GNOME turns 20 [LWN.net]

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 12:06 UTC (Wed) by ken (subscriber, #625) [Link] (29 responses)

One thing the early gnome system got "right" was the workspace grid. Even since I started to use linux in 93 I have used a 3x3 grid. But later version has always had issues and now I can't get it to work at all, the extension for it do not work on ubuntu 17.10.

But I guess it's user friendly as long as you use it exactly as they force you to.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 14:48 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (27 responses)

You are being sour and unfair.

Workspace grids have some serious usability issues and while they worked for you they certainly didn't work for everybody.

The extensions are the solution for this and it's unfortunate you can't get it to work. I suggest contacting the extension author or trying a different extension, like 'frippery panel'

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 15:45 UTC (Wed) by ken (subscriber, #625) [Link] (23 responses)

Unfair ??

I'm not aware of any usability problems with a grid layout and I have been using it for over 20 years. What is the problems ?

Extensions is very much a second class citizen in gnome so its not much of a solution. I have for example no idea of what version of the grid extension I use or even how to see if there is a new version unless I go and hunt for it on the web. I have to use some tweak tool to control it and how you actually install them is very strange. I need some plugin into my web browser to even do that. How that was ever allowed to happen is a mystery.

over all its not user friendly by my measure. The only thing I can reliably expect of a new version of GNOME is that something I use has been removed.

If gnome people design a car they would simplify it by removing the second gear as it was almost never used. sure its not use very much but it still serve a purpose.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 19:29 UTC (Wed) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link] (1 responses)

"Extensions is very much a second class citizen in gnome so its not much of a solution." Extensions are a critical part of Gnome Shell and built right into it. This is basically how people have criticized Gnome Shell in the past.

Old time Unix user (OTUU): The Gnome devs have dumbed down everything for noobs and touch screens!
Gnome devs: You can customize the whole shell either by programming yourself or using extensions other people have written.
OTUU:.....I want a checkbox for my preferred option!

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 19, 2017 7:54 UTC (Sat) by ThinkRob (guest, #64513) [Link]

> Extensions are a critical part of Gnome Shell and built right into it. This is basically how people have criticized Gnome Shell in the past.

To be fair, the API wasn't technically "stable" until *very* recently.

So for the first several years of GNOME 3, the answer of "oh, just write an extension" was pretty unsatisfactory for a lot of folks.

I'm hoping that the existence of a stable API will convince more people to implement complex extensions for the various niche workflows/requests and get more users on board.

'cause if you are OK with 98+% of GNOME 3 IMHO it's pretty sweet.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 21:35 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (20 responses)

> Unfair ??

Yes.

> But I guess it's user friendly as long as you use it exactly as they force you to.

That's unfair. They built a debugger right into the desktop to make it easier for people to script it and choose pretty much the most popular and widely known programming language out there to make as accessible as possible to programmers. These are not people interested in alienating advanced users.

> I'm not aware of any usability problems with a grid layout and I have been using it for over 20 years. What is the problems ?

The problem is that it's non-intuitive and applications and desktops just 'disappear' for users who never used a grid layout before. They would be clicking along doing work, accidentally click on the wrong portion of the tool bar or hit the wrong key and *woosh* everything they have open just disappears. The Gnome 2 desktop gave almost no indication whatsoever where things have gone besides a very nondescript box in the upper toolbar.

In addition to this the Grid-layout widgets with previews of the windows are either gigantic things that take up a significant portion of the screen all the time or they end up being so small that as a preview they are useless for moving windows around or finding windows once they are moved. So your choice is in the past was to use a big widget that is useful to find and move windows, but is in the way constantly. Or use a small one that is useful only as a symbolic representation of your desktop.

What this meant is practice is that Linux users like you or myself are forced you to either hunt around for windows constantly or to have a static layout were you have simply memorized where everything is. Since you've been using it so long it's fairly safe to say that you've grown accustom to working around it's inadequacies and have long since forgotten the work you had to put in in order to make it work for your particular use case. This is perfectly fine and is normal and people do it all the time with the software they use. People work around issues and then the work-arounds become strengths.

The Gnome-shell switch to using overlay mode with dynamically growing workspaces from a grid layout was a attempt to salvage the concept and make it intuitive. By having a overlay mode they are able to made the widget gigantic and have it be useful for moving windows around and finding things easily without it getting in the way of applications when you are using them. No longer are entire groups of users mysteriously disappearing. The same mechanism they use to launch the applications in the first place is the one that they can use to trivially and quickly locate any window.

By having dynamically creating workspaces they significantly reduced the need to micromanage the number and arrangement of the workspaces. People no longer have to choose how many workspaces they have. They can always have as many as they want without having any more then what they want.. automatically.

Each design choice is a series of compromises. One of the causalities of this change is the elimination of the minimize button. Windows that are minimized don't generate previews in the overlay mode, which means that they become very difficult to find without resorting to lists of windows a user has to dig through.

The Gnome extensions exist to allow each user to choose a different set of compromises without forcing the complexity on all the rest of the users. That too isn't perfect, obviously.

> If gnome people design a car they would simplify it by removing the second gear as it was almost never used.

Should I now liken grid workspaces to having 3 extra steering wheels attached to random parts of the dashboard and car door? That is very silly and less then useful for the discussion. Car analogies kinda suck.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 23:54 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

> The problem is that it's non-intuitive and applications and desktops just 'disappear' for users who never used a grid layout before.
Windows has a grid, Mac OS X has a grid, Linux had it since forever.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 12:07 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

And I guess this might be what I'm swearing at as something that seems to have appeared recently in KDE ...

I'm used to having a taskbar with only a few apps open. That's my use case, that's fine for me. So when I put the mouse in the wrong part of the screen (I still haven't worked out what's going on ...) all my apps turn into icons all over the screen ... :-(

Why the **** do all these new whizz-bang ways of making things "easier" have to be ON by default where they screw over users who neither need them, want them, nor understand them!

Cheers,
Wol

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 17:25 UTC (Thu) by MattJD (subscriber, #91390) [Link] (4 responses)

You can change that behaviour in the Screen Edges settings in System Settings.

But that's been enabled for years now by default. And things meant to make things easier should be on by default. Most users don't change defaults, and so by disabling features meant to make computers easier means that most users won't be able to use them.

Whether the particular feature accomplishes it's goal is a different debate. And I have a feeling we can both provide anecdotal evidence to either side.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 17:33 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (1 responses)

Virtually everything that involves magic behaviour when the pointer strays into some completely unmarked special zone is just wrong. It doesn't matter if it is at the edge of the screen or not: some users do not have the coordination to play "pointer assault course" when focusing on a particular activity that they may already find rather demanding.

(You see this on Web pages, too, now where if you don't avoid some menu region, you get a "thunk" and the page gets dimmed while some menu dominates the display and saturates the CPU.)

And as for it being the "default", I can easily imagine that for some users the distribution has switched it off by "default", like Red Hat has probably done for RHEL because they don't want the deluge of complaints and "non-adoption" that such features would undoubtedly cause.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 20, 2017 12:57 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

And some people who do have the co-ordination have a mouse that plays "silly buggers" every now and then, quite possibly due to something nicking all the cpu and starving the computer's mouse driver!

Replacing the mouse isn't always an option - I have a couple of treasured trackballs that are no longer made ...

Cheers,
Wol

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 20:34 UTC (Fri) by kvaml (guest, #61841) [Link] (1 responses)

I realize that this is not a tech support forum, but...

System Settings == gnome-control-center ???
Screen Edges == ???

I have used the gnome-tweak-tool to get most of gnome working OK.

I do hate having a bumped mouse create havoc on my screen when I'm trying to type.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 19, 2017 1:21 UTC (Sat) by MattJD (subscriber, #91390) [Link]

System Settings is indeed like gnome-control-center (at least from last time I played with Gnome, a long time ago).

Screen Edges is one of the control applets inside System Settings. If you use the search functionality, it should point you to the right place.

Note this is all KDE specific. Gnome will have a different way to tweak this.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 2:22 UTC (Fri) by tome (subscriber, #3171) [Link]

That's why I use Xfce; it's just like old GNOME.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 2:45 UTC (Fri) by tome (subscriber, #3171) [Link]

That's why I use Xfce; it's just like old GNOME.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 22:15 UTC (Fri) by luya (subscriber, #50741) [Link]

For your information, Gnome Shell has classic session (default on entreprise distribution like Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7+)

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 12:54 UTC (Thu) by seckford (guest, #118119) [Link] (5 responses)

I've taught a few small classes on embedded systems using Gnome 2.x desktops, to people mostly from a Windows background, and my explanation for the workspace switcher was "See those three boxes on the panel? Those are alternative desktops; click on them with the mouse to switch between them. Your current desktop is the highlighted one." No-one ever had the slightest problem, whether they listened to my explanation or not.

When Gnome 3.x first came out I tried it alongside Ubuntu, and both were unuseable. A year later I tried again, and while Ubuntu was awkward you could get work done, and I kept it as a reserve system. Ubuntu's workspace switcher is pretty inconvenient, and the automatic resizing windows and moving title bars sometimes drive me up the wall, but it does work. I tried the latest Gnome a few weeks back on Fedora, and no, it's still not something I could use.

Seckford

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 14:19 UTC (Thu) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (4 responses)

I can't tell from your message whether your problems with GNOME are related to workspaces, or that's just a jumping off point for a comment on GNOME's usability.

In case it's the former I'll point out that Tweak Tool allows you to set a static number of workspaces rather than using the default dynamic workspace creation. They are laid out linearly instead of a grid, which unfortunately can require extra keystrokes to select the workspace you want, but I doubt it rises to the level of unusable.

Yes, it would be better if this were achievable through the default settings panel rather than requiring a separate app, but it is available (along with a ton of other handy customizations and capabilities) and it does work.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 18:14 UTC (Thu) by ms_43 (subscriber, #99293) [Link] (3 responses)

Once you have static workspaces, you also want keyboard shortcuts to switch to them, which last I looked wasn't possible in any UI (or rather, only possible for the first few desktops with the UI), but it's a shell one-liner to set them to Super+Fn:

for i in $(seq 1 9); do gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.wm.keybindings switch-to-workspace-${i} "[\"<Super>F${i}\"]"; done

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 12:11 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

You used to be able to set that through the UI (I did, including in the 3.x version). Not sure if you can still. You can set loads of keyboard shortcuts in the UI though. E.g. something for custom commands (run gnome-terminal on win+t).

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 13:58 UTC (Fri) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (1 responses)

Perhaps, but I have only 4 static workspaces and I'm satisfied just using CTRL-ALT-<up/down arrow> to scroll through them. Part of the reason this doesn't bother me is that I almost never do serious hacking on a laptop screen: I have a two-screen setup and GNOME's default setting where only one screen scrolls workspaces is perfect: I stick my browser (and, if it's a full monitor not just a laptop, a few other things like IM windows) on the secondary screen that doesn't scroll and leave my work/mail/etc. on the un-pinned workspaces. This way I always have a browser available on every workspace and I only switch workspaces when I want to check my email or similar... and I try to avoid too much context switching when I'm working.

I can't imagine how I could be productive hacking on a small laptop screen but I guess I'm just too old to learn new tricks.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 15:54 UTC (Fri) by seckford (guest, #118119) [Link]

Or very old tricks - the bulk of the software I've written was on 80x25 terminals. OBPython - we used to _dream_ of alternative windows ...

Seckford

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 19, 2017 21:14 UTC (Sat) by mcortese (guest, #52099) [Link] (3 responses)

You got me until this point:

One of the causalities of this change is the elimination of the minimize button. Windows that are minimized don't generate previews in the overlay mode

I added the minimize button through Gnome Tweak Tool and minimized windows do appear in the overlay. If there are sound reasons for not wanting the minimize button in the default setup, this is not one of them.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 31, 2017 6:00 UTC (Thu) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link] (2 responses)

In X or in Wayland? I think that might have been an X problem (or a problem of X at the time).

GNOME turns 20

Posted Sep 3, 2017 23:54 UTC (Sun) by mcortese (guest, #52099) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm running Wayland, so it might have been an issue with X. Yet, I wonder if the lack of a nice preview is a compelling reason to ditch such an important feature...

GNOME turns 20

Posted Sep 4, 2017 21:25 UTC (Mon) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

ISTR Compiz had to use a hack to have previews for minimised windows too. The problem stems from X originally being designed to squeeze out every drop of RAM, so when you minimise windows some toolkits take that as a signal that it's okay to discard the memory of everything they've drawn. Modern software doesn't care much for that kind of efficiency, meaning you might end up with everything accidentally working.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 21:01 UTC (Thu) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link] (2 responses)

What are those usability issues that are solved by the default GNOME behaviour of dynamic workspace columns?

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 5:09 UTC (Fri) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (1 responses)

Mostly that you can't get lost. If you keep scrolling you go through every workspace eventually. But in a 2D grid, if it is 4x4 instead of 3x3 you may miss all of the edges. If you even realize there's a second row below the one you're on.

Also with the dynamic workspaces if you want to open an app in a new workspace it is very easy to add another one to the end. In a 2D grid where should the new one be added?

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 20, 2017 14:55 UTC (Sun) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

If you manage to get lost you're doing something seriously wrong with your workspace use, but there's an overview that will easily be you in this case. Besides, it's possible to configure a grid to wrap around to the next row when overshooting your column, meaning that you get your desired "not getting lost" behaviour.

As far as dynamic workspaces go, yes, you'll inevitably end up having to grow a full dimensional column or row, but to me that's a non-issue. I've never gone beyond 3x3 workspaces at home, 4x3 workspaces at work, and I have a seriously hard time envisioning such a scenario.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 15:00 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

> the extension for it do not work on ubuntu 17.10

Ubuntu 17.10 has not been released. Though you provide so little details and are so extremely vague it could really be anything.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 14:27 UTC (Wed) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (4 responses)

With Portland and Manchester, I was psyched that they seemed to be naming releases after cities in New England. I was disappointed to discover that "Portland" is actually named after the pale imitation in Oregon. :)

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 16, 2017 15:01 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

The names come from where a conference is held. Next year Spain (good weather!!!).

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 2:12 UTC (Thu) by mcatanzaro (subscriber, #93033) [Link] (2 responses)

I regret to disappoint you, but so too the Manchester release will be named after the city in that *other* England: https://2017.guadec.org/

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 7:53 UTC (Thu) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (1 responses)

With this knowledge, I can reply to every bit of recent GNOME bashing with "Oh Manchester, so much to answer for".

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 12:10 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

You mean, like light-bulbs going on? Oh, no, I think that was actually Birmingham 100 miles or so down the road.

Cheers,
Wol

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 17, 2017 19:32 UTC (Thu) by dr_clint_halen (guest, #118125) [Link] (1 responses)

I deleted Gnome five years ago and have never used it again. Gnome is the worst desktop ever created for Linux and is simply retarded. It was usable ten years ago, but then the project was taken over by Clueless Idiots and Chinese Communists. The Gnome Foundation is a joke of "Accessibility" teams removing working features and moving buttons around. As a Computer Scientist and Linux user since 1995, I know Gnome is total garbage. There are much better Linux desktops than Gnome.

No.

Posted Aug 17, 2017 19:59 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I would be the last to argue that GNOME leaves nothing to complain about. But I will say flat-out that this kind of post is simply unacceptable. Do not do this again. No personal attacks on LWN, please.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 18, 2017 1:47 UTC (Fri) by ErikF (subscriber, #118131) [Link] (1 responses)

I've used GNOME since 2.x, and I like it for the most part. I find that there are several things that don't work for me, but so far I have found extensions that make GNOME generally work the way I want it to, which is the point of having a customizable system. The only part that bugs me from time to time is the notification system: programs that do not natively use GTK stick the notification icons in a sliding bar which I'm still not used to (there is an extension that somewhat helps, but it doesn't always work.)

I have an ancient Asus eee701 which does not like GNOME 3 at all, but that's mostly due to it having next to zero horsepower and not being very fast (even when I got it new, it was very sluggish!) For now, it's relegated to hosting some basic network infrastructure at home and running extremely basic graphical environments for the rare times that I need X.

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 19, 2017 15:53 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

I had KDE 4 on one of those netbooks; with a bit of trimming (okay, a lot) it was nice to look at *and* vaguely usable despite the 630MHz. Back then even browsers were tolerable on it.

Wouldn't dare try that with modern-day software, mind. I have a much newer model still in use and had to upgrade the RAM just to run an IM client...

GNOME turns 20

Posted Aug 22, 2017 10:05 UTC (Tue) by suhas2go (guest, #116192) [Link]

I'm a little saddened to see people bashing GNOME here. Being a newbie contributor at GNOME and having interacted with people at GUADEC '17, I've seen the collective effort to keep improving GNOME. I truly believe that GNOME will continue to grow and keep getting better. Happy Birthday, GNOME! :)