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OpenSSL after Heartbleed

OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 2:05 UTC (Fri) by tytso (subscriber, #9993)
In reply to: OpenSSL after Heartbleed by PaXTeam
Parent article: OpenSSL after Heartbleed

As far as I know, the LF/CII is not paying for Kees Cook's work. There are a large number of engineers who are working on the Kernel Self Protection Project, and many of them are sponsored by the employers to do so as part of their day job. To the extent that many of these companies happen to be members of the Linux Foundation is really besides the point. Each of these companies have made their own, rational decision that it is in their best interest to collaborate together to make the upstream kernel better with respect to security.

Similarly, a few words about how the CII works. The CII was fundamentally about large companies getting together to donate money into a common pot to help fund work, that couldn't be done by various member company's own engineers. Again, each of the companies decided that it was in their own self-interest to fund work to make Linux and its core infrastructure more secure. This is probably why you didn't hear back from the LF as a small company. It wasn't worth their time to accept small change funding, when the same amount of time could be used to work with a company who was interested in donating half a million dollars or more.

I suspect that if you took a look at the amount of work that is being done by the KSPP, a very large amount of it is being done by engineers who are funded by their companies to work on these features. More importantly, whether these companies are helping the KSPP by assigning engineers to work on it, or by paying contractors to do various bits of works, what's important is this is simply _more_ security work to make Linux better. It is not within the Linux Foundation's power, or any corporate entity's power, to stop work being done by a volunteer or by an engineer working for another company.

What they _can_ do is work together on a solution that is good enough such that interest in supporting a more proprietary solution is decreased. This may be what is going on with grsecurity; as other says, I don't have enough transparency into the motivations of why grsecurity did what it chose to do. But this also no different from what happened when customers stopped purchasing Sun machines and switched from Solaris to Linux. Was Solaris technically better in some ways? Sure! But there is business value more than just "technical superiority". Once an Open Source operating system was good enough that it would work for companies and their customers, the openness was far more important than small, specific points where Solaris might be technologically superior.

The same is certainly true for grsecurity. There are various reasons why companies have not wanted to base their product on a fork of grsecurity. We can debate what those reasons are, or whether those companies are right in having come to those conclusions, but every company has the right to decide for itself where it wants to put development dollars, just as each volunteer can decide where he or she will devote her volunteer energies. If those companies choose to put their energy behind the KSPP, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it, and it's nothing personal. grsecurity wasn't meeting their needs (and the need is not just absolute security), so they chose to do something else, and to support something else.

I understand that you feel part of the grsecurity community, and so it is easy to feel that this is all a great conspiracy which is somehow evil. That is, I suppose natural, but competition for supporters is a real part of the open source ecosystem. This is something where Linux has won, and NetBSD and Hurd have been, shall we say, less successful at attracting people who might be interested in sponsoring their development work. But again, there was no great conspiracy at work here. Linux was simply better suited for the needs of those companies that chose to support Linux, and to hire Linux developers to work full-time on making Linux better, and the network effect took over from there.

The final thing I will note is that closing off the sources is something that in the long run won't work for the embeeed and IOT market. That's because while grsecurity may have closed off source access on their website, Linux is still open source and under the GPL, which means that they can not prevent their downstream sub-licensees from redistributing the grsecurity changes. So for example, if grsecurity is used in a cell phone, and that cell phone is sold in the stores, anyone can buy the cell phone, request that they get sources to the kernel used in the cell phone, and then they can make it available on their web site. *Nothing* can stop them from doing that; if grsecurity/PaX tried to prohibit this, they would be in violation of the GPL. They could prevent this by choosing not to sell grsecurity to embedded, mobile, or IOT market --- but then (a) they would be cutting off a large segment of their market, and (b) it means, ipso factor, that grsecurity is worthless for those markets, and it becomes yet another reason why all of those companies who are supporting KSPP were right to do so. Montavista tried a similar approach (only making their fork of the kernel available to their direct customers, and no distributing the sources on their web site), but in the long run, that did not prove to be a winning business strategy. I suspect grsecurity/PAX team will find a similar dynamic at work.


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OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 14:20 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (4 responses)

GrSecurity can not directly stop redistribution of their GPL patches. However, they can make it clear that anyone doing so will no longer receive further patches or support.

There are a number of entities with this business model, both around the Linux kernel and other GPL software.

OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 15:23 UTC (Fri) by tytso (subscriber, #9993) [Link] (3 responses)

Sure, but it only works when the subscribers are the end users. It doesn't work if the subscribers are manufacturers of cell phones, or IOT devices, because they are required to give sources if an end-user asks for the sources --- which will include grsecurity.

So for cell phones and IOT devices grsecurity is not the answer. Which is fine, I don't think it ever was the answer, because as a fork, it's not something that could be easily integrated into SOC vendor's fork of the kernel (which are so horrendous that good luck getting them even to build on another architecture; I've had the misfortune having to debug one of these kernels, and never have I seen such a wretch hive of hacks and villainy.)

But it just goes to show that grsecurity is not the answer for millions and millions of Linux systems --- cell phones and IOT devices. The only solution for those devices is KSPP.

OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 15:45 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm glad to hear all the mobile phone and IoT device makers are so scrupulous about publishing the sources to the kernels they use.

GRSecurity can simply not sell patches to any vendors that intend to resell devices with binaries installed though. Simple.

OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 16:37 UTC (Fri) by tytso (subscriber, #9993) [Link]

.... and so GRSecurity is irrelevant to the vast majority, numerically speaking, of the systems and devices running Linux in the world.

This is certainly their right. And if they can make money doing that, fine. But they have made themselves completely irrelevant to Linux upstream development, and mostly irrelevant to the Linux ecosystem as a whole.

OpenSSL after Heartbleed

Posted May 5, 2017 17:59 UTC (Fri) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link]

> I'm glad to hear all the mobile phone and IoT device makers are so scrupulous about publishing the sources to the kernels they use.

Not all are, but some are. Not all care about security, but some do (a bit). I suspect there is a strong positive correlation between those groups. The people who would happily violate the GPL to use grsecurity wouldn't bother using grsecurity anyway, while the people who want to do the right thing can't use grsecurity. (The latter people probably wouldn't have used grsecurity anyway (for various reasons like difficulty integrating with obsolete SoC kernels etc) but now there's even less chance.)


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