,
CUPS and Samba, Windows 98 and 2K in my office, and it never happenned
that everyone could print (or that anyone in particular could print for a
very long period).
It was been such a hassle that the administrator (admittedly not a
super-expert, but not Aunt Tillie either) gave up, hung the printer from
a seldom used Windows machine, and let it stay like that. I seldom have
to print, but when I do it is OpenOffice docs or OrCAD designs (which are
natively Win, anyway) , so I move into Windows and print, then go back to
Linux. If desperate, I plug the printer in my machine: that works fine.
As for SusE, I don't think they've done the best job with print admin,
with two different entries in KDE's Control Center --
Modules->Hardware->Printer and Peripherals->Printers -- as well as
entries in the main menu in System->Monitor->PrintJobs and
Utilities->Print->PrinterAdministration, which do largely the same.
Before you dispair, there's also text-mode yast, CUPS http admin, and
last but not least, manual editing of /etc/xxxx with much praying and
cursing. And surely, there must be some equivalent options in Gnome which
I dare not explore.
All these means to one end, and none good!
> Overall, I think that printing on every OS I've ever worked with has
> been totally crap, and I regularly wish I could simply get rid of the
> damnn printers entirely
HAHAHA! I agree ... "I've got a dream ...!"
Curious to hear whether SUSE9 does better. Printing a Linux Nightmare
Printing a Linux Nightmare
If you have trouble, email me - suse.linux(at)temple.edu
Just a note from another Debian (unstable) user (somewhat stable): I was very Printing (for me) a Linux Dream
pleasantly surprised when trying to get printing working that the combination of
CUPS and KDE made the effort painless.
Rather than try to remember everything I have done, check this out:
http://mumford1.dyndns.org/~bs7452/linuxhelp/cups.html
It seems to be a good resource, and does not rely on your using KDE, which my
instructions would. I used the kaddprinterwizard to add my printer -- I think it
performs the CUPS config. At no point did I need to edit CUPS config files directly.
Instructions for the additional setup of Samba to share the CUPS printers can be
found here:
http://cups.org/sam.html#8_8
If you want to chat about it, drop me a line at printer-setup (at) oolong (dot) com.
HTH,
au79
To be honest I'm on Debian, which doesn't directly come with printer tools. But I've already installed no end of foomatics and "gui helpers". Printing a Linux Nightmare
[...]
For the love of all things, a simple HOWTO would be welcome, but nothing was available when I was searching a year or so ago.
</shameless plug>