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An updated FSF high-priority project list

The Free Software Foundation has reworked its high-priority project list to reflect its view of computing in 2017. See the changelog for a list of the changes that were made. Among other things, the Gnash flash player has fallen off the list. "Smart phones are the most widely used form of personal computer today. Thus, the need for a fully free phone operating system is crucial to the proliferation of software freedom."

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An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 17, 2017 22:56 UTC (Tue) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link]

I wish there was a "talk" page ala wikipedia on why some of those changes were made. It would be interesting to see the rationale on some of the new or removed items.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 17, 2017 23:12 UTC (Tue) by andyc (subscriber, #1130) [Link]

This has some details on the reasoning. https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/a-preliminary-analysi...

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 0:12 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (8 responses)

I think the "voice and video chat" situation is pretty much already solved with WebRTC, depending on the exact scope of the problem you want to solve. We have fully free-software clients (Firefox and Chromium for example) communicating using IETF standards with peer-reviewed crypto and high-quality, unencumbered codecs. For the service part, you can either build a very simple Web app that configures clients to communicate peer to peer, or if you want to scale to larger group sizes with server-side mixing there are also free software solutions for that.

Getting lots of people to actually *use* your service is a different kind of problem. But at least you can make opening a call as simple opening a link in Firefox or Chrome (except for iOS, where you'll need an app for now).

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 0:52 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (6 responses)

Fully free software clients is nice but I don't quite understand how this is supposed to work. How can I talk to someone using Chrome and add them as friends?

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 1:31 UTC (Wed) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

A server is needed, such as Spreed built into Nextcloud, or a Jitsi server.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 2:07 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (4 responses)

Right, that's the service part I was talking about. You can put one together yourself, as I mentioned, or you can use an existing service like https://talky.io/ or https://appear.in/.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 9:14 UTC (Wed) by job (guest, #670) [Link] (1 responses)

People keep talking about https://riot.im/ which I haven't tried yet, but it's supposedly the next big thing in messaging.

It ticks all the boxes, federated open source with good codecs.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 9:30 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Sure, it's based on WebRTC so it inherits that good stuff.

Real time chat/video conferencing.

Posted Jan 18, 2017 13:16 UTC (Wed) by ber (subscriber, #2142) [Link] (1 responses)

To my knowledge appear.in seems to use proprietary software for everything around the webrtc. It would be cool to have a complete Free Software solution.

There is also palava.tv for video chatting and Mumble for voice conferences.

Note that schreensharing and well working group conferences are features that seem lack from the Free Software offerings.

Real time chat/video conferencing.

Posted Feb 26, 2017 14:18 UTC (Sun) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

Yeah, I noticed that too. I do know we're working on screen sharing and video conferences that scale beyond the current 6-12 for spreed in Nextcloud 12 so at least one project will have that gap fixed soon ;-)

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 18, 2017 19:12 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

> Getting lots of people to actually *use* your service is a different kind of problem.

Sounds like a job for GNU. If they ran a service for webRTC then most 'linux-y' people would trust GNU enough to use it even if they are not really big fans of GNU project.

Also it would be a good way to promote their organization, especially if webrtc software (firefox or whatever) starts shipping with 'easily create gnu chat account' by default.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 19, 2017 4:41 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (4 responses)

Hmm, the list is missing a lot of projects, like the open RPi firmware or RISC-V/lowRISC.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 19, 2017 9:20 UTC (Thu) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link] (1 responses)

> RISC-V/lowRISC.

If you mention lowRISC you shouldn't forget those (in order of appearance):

- Onchip's OpenV
http://hackaday.com/2016/11/22/mrisc-v-the-first-open-sou...

- SiFive's HiFve
http://hackaday.com/2017/01/05/hands-on-with-the-first-op...

Both seem to have reached advanced levels of tangibility (silicon/board).

Of course, lowRISC aims much higher (the two above are much "smaller" implementations of RiscV, think Cortex M0, whereas lowRISC aims at SoC level with GPU and things).

Sorry if the above looks like a link farm to Hackaday, but I found that there are the best "collection of links" to follow.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 20, 2017 13:30 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Or you could link to the relevant Crowd Supply pages:

Although the Open-V campaign launched first, it was clearly at a different stage (concept proven with initial silicon) than the HiFive1 product (silicon available, board ready to ship) which rather stole its thunder. For the record, I have no involvement with either of these campaigns: I'm just an interested onlooker.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 21, 2017 10:39 UTC (Sat) by happylemur (subscriber, #95669) [Link] (1 responses)

Some items seem to be lumped together. Raspberry Pi is discussed under drivers, firmware, and hardware.

An updated FSF high-priority project list

Posted Jan 21, 2017 11:09 UTC (Sat) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

The RPi info there is out of date and doesn't link to any of the projects working on liberating the RPi.

http://crna.cc/b/11
http://anholt.livejournal.com/

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 13:49 UTC (Thu) by wx (guest, #103979) [Link] (12 responses)

It's nice to see a free phone OS on the list but is this more than just wishful thinking? Is anyone actually working towards that goal in any serious way right now?

I'm aware of Replicant but I don't think Android derivatives are a viable long term strategy. The sheer size and monolithic design of Android make it extremely difficult to assure secure operation. I'm thinking more along the lines of a traditional Linux distro with fine grained packaging, timely per-package security patches, a layered software stack, etc.

The Jolla folks probably got fairly close to that design but AIUI never followed suit on their open source promises, tragically repeating the mistakes that significantly contributed to the demise of Nokia's Maemo efforts. Jolla also never appeared committed to open hardware/open drivers.

As far as hardware is concerned, I'm inclined to like Fairphone's approach but they're only slowly understanding that sustainable design does not end with hardware. Today's phone hardware can easily last 10+ years but will we continue to receive security updates for such a long time frame?

So, dear LWN readers: Where's the free software phone OS comprised of a lean and mean modern Linux distro and all the latest in security - PaX/grsecurity, SELinux, systemd containers, Wayland, etc. ?

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 15:14 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (4 responses)

Depends what counts as 'serious' in your world. This page catalogs a lot of the different efforts that exist in various areas related to libre mobile clients:

https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 17:14 UTC (Thu) by wx (guest, #103979) [Link] (3 responses)

Excellent question. 'serious' boils down to (a) being an active project (b) targeting hardware that you can buy new and will continue to be available for several years and (c) having any chance of success technologically (primarily w.r.t. drivers, hardware documentation; effectively you need some vendor support).

I believe this should help prevent repeating past mistakes. There have been various mobile Linux efforts. Familiar, OpenMoko, Mer all effectively failed because they did not meet either (b) or (c) and at a glance the same is true for virtually all projects listed on the page you cite (proprietary Android and Cyanogen aside).

Thus, the Fairphone people are probably the ones to talk to. There appears to be interest in running a mainline kernel (https://forum.fairphone.com/t/fp2-compiling-a-blob-free-v...) but no concrete results yet. Booting a minimal Debian with a mainline kernel would probably be a start. Google isn't turning anything up towards that end. Are you aware of any such effort?

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 20, 2017 3:38 UTC (Fri) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

(b) and (c) are simply not feasible.

(b) is not feasible because there is so much churn in the mobile space that by the time you get a device supported by standard GNU/Linux distros or Replicant, it will be multiple generations of phone later.

(c) I wouldn't hold by breath re vendor support, the mobile cycle just moves to fast and there is no incentive to vendors to care about mainlining once devices are released. I think the best we can get is imperfect code dumps that volunteers then clean up and mainline as they can.

OpenMoko existed to sell hardware so I'm not sure why they would have targeted phones from competitors?

From what I have seen of Fairphone, they don't care about software freedom and don't even understand it. They definitely didn't factor in the same aspects of security/software freedom as Replicant would when choosing what to base their devices on. Maybe they have learnt their lesson in recent years though, not sure.

The best supported device in Linux mainline appears to be the Nokia N900, IIRC that is almost entirely done by volunteers. Probably the SoC vendor did the non-device-specific parts though.

The mainlining efforts I'm aware of are the N900, GTA04/Neo900 (ex-OpenMoko folks), Samsung Galaxy S3 (by one of the Replicant folks), an LG device (by another Replicant person) and Sony Xperia (done by Sony). There may be more, not sure.

http://developer.sonymobile.com/2016/02/17/work-on-the-ma...

So I think Sony would be the vendor to work with, not sure how their devices would fair under Replicant's hardware privacy/security criteria though.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 20, 2017 12:42 UTC (Fri) by wx (guest, #103979) [Link]

My understanding was that this is about a new project. About imagining the future. All I'm saying is: If this project is supposed to succeed then it will need to achieve (b) which also requires (c). Whether presently feasible or not does not change that assessment. Either make it happen or the whole thing will fail eventually.

Putting effort into hardware support for discontinued devices is pointless. I've done it myself. It was fun. But also a pointless waste of time.

I don't want to turn this into a marketing campaign for Fairphone. They have made mistakes w.r.t. software freedom. They figured that out the hard way with Fairphone 1. Fairphone 2 is doing much better but isn't perfect yet. They also have yet to live up to their longevity promises but at least they are promising a lifetime of 5 years. If one could arrange for early access to prototype hardware with their next hardware iteration then I believe (b) will be very plausible.

You really need a vendor that shares the vision of hardware longevity. A vendor that doesn't intend to boost sales through planned obsolescence. I don't think Sony is that vendor. Whether Fairphone is that vendor I don't know. The vision they've communicated aligns nicely. Time will tell how much of it will become a reality.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 20, 2017 16:13 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

OpenMoko was the most successful, by far.

Crowd funded open phone platform running Android by default is probably the best approach and most likely for success. It won't be anything remotely competitive to anything you can buy in the store. Bulkier, more expensive, and less performance.

Hell I would be happy with a cellular network add-on for some of the more popular OSHW compliant Arm boards.

If people want to then throw on their favorite QT-based environment (or whatever) then it should be pretty trivial.

From GNU's perspective the most useful thing they could do that would have the largest most immediate benefit would be to help develop a Free software alternative to Gapps APIs.

Nearly 100% Free Software Android is available, right now, on a variety of phones. They'll have unfree drivers for hardware and the hardware will be closed, but otherwise not too bad. The part that gets weak is that without proprietary Google add-ons a few APIs are missing. It doesn't impact the basic functions of the phone, but it does impact things like location services.

https://github.com/microg is one such effort at creating free alternatives to the Gapps apis.

This will probably also help out the 'anything but android' crowd create decent compatibility with Android apps.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 17:00 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (6 responses)

The perfect phone/distro doesn't currently exist, that's why it's in the high priority list :-)

Here's one thing RMS mentioned in a recent fundraiser:

"All commercial mobile phones require proprietary software (in the modem processor that talks to the phone radio network) that has a universal back door: it can be changed remotely through the radio. (...) With funds, the FSF could develop a mobile phone that encapsulates the modem processor so as to make the phone, in a limited sense, safe to use."

https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/a-message-from-rms-support-the-free-software-foundation

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 19:21 UTC (Thu) by wx (guest, #103979) [Link] (2 responses)

> The perfect phone/distro doesn't currently exist, that's why it's in the high priority list :-)

Right, yeah, that last sentence of mine was poorly worded. I hadn't meant to ask for something complete. Any effort "working towards that goal" as detailed above would be interesting to me.

> "All commercial mobile phones require proprietary software (in the modem processor that talks to the phone radio network) that has a universal back door: it can be changed remotely through the radio. (...) With funds, the FSF could develop a mobile phone that encapsulates the modem processor so as to make the phone, in a limited sense, safe to use."

Wow, just wow, I hadn't realized just how deep within wishful thinking territory the FSF really was here. For that to work the phone would need to have a separate baseband processor to begin with. That's how smart phone designs were done ten years ago. Today you probably won't even find silicon operating that way. Also, why worry about hypothetical back doors when the front door is wide open?

This is another lesson we should learn from OpenMoko. Fear of back doors expressed by a small but very vocal minority caused OpenMoko to waste a lot of resources on open drivers for non-essential hardware such as the GPS chip rather than writing a minimal, but perfectly reliable dialer so people could use the phone as a, you know, phone and so OpenMoko would actually sell handsets in numbers to keep things commercially viable.

I wish the FSF all the best with their fund raising but the phone part reads too much like an empty promise to lure people into donating money. In that sense I'm trying to avoid repeating my own past mistakes. When Google announced Android I thought mobile Linux was essentially a solved problem. Boy was I wrong.

If we want any tangible results I believe we'll need to take matters into our own hands. Mainlining driver support for e.g. the Fairphone 2 seems like the most plausible avenue to me right now. And I'm afraid some of the regulars over here are much more likely to make that happen than the FSF.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 19, 2017 23:49 UTC (Thu) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (1 responses)

> some of the regulars over here are much more likely
> to make that happen than the FSF

Which is great. And FSF probably spotted this and realise that what they could fund would not be a game changer.

For funding development of a phone, I don't know, maybe they know of a project whose direction they could influence, and which looks like it otherwise won't get done.

They're careful with money.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 20, 2017 3:39 UTC (Fri) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

Personally I think the only long-term solution in mobile is a non-profit that would be massively crowdfunded by people who want their Android devices security supported. That would then gather reverse engineers and kernel devs to work on reverse-engineering, rewriting, mainlining and forward-porting vendor bootloader/kernel codebases. Then LineageOS could provide the updates for the rest of the Android system on those devices and the GNU/Linux distros could start supporting mobile.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 20, 2017 23:22 UTC (Fri) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link] (2 responses)

The hardware and driver side is an unsolved problem indeed. In Plasma Mobile, we're struggling with this as well. Right now, the only viable choice to get Plasma running on a mobile phone that people can actually buy is to build on top of an Android base and go through libhybris. It ends up being a pretty painful process, with lots of problems in hardware details that may or may not work, with the solution often being in the hands of hardware vendors that simply don't care, because for them, the numbers don't add up in the time-frames they're looking at.

The rest of the stack suffers from a lack of interest. I think that a community-developed project is exactly what's needed. With Plasma Mobile's stack above these hardware issues, we can share most of the code between different devices and make them work well together, and with the right set of priorities in mind, in a transparent process, open standards and open source code. What we need is a more people actually joining in, making hardware work, help us on the code, design, ideas, concepts, bugs, infrastructure, support, developers that make their applications work, and people that "simply" participate in solving the problems we're facing.

The situation in the past two years hasn't been looking good, more and more promising projects are suffering from serious structural problems, are being shut down or admitting defeat. Firefox OS, Jolla, Ubuntu Phone, CyanogenMod all haven't taken on or are already out of existence. In that sense, I think we're worse off from a Free software point of view than we were two years ago. Even Windows Phone is essentially dead. Plasma Mobile isn't, and we've been working on making it a functional platform, but with the current level of resources invested by everyone, it's not enough. This could change, and I'm hopeful that the we can do a good enough job showing that it isn't just a far-away pipe-dream to have phones that actually get us back into control of privacy, security, support and the general technical direction, but that we need people that step up and help us do the work to bring it to a good enough state that phone vendors and carriers that offer phones can ship devices like these. It's not impossible, but it's not an easy or quick problem to solve. It needs some serious commitment by the right people.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 21, 2017 5:35 UTC (Sat) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

I would encourage you to get Plasma Mobile packaged for Fedora, Debian, Gentoo, Mageia and the other community based Linux distributions. Having a great UI might encourage folks to port Linux to more devices and do reverse engineering of the blobs.

Wishful thinking?

Posted Jan 23, 2017 10:42 UTC (Mon) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link]

That's exactly my point: We do not lack people who encourage us to do something. We do not lack project managers. We do lack people who are willing to get their hands dirty, who scratch their own itch. Quite simply, we have enough places that would greatly enhance our outreach, and packaging / integration in the distribution is simply lower on the list than having at least one working prototype, well integrated, and being able to develop software for at all. No use putting work into packaging for 5 different distros when that means that we don't have time left to actually work on the code.


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