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Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

By Nathan Willis
August 17, 2016

GUADEC

GnuPG maintainer Werner Koch presented the Sunday keynote at GUADEC 2016 in Karlsruhe, Germany. He used the session to push back against the present trends in Internet architecture, which he called a reversion to the centralization of the mainframe computing era.

Network evolution

The talk began with a quick history lesson. In the early days, computers were all custom-built machines of which there were but a few, and all of them resided in laboratories. Importantly, there was no communication between machines. Standardization efforts in the 1960s (beginning with IBM's System/360) made it possible to communicate between machines, but only by physically transporting [Werner Koch] paper punch cards from one to another. The only networks of computers were those for large projects like NASA's moon program and the civil aviation infrastructure.

"In the Seventies, things got more interesting with the 'minis'," he said. Physically smaller machines like the PDP8 meant that smaller groups could share a machine, which led to Thompson and Ritchie's development of Unix. Networking at that time relied on leased lines and used store-and-forward protocols like UUCP. Then, with the advent of TCP/IP, he said, came the really interesting developments. The proliferation of PCs and workstations meant a lot more networked communication was needed, so new protocols followed.

But the Eighties were marked by a competition between the centralized mainframe model and the decentralized Unix model. Ethernet and local-area networks allowed PC and workstation vendors to offer stiff competition, but mainframe companies had their successes as well. It was only the invention of the World Wide Web in the Nineties that broke the stalemate permanently, he said. There was no longer any denying that having all machines interconnected was the best approach—and the web at that point was fully decentralized; anyone with an IP address could run a server.

And, of course, many people did, which led to the search-engine industry. Before Google, AltaVista was the dominant search engine and indexed everything on the web. But this millennium, after the dotcom bubble burst, things changed. The most important change, Koch said, was that search engines stopped being in the "search" business, which is to say that they stopped existing to point users to information elsewhere.

Instead, they shifted into the "user profiling" business. The search engine became a central place for information, rather than a portal to somewhere else. That led to the engines filtering the information they return on a per-user basis, storing user data centrally, and retrieving information from the users themselves.

Search engines are certainly not alone in the user-profiling game (other notable players include social-media services), Koch added, but the crux is that the Internet has shifted back to a model where there are just a few sites that host information, and users connect to them directly. Ultimately, he said, these services "trick the users into believing there is an Internetwork, but in reality users are connecting to a few data centers." It is more like CompuServe and similar dial-up services from the Eighties than it is the original World Wide Web.

The state of services

Koch then examined the most popular network services of today and pointed out ways in which recent changes have returned users to a dependence on centralized servers.

The first he looked at was the web. Most sites today run JavaScript programs on the user's browser, but those sites increasingly use JavaScript served up from a central service rather than hosting it locally. As a consequence, the site does not function without the services of api.google.com or some other server; offline usage no longer works, and users not using JavaScript lose access to content.

Even more troubling is the fact that server security certificates are no longer stored locally on users' machines. Instead, they are stored within the browser itself and they are updated at will by Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Mozilla. While this development was a necessity caused by the failed certificate authority model, it is still harmful. The browsers "phone home" regularly, and what is in theory a decentralized service is, in practice, fully centralized. The solution, he said, is for server operators to host their own JavaScript—or avoid it altogether.

Email is older than the web, so its design is older, too. It is fully decentralized and resistant to disruptions in connectivity for hours or even days at a time. This is because email was designed from the start to support multiple routing options. But, today, most email really goes through only a few providers (primarily Google). The practical problem is that these providers impose rules (such as server blacklisting and disabling Sender Policy Framework support) that interfere with others' ability to run their own services. The alleged reason for this is to stop spam but, Koch said, that is not true. Large-scale analysis by the mail services makes it easier to detect and block spam, without hampering interoperability. The solution is simply for users to host their own mail on their own boxes, he said. "Take back your mailbox."

The keyservers that support GnuPG and other OpenPGP implementations are another service that has slipped away from decentralization. Originally, keyservers were a loosely coupled network of independent machines. There have been moves toward a centralized design using services like keyserver.net and pgp.com, although most have failed. Today, the new attempt is Keybase.io, which many users like for its convenience (linking PGP keys to social media accounts). But it fundamentally violates the end-to-end privacy principle of PGP by binding keys to privacy-invading services. Periodically, he said, proposals pop up to implement "validating" PGP keyservers—but none of them work in a decentralized fashion. He urged users to stand up against all attempts to centralize PGP.

Finally, he looked at federation in general. Mail servers have more and more difficulty interoperating, he said, and XMPP has "lost its track" and is being replaced by centralized systems like WhatsApp and Signal. He encouraged developers to make federation a priority and to design for it from the beginning.

The state of the desktop

Koch then looked at desktop environments—although, he said, "I mainly have questions." These days, he continued, online services are constantly on our (and our users') minds. But developers need to be asking themselves how hard it will be to get rid of the data that has been relayed to these services. Similarly, desktop projects need to ask whether or not users can effectively use their system when offline. "If the network goes out, can you still work with your data?"

He pointed out a few network services essential to desktop projects like GNOME, starting with package updates. Who is in control of the update channel, he asked? Are the updates properly signed, and is the update system easy to use? Can the desktop be used on an air-gapped computer, with "swapping around USB sticks" as the only available method to access files?

There are positive signs that some network services take decentralization seriously, he said, like the Briar mesh network and the GNUnet peer-to-peer network. Desktops and other projects should support use of these types of services, he said. The online connections you have are not under your control, he concluded; you must be prepared for their disruptions and not find yourself relying on an Internet of centralized services.

In the brief question-and-answer period at the end of the talk, Koch added that he thinks SMTP needs to be replaced (and that it will be, eventually), but that none of the proposed replacements has so far solved the spam problem. That makes them non-starters, even if they improve on other features, like "trust on first use" encryption.

He also responded to a question about the use of JavaScript and remote services for other applications (specifically, for GNOME Maps and its remote map tile service support). JavaScript is acceptable for some applications, he said, but not where a user's personal data is involved. There are good alternatives to webmail, he said, such as Mailpile, and almost all of the page styling people do with JavaScript today could also be done using CSS.

Koch told another audience member that isolating browser tabs in separate processes improves on security, but that it does not solve the webmail problem because users must still place trust in their browser. He thinks it likely that GnuPG will see progress on convincing applications to support end-to-end encryption, but even then, "that doesn't solve the infrastructure problem. Someone has to set it all up."

Koch stayed after the session and answered questions for a number of people about GnuPG and security. The talk itself had other benefits, including re-igniting a discussion over how GNOME should address security and privacy. That discussion continued in the lightning talks, unconference sessions, and birds-of-a-feather days; more information from those meetings is still to come.

[The author would like to thank the GNOME Foundation for travel assistance to attend GUADEC 2016.]

Index entries for this article
SecurityInternet
SecurityPrivacy
ConferenceGUADEC/2016


to post comments

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 9:21 UTC (Thu) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] (70 responses)

The solution is simply for users to host their own mail on their own boxes

That is not really a feasible solution for most people. It requires setting up an always-on (or "mostly-on") server with a public address. Apart from being technically challenging for most non-IT people, it also requires a peaceful spot with a good net connection for the server, or else paying for a virtual host, which costs something like $15/month for even a low-end option.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 11:18 UTC (Thu) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link] (9 responses)

Many (most?) „normal“ people already own a machine that is turned on and connected to the Internet 16 to 24 hours per day. Their ISP may not like them turning it into a server, though.

And if the IoT hype is only half true, we will soon be surrounded by stuff that is capable of running a mail server (and capable of being a spam source, no less).

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 19:46 UTC (Thu) by reedstrm (guest, #8467) [Link] (6 responses)

> Many (most?) „normal“ people already own a machine that is turned on and connected to the Internet 16 to 24 hours per day. Their ISP may not like them turning it into a server, though.

Haven't you followed the trends? Desktop computer sales are going the way of the land-line phone. Most "normal" people are using a large phone, a tablet, and/or at most a laptop for their computing needs. The thing most likely to be on and internet connected is their game/entertainment console, since the "off" button on those is really only a "sleep". Should that be running email?

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 20:26 UTC (Thu) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (5 responses)

Their phone is a computer that's turned on and connected to the internet 24 hours a day (except when in tunnels or flying, I suppose), so they can run the mail server on that.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 23:37 UTC (Thu) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link] (3 responses)

Your home router would be sufficient to run a basic mail server, wouldn't it?

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 23:58 UTC (Thu) by Jonno (subscriber, #49613) [Link] (2 responses)

> Your home router would be sufficient to run a basic mail server, wouldn't it?

Not really, most home routers lack the storage necessary to host even a single mailbox. My personal IMAP server serving 4 people uses 2.4 GiB of storage, while most home routers feature 4-128 MiB of storage.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 3:14 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link] (1 responses)

All but the most basic home routers have one or more USB ports nowadays.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 13:30 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Running spamassassin on a home router could be a bit challenging, though, even if you get past the storage issue. SA can be a bit of a hog...

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 6:08 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

Their phone is a computer that's turned on and connected to the internet 24 hours a day [...]

Not sure if it is sensible to run an important server on a device that can be lost, stolen, or dropped and crushed under a bus. In many places, the cost of mobile data would also be a problem.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 12:08 UTC (Mon) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

I guess less and less people (at least in the first world) have those machines turned on and connected. And even of those who have it - how many have fault tolerant setups? Multiple disks in RAID, regular backups in safe location, etc? One wouldn't want to lose 2 years of e-mails due to an untimely black out or bad sectors on an HDD. I'm not arguing it's impossible to achieve - but it is complicated and costly.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 13:20 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> I'm not arguing it's impossible to achieve - but it is complicated and costly.

I've been self-hosted for nearly 20 years now. It started out pretty simple, but over time, not so much.

Keeping my mail services going doesn't require much attention (or money) on an ongoing basis, but starting from scratch today is another matter.

On a pure cost basis, I've paid a lot less to self-host email than I'd have paid to 3rd party providers, especially given that the hardware (and bandwidth) cost is shared with other stuff I would still have to self-host.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 11:52 UTC (Thu) by guus (subscriber, #41608) [Link] (15 responses)

A personal server running an email server, website, IRC etc. does not require much. Something like a BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi is more than enough to do this, the hardware cost is around $50 and will last many years. These single board computers use very little energy, putting it out of sight and having it run 24/7 should be no problem.

A fixed domain name and a public (but not necessarily static) IP address is required. I don't know how easy that is. In the EU, you usually get a public IPv4 address with your cable/xDSL, although normally you have to pay extra to get a fixed IP address. You can get dyndns service for free, or pay $10 to $15 a year for a domain name (I can recommend Gandi). But the problem is usually that even if you have a public IP address, some ports are blocked, notably incoming traffic to port 25 (SMTP). Many DNS providers however usually have some form of email forwarding service, that comes for free with a domain name, that you can use to get around this problem.

Of course, if you are behind a carrier-grade NAT or can't/won't run a server at home, there is indeed the option of using a VPS. For VPSes, the main cost drivers are memory (both RAM and disk storage) and IPv4 addresses. You can do a lot with a VPS with only 256 MB RAM and a few GB of storage, but indeed you won't find much lower than $15/month if you want your own IPv4 address. But there are also so-called NAT VPSes, where you share an IP address with many other VPSes. You have some statically assigned ports that you can use, but of course not the ones you want to use (25, 80, 443). They usually do provide forwarding services though, so you can tell them which domain you use for email, and you point your MX to their servers, and they'll have the email forwarded to your VPS. The same goes for websites. These NAT VPSes are available for $10 a year.

As always, the problem is human nature. While it is perfectly possible and not even that hard to set up your own infrastructure, most people do not want to deal with it at all and will just go for the easiest solution. There are projects like FreedomBox that try to make it as easy as possible to have your own infrastructure running on a small computer, but even that is too difficult.

But the main problem is not the non-tech-savvy people, it's actually that a lot of tech-savvy people even do not want to take a little bit of time to set such a thing up. Yes, it takes some time to configure things the first time, but it is certainly not hard. Once set up, it takes very little maintenance. And you'll have learned some things while doing it that might even enhance your CV.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 0:35 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (3 responses)

> While it is perfectly possible and not even that hard to set up your own infrastructure

It's very hard and shockingly time-intensive to run your own mail server, even for tech-savvy people familiar with system administration and networking. I switched my mail server to mail-in-a-box because I just couldn't keep up with the ongoing changes to SPF, DKIM, DNSSEC, RBLs, and software upgrades. And all that is on top of monitoring the server's logs and send failures (Yahoo, you really suck).

And I don't even bother with webmail! Providing a more complete experience with server-side contacts, mobile clients, custom filters, 2factor, automatic expiry, a proper Sent Mail folder, reactive spam filtering, etc... Good luck with that. You'll never finish, no matter how much time you can sink into it.

If you run your own mail server, pray tell your setup?

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 7:36 UTC (Fri) by guus (subscriber, #41608) [Link] (1 responses)

Wow, I have a very different experience maintaining my own services...

> If you run your own mail server, pray tell your setup?

I am running Postfix, with Postgrey to do greylisting. Postgrey is already doing 50% of the spam filtering. I used to use RBLs, which were even more effective, but unfortunately the most useful ones shut down. The rest of the spam filtering is done with Spamassassin, but that is started by individual user's mail filters. Spamassassin is also quite effective, and when it lets something true it is a single press of a button in mutt to let Spamassassin learn that an email is spam.

> I just couldn't keep up with the ongoing changes to SPF, DKIM, DNSSEC, RBLs,

Apart from some useful RBLs disappearing, and having to set SPF records on my mail domain names once, I don't seem to need to keep up with anything, at least not more than once in half a year or so. I also don't have to monitor the logs. The few times I do it's mostly because something is stuck in the greylist and that normally solves itself by being more patient.

> And I don't even bother with webmail! Providing a more complete experience with server-side contacts, mobile clients, custom filters, 2factor, automatic expiry, a proper Sent Mail folder, reactive spam filtering, etc...

Hm, maybe this is the difference? I have the mail delivered to a Maildir, and use mutt to read it directly from there. I'm not running an IMAP or webmail server to access it. If I want to access my email remotely, I just SSH into the server.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 8:03 UTC (Fri) by mbunkus (subscriber, #87248) [Link]

SPF can be easy to set up and use, but it can also be a major pain in the rear end. For example, are you posting on mailing lists? If so there are several pitfalls you need to be aware of. Mailing list managers usually forward the mail keeping the original sender intact. This breaks SPF as there's now an email from you originating from a very different server than what the SPF contains.

There are several ways to deal with this, e.g. the mailing list manager can send from "Your Name via Mailing List <mailing-list-manager-address@domain>" instead of your address. But a lot of mailing lists don't support such a feature or aren't configured for it.

Another way would be for you to include the outgoing mail servers used by those mailing lists in your own SPF record.

The problems don't stop with mailing lists which you might not even use. Even worse are cases you cannot do anything about such as when a receiver has set up forwarding on the mail server level.

Think of Postfix' virtual alias maps. For example, on the main mail server for $customer the $customer has set up a forwarding to a private account with something like "jdoe@custom.er jdoe@custom.er,john.doe@googlemail.com". What now happens when you send to jdoe@custom.er is: 1. $customer's mail server may check your SPF record and see that it's good. 2. $customer's mail server stores one copy and forwards a second copy to Google Mail. 3. Google Mail checks your SPF record (because the sender of said email is still you) and see that the server the mail originates from ($customer's server) is not listed in your SPF record.

That second mail is now silently stored in Google's spam folder, and there's nothing you can do about it. You're at the mercy of everyone else setting up their forwardings in a way that's SPF compliant.

The error reporting is pretty bad, too. For the example above you might only note there's something wrong when $customer comes to you and says "hey, your mails are all marked as spam!"

The situation gets even more complicated when you add DKIM to the mix. Similar problems arise. Basically both schemes rely on everyone having their systems set up correctly, which is a practical impossibility.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 20, 2016 5:20 UTC (Sat) by gfa (guest, #53331) [Link]

+1 to mail-in-a-box I use it to run my second personal domain :)

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 6:03 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] (3 responses)

A personal server running an email server, website, IRC etc. does not require much. [...]

Actually, I agree getting started is not necessarily hard, but that is really only a part of the problem. Others in the thread have pointed out problems with ensuring delivery, and keeping out of spam filters. I would add the constant maintenance burden of keeping the system up to date and safe. I used to rent a virtual host to play with, and was amazed at the constant barrage of break-in attempts I saw in the logs. None succesful, as far as I know, but that is mainly because I had no services running, apart from ssh. I realized that if I ran something interesting on the server, I would have to dedicate some time every day, 7 days a week to check for anomalies and ensure the kernel and servers have security patches applied. As I hadn't time for that, and had no particular projects in mind at the time, I gave up with that virtual server.

The "typical user" would probably forget about his private mail server as long as it worked somehow, meaning it would eventually be doing hidden work for others than him, and/or spying on his mail. Home routers and IoT devices clearly have a similar "negligence problem", but they are usually more limited than the mail server would be. But I'm pretty sure a significant number of home routers are currenly pwned and part of malware networks. Most users never update their software, and none of the models I have used have automatic updating.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 6:10 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

My friend (semi-)jokingly suggested a service like "Dollar Shave Club" that will periodically mail new updated routers to users with return postage for their "expired" routers.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 7:57 UTC (Fri) by guus (subscriber, #41608) [Link] (1 responses)

> I would add the constant maintenance burden of keeping the system up to date and safe.

Then I would really suggest you use a distribution that automates this for you as much as possible.
I'm running Debian stable with the unattended-upgrades package installed.

If I look in the logs, I also see attacks everyday. However, SSH (coupled with something like denyhosts) and Postfix stand up very well against them. I've only had a break-in once, and that was because I had a user on the server that had a common nickname and unfortunately had used a very weak password. I never had any break-in through a bug in a daemon in the ~18 years or so that I've been running my own mail/web/IRC/shell server. I'd like to chalk that up to the automatic updates.

Maybe I'm just lucky? I don't know. But I still think you should at least try to set up your own infrastructure if you have the possibility.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Sep 5, 2016 13:33 UTC (Mon) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497) [Link]

I had one breakin via ElasticSearch _despite_ using unattended upgrades, because the ElasticSearch packagers decided that upgrading a package shouldn't restart the service automatically.

(I filed a bug. It was closed as WONTFIX.)

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 19:48 UTC (Fri) by Felix (guest, #36445) [Link]

> You can do a lot with a VPS with only 256 MB RAM and a few GB of storage, but indeed you won't find much lower than $15/month if you want your own IPv4 address.

Not sure if I took your statement out of context but at least in Europe a VPS (KVM based) with a public ipv4 IP (+ IPv6 of course) is a lot cheaper than USD 15 per month. For example a VM with 1 CPU core, 1 GB RAM + 25 GB storage costs about USD 5,25 at Hetzner. OVH is even cheaper than that (although with less storage included).

I would advise against sending mail directly from any "dial up" account (even with a fixed ip address). These are *very* likely blocked by the big mail providers. Delivering email to big providers is not trivial but as a start you pretty much need an IP address inside a "real" data centre.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 19:41 UTC (Mon) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link] (5 responses)

I use https://www.kimsufi.com/en/ where one gets a dedicated server on real hardware (not VPS) with fixed IPv4 for 5 Euro/month.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 20:44 UTC (Mon) by lsl (subscriber, #86508) [Link] (4 responses)

What about IPv6? Their website is awfully quiet about that. Some resources refer to getting a *single* v6 address with one of the cheap Atom servers. Do you happen to know if the offered VMs have any IPv6 connectivity at all?

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 21:15 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (3 responses)

It appears[1] that all their dedicated servers get a single IPv6 address (/128), from the $5/mo. Atom up to the $25/mo. Xeon 2xE5504. I'm not sure why they would go to that much trouble dealing out individual addresses when they could easily give each server a /64, if not a /48. Perhaps they're trying to propagate the address-scarcity business model which IPv6 has rendered more or less obsolete. They can get away with that in the short term, in the absence of any real competition.

[1] https://www.kimsufi.com/en/servers.xml

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 21:47 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (2 responses)

Maybe because -- currently -- anyone who wants a single low-powered server with thousands of IP addresses is probably up to no good.

Will be interesting to see if this changes.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 23, 2016 4:19 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Maybe because -- currently -- anyone who wants a single low-powered server with thousands of IP addresses is probably up to no good.

I expect that the various blacklists that currently work on individual IPv4 addresses will eventually start tracking /64 blocks for IPv6, since that is the smallest block which is intended to be assigned to an end user. At that point having all your server customers sharing a single /64 will be a liability, even if they only use one address each. Any one of them misbehaves (or is simply misconfigured) and all your them end up on the blacklist together.

Also, you might not need "thousands" of IP addresses for a single low-end server, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to use at least a couple of them to run multiple instances of the same service on a standard port, or to give a container its own public address.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 27, 2016 18:18 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

>Maybe because -- currently -- anyone who wants a single low-powered server with thousands of IP addresses is probably up to no good.

Or simply wants "net.ipv6.conf.all.use_tempaddr=2" to work, so that people up to no good in the same server rack can't trivially correlate an outgoing request to http://distro.example.net/security-backports/ with an nmappable IP…

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 13:23 UTC (Thu) by jrigg (guest, #30848) [Link] (4 responses)

> The solution is simply for users to host their own mail on their own boxes

Another reason this isn't a feasible solution for most is that the large web mail providers are increasingly rejecting any mail that doesn't come from their own or another large provider's servers. I run my own server hosted in a large data centre in London. It's not on any blacklist that I've checked, but I've had to resort to using web mail much of the time. The mail I send from my own server is typically received by the destination server but then disappears silently before reaching the addressee's inbox. I've seen comments from others around the web that suggest this is not uncommon.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 3:21 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link] (3 responses)

You probably don't have SPF, DKIM, etc. configured?

Google, Hotmail, etc. will happily accept without errors and then drop your mail if you don't have them configured.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 19, 2016 3:47 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (2 responses)

Yahoo will often drop your mail even if they're set up perfect. Hotmail isn't quite as bad. Gmail is pretty decent as long as you have already authenticated your domain with them.

Still, if you don't send much mail, and someone marks one of your messages spam, your entire domain can get in trouble quick. Good luck getting back off their secret blacklists.

Deliverability is hard!

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 20, 2016 5:20 UTC (Sat) by gfa (guest, #53331) [Link]

I found that 2 - 3 years ago was almost impossible to deliver emails to gmail and hotmail from IP address in Argentina and Japan.
I had to send all my mail for those domains to the US before submit to hotmail/gmail.

After 1 - 2 years of continue usage of the Japan server gmail/hotmail started to take our emails, I'd say you need to do your homework (SPF, DKIM. PTR records, etc) and wait some time, people sending big volumes of email do something similar called IP warming.

I'm not talking about big volumes, 10 - 20 emails/day, an small company and personal email servers. SPF, DKIM, PTR records, etc.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 25, 2016 11:33 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Yahoo will often drop your mail even if they're set up perfect. Hotmail isn't quite as bad. Gmail is pretty decent as long as you have already authenticated your domain with them.

I'm on Freegle (the UK version of Freecycle). I use a throwaway yahoo address, because Freegle are hosted on yahoo. Yet ALL my freegle mail is spambinned :-(

I use thunderbird, so I just tell it to download the spambin every day or so, but it's bl**dy annoying. AND YOU CAN'T TURN THE DAMN SPAMFILTER OFF!!! This account receives no spam whatsoever, which means the spam-filter is scoring a 100% ham-hit :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 16:39 UTC (Mon) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link] (38 responses)

To be clear, Koch did not say "...and doing so is currently easy."

Making it easy remains an important problem space, and his references to projects like Mailpile demonstrate that he's aware work needs doing.

Nate

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 0:45 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (37 responses)

to be clear, I still think the overriding factor in the development of personal mailserver appliances is the unfortunate situation involving most residential ISPs prohibiting the operation of servers via their 'internet' products. If, for example, tomorrow the FCC came out and said that all such prohibitions by terms of service were void because home server traffic was just as 'neutral' in the eyes of the internet as gmail's, then I think we would just about instantaneously see the rapid advancement of making home email server usage as trivial as using and maintaining a toaster. (not the fancy toaster oven varieties, I mean the basic plain two slice one slider button variety). And this is due to the economics of software develpment and widespread platform availability (or lackthereof as the case may be). Personally what motivates me as a developer of such tools, is being able to say to any and all of my friends that you can use them fully legally, without paying more for a 'business class' ISP connection that allows servers. I'm actually very demotivated to develop software that only the top-tier lexus lane subscribers are allowed to utilize (without clearly violating a business contract).

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 0:58 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (36 responses)

> If, for example, tomorrow the FCC came out and said that all such prohibitions by terms of service were void because home server traffic was just as 'neutral' in the eyes of the internet as gmail's, then I think we would just about instantaneously see the rapid advancement of making home email server usage as trivial as using and maintaining a toaster.
There are no such limitations in countries like Russia or France. Yet nobody runs home servers.

It's quite simple - running a home server requires A LOT of work to do backups, provide uninterrupted power and so on. Why would you want to do that?

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 6:34 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (9 responses)

I'm not going to take that as a legitimate question in this forum of all places. There are literally countless reasons why people would want to operate servers connected to the internet. Wow.

Perhaps you just did a horrible job of making the point that there are also countless reasons to choose not to operate a server from home. But most of us here have the basic understanding of what a server is generally and what it might be useful for.

One very specific reason to operate a mail server at home in the U.S. is because at least historically (still?) there was some law (that the NSA must have known was horrific all along but kept silent about) stating that email left on a remote server more than 60 or 180 days was granted a lesser status than 4th ammendment 'papers'. Not to mention how generally the 'third party doctrine' involving the third party servers gives less legal privacy protection to data than if it physically resides in your home. AFAIUI data on a computer in your physical residence has always enjoyed the strictest possible 4th amendment protections.

The next most noteworthy reason I would add, would be to exercise free speech on the internet, without being under the auspices of any unnecessary gatekeeper. E.g. the person who should decide what speech of mine is publishable on the internet is me, not an employee of twitter or google. Obviously if I publish a bounty on someone's head, the police should pay attention to it, or anybody that complains about it and come and arrest me. But if I want to publish a video of me burning in a fireplace some book I legally purchased, I ought to be able to do that, even if it offends an entire religion.

It seems to me that in order for free speech to exist in any meaningful way on the internet, all endpoints must not be forbidden from operating servers. Otherwise we see things approaching the old ways where massive corporations were the ultimate gatekeepers deciding which speech was published and to how wide an audience. In this day and age, every ordinary internet user ought to be able to decide that something they have to say and want published to world is able to be published to the world. The simplest way I know how to do that is to host my own LAMP server. I don't see another way realistically.

I don't know about other countries, but with Russia's recent history of oppression of journalism, I doubt there are many people interested in pushing free speech boundaries from there. I'm not saying the U.S. is some free speech panacea. In fact, I kind of get the feeling that keeping the power of home server operation out of the hands of the masses is precisely how establishment forces in the U.S. maintain much of their power in the face of the 'disruptive' technology of the internet.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 28, 2016 6:51 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Keep in mind that most people extensively document their lives on publicly available Facebook pages...

> I don't know about other countries, but with Russia's recent history of oppression of journalism, I doubt there are many people interested in pushing free speech boundaries from there.
My point is that there's nobody in Russia forbidding you to run your own mail server. Yet pretty much nobody does.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 21:39 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (7 responses)

You can lease a great 'endpoint' for $3.50/month. That's probably less than you would spend if you ran a server in your own house, and much much MUCH more reliable.

You claim there are countless reasons to run your own server and it's so easy... so why isn't everyone doing it?

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 23:50 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (6 responses)

I'm guessing your $3.50 endpoint plan involves free speech limiting terms of service, and ultimately, more computers along the communication path between you and your intended audience. I of course understand that in a great many engineering cost tradeoff equations, those issues are not going to be decisive factors. But from a free speech policy perspective, I think it's quite important to acknowledge that in some of those situational tradeoff equations, those things matter a lot.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 3:06 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (5 responses)

> I'm guessing your $3.50 endpoint plan involves free speech limiting terms of service,

What does that even mean? Do you or don't you want to run a mail server? Because obviously that's allowed by the TOS.

Since you're advocating running a server at home, what do you think of your internet provider's TOS? I doubt it's any better.

> more computers along the communication path between you and your intended audience.

um... Have you ever run traceroute?

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 4:03 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (4 responses)

> I'm guessing your $3.50 endpoint plan involves free speech limiting terms of service,

What does that even mean? Do you or don't you want to run a mail server? Because obviously that's allowed by the TOS.
It means that I was speculating as to which service your $3.50 plan was. Having to speculate, I presumed something like, oh lets just say AWS/linode/whatever. I'm guessing AWS, and I recall linode, have many pages of terms of service as part of renting a virtual server from them. I'm guessing amongst those pages of ToS are various catch all clauses that reserve for them the right to cease doing business with you, if for instance you engage in extremely controversial free speech (e.g. flag/bible burning videos). But by all means, lets end the speculation- which specific $3.50 service are you talking about?
Since you're advocating running a server at home, what do you think of your internet provider's TOS? I doubt it's any better.
Yes, that is sort of what this entire debate from my side has been about. My belief remains that the FCC's Network Neutrality uses the right language to foster the internet as a platform for free speech (not letting the network provider favor one type of usage over another, at least anything based on type of speech, i.e. flag/bible burning vids).
> more computers along the communication path between you and your intended audience.

um... Have you ever run traceroute?
Yes, your point being?

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 4:55 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (3 responses)

https://www.ovh.com/us/vps/ https://hostbrew.com/openvz/ https://safehousecloud.com/ etc, your choice. There are more if you don't like those. (currently using https://www.turnkeyinternet.net/ at $5/mo)

> I'm guessing amongst those pages of ToS are various catch all clauses that reserve for them the right to cease doing business with you, if for instance you engage in extremely controversial free speech (e.g. flag/bible burning videos).

Maybe, same as your home DSL line or any other ISP connection. It's standard boilerplate. They all have intentionally vague terms that let them shut you down if you're being a nuisance. It's because of the immense variety of spammers and abusers out there.

Here's the thing: they don't want to shut you down. Go ahead and host your flag/bible burning videos. Unless you get yourself DDoSed, they will be happy to help you do it.

Running your own server at home probably won't get you better ToS, but you also won't have enough upstream bandwidth to cause much of a nuisance.

>>> more computers along the communication path between you and your intended audience.
>> um... Have you ever run traceroute?
> Yes, your point being?

There are probably no less than six or seven computers on the communication path between you and your intended audience, and maybe far more. If you're both hosting in the same ISP, that number might be as low as three. Hosting at home only makes that number go up.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 6:34 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (2 responses)

you have to look at the whole picture. Hosting at home doesn't make the number go up, it makes it go down. That is assuming that in the non-home hosted case, you are still managing your content at home, and uploading it to the host. The non-home host is an extra hop.

Think about it like this- The most atomic form of communication on the internet might be a trivial sending of the string "Hello World" via a simple standard tcp/ip listen/bind/bla/bla. Imagine that is your atomic unit of free speech. Communicating a string to a requesting audience. How can adding an extra colocated (virtual) server subtract hops from that atomic transaction? The answer is that it doesn't, it adds hops.

As for all the ToS discussion, please don't misunderstand me. I understand full well that I could intentfully simply ignore my ISPs ToS and run my server just fine. In truth, I'm not all that big a bible/flag burner, but I'm big on demanding that I have the freedom to do so. And not the freedom to "get away with it" under the radar of my ISP, but the freedom to do so with no shadow of impropriety over the transaction.

Likewise, when an innovator is developing a new client/server (~or~) p2p FOSS app, one is at a tremendous advantage if there is no implicit shadow of impropriety hanging over end users utilizing that app.

At the end of the day, there is no differential resource burden on the ISP depending on whether my utilization was as a client sending and receiving 1kb each way, versus if I was a server doing the same thing with the same other end/edgepoint. This is why it bothers me that ISPs impede such communications. I think it has become a standard practice, because the general case is that people who use their bandwidth as a server, tend to be commercially profitting from that bandwidth moreso than those who use the precise same up and down bandwidth as a client. As such, the ISPs are effectively taking a 'cut' of presumed profits by charging more. Which in a libertarian capitalist sense is fine, but thats the point at which 'free speech on the internet' clearly becomes 'as much free speech as you can afford'. Which is a sad evolution of the internet as a platform for free speech, from where it was evangelized early on.

If it weren't for the curious subject matter overlap with the Hillary Clinton home email server, I'd wonder why I don't see many other people understanding my points. But I think people are hesitant to discuss this openly for political reasons. (I certainly don't want, nor expect Trump to win, but I suppose it's still theoretically possible). Because I don't think it's difficult to consider this problem from a free speech perspective, asking the simple question "Is there any kind of hard-line free speech on the internet in any truly new way, or is the internet merely a technological evolution of the old media printing press technology, and a new generation of media barons who can fight their battle of ideas by buying ink by the barrel (or transit by the terrabyte)... The U.S. FCC's Network Neutrality makes it sound like the internet is a revolutionary new com tool that somehow provides "free speech". I want some of that good stuff, and I don't know how else to try to dilineate it's existence via the internet other than how I have been. And I challenge anyone else to demonstrate how there is free speech on the internet without the 'right' to operate a server from your access point. Just think about good old Alice and Bob wanting to communicate personal messages back and forth. If neither is allowed to host a server of any kind, that constraint necessitates that they utilize someone else's server. That someone else now has the power to limit those personal messages (free speech). My solution is simple- get "someone else" out of the picture, or rather, don't have an environment where Alice and Bob have no other choice than to bring "someone else" into their communication path.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 14:37 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Except, like I said, ISPs are happy to host your flag burning videos. Go ahead and read the ToS of any of those cheap providers. And go ahead and do it -- you'll be fine.

If you're looking for an ISP with zero restrictions (and it sounds like you are), you'll never find it. Just like, if you're looking for a street corner with zero free speech restrictions, you'll never find it. There are too many people who want to abuse the privilege.

The rules must allow for the abusers to be shut down.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 15:13 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

But note that there are always restrictions on your freedom to act - even in your part of the USA, there are things that I might think are a good idea as a matter of political speech that are prohibited outright.

For example, I might think that recreating Joseph Standing's mission to Georgia as it ended in 1879 is a good way to remind Americans of how their state governments do not always protect freedom of religion - however, to do that would be illegal, and I would not be permitted to speak out against state governments in that manner.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 6:56 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (25 responses)

It's quite simple - running a home server requires A LOT of work to do backups, provide uninterrupted power and so on. Why would you want to do that?
And I get that this must be a troll, but I don't mind feeding this one- You can buy a UPS or a laptop with a battery (effectively a UPS) for less than $100USD. I'd guess no small percentage of commenters here have one of those lying around, quite possibly collecting dust. I'd also guess that no small percentage of commenters here would disagree with your characterization of the level of work that backups require. You'd be amazed at the number of ways that computers can help you automate tasks. Good grief.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 7:35 UTC (Sat) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link] (22 responses)

They're certainly not trolling. Im' maintaning some services on a computer at home. A mail server is the one I do not want to maintain. Because of the availbiliy requirements, of the necessity to have your mail accepted by others (why bother if you don't send emails?), the necessity of downloading spam even before you can filter it, and many other problems.

And a laptop battery is not equivalent to an ups. Does the laptop battery power the DSL modem? the router ? Does it provide network access (one year ago, workers cut the optical fiber with an excavator, the whole neighbourhood was cut from internet for 3 days).

I'm winding down my dependency on the services I serve from home, wastes too much energy (literally) and pours it in the immediate environment. It's 35 degrees this week and I have no way to get rid of the excess heat. I set it up to be a low power computer at the time, now I will do it again on an ARM or other thingy. But I will still not set up a mail server.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 27, 2016 8:28 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (21 responses)

I think you may have missed my point. My point was that it is important that everyone have the option, not that it's important that everyone avail themself of it. When one describes freedom of speech as the freedom to publicly burn their nation's flag, one is not suggesting that free speech necessitates that people burn their flags. Just that they be free to do so if they want to. If you, given your circumstances and your personality, wish to cease operating a server, I strongly encourage you to avail yourself of your freedom to do so. I merely would like everyone to be able to have the option of the opposite trajectory if their particular circumstances and personality lead them to that choice. It's about freedom and options. That a society enables it's citizens to be free to become sculptors or painters does not mean that anyone has to become a sculptor or a painter if they don't want to. Likewise, an environment where people are free to operate servers from home, does not necessitate that anyone who does not wish to do so, do so. Maybe when products improve, you will look at your new circumstances and change your mind. Believe it or not, as more people perform experimental development of products and software, some of the tasks you accurately described as cumbersome may become much simpler and more robust. Or maybe not. But I'm guessing they will. And I think it will happen a lot faster, the more people are in the category of those who are free to test such emerging options if they choose. (without paying double or triple the monthly fee to the ISP for 'business class' service).

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 28, 2016 7:00 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (20 responses)

Keep in mind, that a personal mail server is nigh indistinguishable from a spam bot. And it looks like people prioritize spamless email over being able to run a private server.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 28, 2016 20:11 UTC (Sun) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

the internet and hammers are both tools. They can be used to build wonderful harmless things, or used to commit murder. The latter are why we have police, courts, and prisons. Spam leaves evidence. That kind of evidence, and its nature, is something the NSA should be educating us all about, instead of obfuscating for their own benefit. That's my opinion at least. And you are wrong, the only similarity in fact, between a spam bot and a home email server, is that they communicate email messages over the same sorts of ports. However there are a multitude of ways to differentiate between the two, starting with the recipient of a spam email contacting the police and/or the ISP of the spammer. When this is an end/edgepoint in another country, things are more complicated. If I tried to run a spam farm from a residence in e.g. california, things would not be that complicated. The government may try to spin FUD implying that existing laws are somehow magically uninvestigatable and unenforceable when the internet comes into play. I think this is entirely disingenuous and used as pretense to erode the privacy and liberty of the public. Tinfoil hat, Snowden, bla bla. You are clearly part of the problem, not the solution Cyberax. Nigh indistinguishable, jesus. Somewhere there is testimony from Vint Cerf to the U.S. congress from around 2005 discussing how the classic spam arguments against net neutrality are pure B.S. Looks like people like you are still parroting them 11 years later. We've got such a long way to go.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 28, 2016 20:57 UTC (Sun) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (18 responses)

Keep in mind, that a personal mail server is nigh indistinguishable from a spam bot. And it looks like people prioritize spamless email over being able to run a private server.
For my own amusement, let me paraphrase almost as incendiarily as I can- "Keep in mind, that a purple person walking down the street with a toolbelt including a hammer, though they be only a carpenter, is nigh indistinguishable from a person who recently bludgeoned to death someone with a hammer. It looks like the orange people prioritize a harmonious society with more easily investigatable murders over allowing purple carpenters to walk down the street while wearing their toolbelts"

Alternately, if the crime of littering was your highest priority, you could merely imprison anyone who had the physical capability to litter. But we don't do that. As a general rule, humanity seems to have found a balance where giving everyone liberty, including the liberty to commit crimes, outweighs the alternative.

I suppose your argument, is that you, and the rest of the world are perfectly fine with a world where the internet does not involve anyone operating a server from home. Myself, I'm not fine with that at all, because it sounds like a blueprint for how tyranical authoritarians can turn the 'disruptive' technology of the internet, into something where they get to maintain their position as tyrannical gatekeeper over all the new communication the new internet tech allows.

Not cool.

OMG, forget the murderers, I think yesterday I was the victim of receiving an unsolicited email. Stop the presses, re-open GITMO, break out the black hoods. Jesus, overconcerned about the harms of spam much? Oh, but you say that the environment of spam allows even more nefarious crimes to go on. I'm sure the gubernments that managed to whack bin laden couldn't ever track down those spammers and bring them to justice. It's all lies.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 7:03 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (17 responses)

Oh well, what a rant.

Obviously, if you don't get over-enthusiastic about a God-given right to run private email server then you are probably Hitler who wants to put everyone in Gitmo.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 18:16 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (16 responses)

actually it's more like- if you go as far out of your way as you have to *completely* avoid acknowledging a serious and legitimate free speech issue...

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 21:29 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (15 responses)

I personally don't see any connections between free speech and personal mail servers. And before you say that I'm a covert GESTAPO agent, I actually lived through (and supported) a fairly recent popular revolution.

Unless you make home hosting easy and practical it won't be used in any significant roles by a significant amount of users. And I just don't see how it can be practical. There are actually more important projects worth pursuing (like https://matrix.org/ ) that can actually make an impact.

And on a sidenote, the rants like the one above is a major reason why people think that techies are completely clueless.

No, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus and your triple-encrypted PGP signed network-of-trust email server won't promote free speech in any meaningful way.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 22:22 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (14 responses)

Unless you make home hosting easy and practical it won't be used in any significant roles by a significant amount of users. And I just don't see how it can be practical.
To be blunt- I think you lack imagination. You clearly see no merit in my theory- that the double/triple-price "business class / server allowed" impediment to development, testing, and deployment of new solutions/evolutions, is very precisely the one and only real impediment to "making home hosting easy and practical".

We disagree, that's fine, it happens.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 22:35 UTC (Mon) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link] (11 responses)

> the double/triple-price "business class / server allowed"

Does it exist in many countries ? In just one ? I sure don't see it here. Does it exist just in _your_ country. If so, is it really an impediment to development, testing and deployment of new solutions/evolution ?
I don't know if it's the case in one, some or many countries, and I'm not sure you know either.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 22:51 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (10 responses)

In my country, the U.S. it does exist. I can't say that I've done a survey asking the major providers what the least expensive server allowed plan is, but... I did manage to utilize the Kansas Attorney General and the FCC to compel a Google(Fiber) lawyer to do the first level of research. I.e. they used in their defense the fact that it was all but defacto practice in the U.S. for major residential ISPs to disallow server hosting in their terms of service.

Shortly after my 50 plus page complaint to the FCC in 2012, a family in Utah (the other major GFiber deployment at the time) got their small children to hold some picket signs, within 48 hours GFiber relaxed their ToS language to allow 'non-commercial' server usage. Which actually feeds my anti-commercial-competitive suspicion of motivation on their part.

As for really being an impediment? I'd sure say so. I can easily enough shell out more money to my ISP or colo or vps provider, but all receipients of any FOSS solutions I develop would need to do likewise. That's enough of a hurdle I think to slow development to a relative crawl. Also going with a colo or vps introduces a new layer of free speech limiting terms of service / gatekeeper being added to the equation. But many other developers no doubt have less concern there.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 7:00 UTC (Tue) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link] (9 responses)

So we have one data point: in your country, some of the ISPs don't allow to maintain a web server.
As far as we both know now, there is one country in the world where some of the people can't do it.
Maybe there are other places, but as for now, we don't know.

How would you conclude, at this point, that it's even marginally an impediment to the creation of these programs when maybe 1/30th of the world population has this problem (and for most of them, don't care about it)?

Ah, and also, the US are not the center of the world.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 7:28 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (8 responses)

The U.S. may not be the center of the world, but I still like our music and stand-up comedians way better than any other countries. (Well, Canada's not too bad, Kids In The Hall, Rush, Good Stuff...)

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 14:51 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (7 responses)

So you were just trolling? That's a disappointment.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 16:20 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (6 responses)

Yes, read all that I wrote and come to the conclusion that I was just trolling. Go for it. Or convict me for the crime of being moderately disappointed with others who IMHO have failed to take advantage of the wonderful freedom to run servers from home. I think the current situation most certainly does give the opportunity for countries other than the U.S. to outshine the U.S. in the development of this particular kind of home/personal/mobile server software. If the rest of the world squanders that opportunity, then, I guess my respect for the U.S. increases (by a kind of sad default).

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 17:05 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (5 responses)

Your reply to micka was 100% troll. Makes me wonder about the motives behind your other statements.

The rest of the world has already passed the US by in broadband speeds, mobile coverage, and IPv6 adoption. Perceived ToS limitations seem pretty small in comparison.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 31, 2016 12:25 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (4 responses)

> The rest of the world has already passed the US by in broadband speeds, mobile coverage, and IPv6 adoption. Perceived ToS limitations seem pretty small in comparison.

Not quite so sure about lumping things in together there.

High broadband speeds are generally available to most of the population. Unfortunately due to the lack of meaningful competition in most markets, it'll cost you.

Mobile coverage is primarily a matter of population density. These days, unless you truly live in the middle of nowhere, you're fine. (FWIW, I recently purchased some property that qualifies -- but even there there is good mobile coverage but just not with my current carrier)

When it comes to *fixed* IPv6, Comcast alone puts the US into the top tier of IPv6 deployment. Mobile IPv6 is similarly carrier dependent, but at least two of the national carriers here support it across their entire footprint.

ToS limitations are not "perceived" but actual; In my case, without paying about double the residential rates, I'd be categorically forbidden from running a server of any kind, no option of a static address, and port 25 and 80 blocked upstream.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 31, 2016 14:15 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (3 responses)

Oof, I didn't mean to go into the weeds. I just wanted to illustrate that ToS are not the biggest networking problem the US is facing, nor are they unique to the US. (Unless you're using a television company as an ISP I suppose, in which case: what did you expect??)

> High broadband speeds are generally available to most of the population

Only by the old definition. 4MB download is NOT broadband, no matter what the FCC says.

Besides, I wasn't contesting that. I was just saying relative to the world, it looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Intern...

Mobile coverage is the same story -- it only seems good if you don't travel: https://opensignal.com/reports/2015/09/state-of-lte-q3-2015/ We've been catching up in the last year but we still have a long way to go.

If you have data that shows otherwise, please share!

You're right about IPv6 -- I was laboring under antiquated information. I'm happy to no longer worry about this one.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 31, 2016 15:55 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> Besides, I wasn't contesting that. I was just saying relative to the world, it looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Intern...

That data shows a pretty wide gap between *average measured* vs *peak measured* speeds. Honestly I'm not sure how useful the latter is -- For example, Singapore utterly dominates peak speeds but on average ranks lower than the US -- but the Q3 2015 data does show that the 80% of the US's population has at least 4Mbps downstream -- but given that the average measured is over 12Mbps, there's a substantial part of the population that has much higher speeds. Those numbers have only improved since then -- the Q1 2016 shows average connection speed is 15.3Mbps, peak is 67.7Mbps, Measured 4/10/15Mbps penetration is now 85.7/56.7/35.1%, a substantial improvement for six months -- and even that data is still nearly six months out of date.

That supports my point that higher speeds are usually _available_ to most of the populace in the US, but are often priced beyond what most folks would consider affordable or worthwhile. Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, those same higher speeds are not only available but far more reasonably priced.

Of course, what's not mentioned in any of these metrics is the *upload* speed, which is far more critical to running a server.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 31, 2016 18:37 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

When I visit friends in Japan and Denmark, everyone has cheap 100mbit connections and takes them completely for granted. Over here, we grind along with flaky cable modems and the media still cheers every Google Fiber and Fios announcement. The numbers on that page match my experience anyway.

Agreed, things are getting better, but we're still disturbingly slow in comparison to the rest of the world.

> higher speeds are usually _available_ to most of the populace in the US, but are often priced beyond what most folks would consider affordable or worthwhile

That's always true everywhere. You can pay for a dedicated satellite link if you want. It's another way of saying higher speeds aren't really available, right?

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Sep 1, 2016 5:47 UTC (Thu) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

ToS limitations are not "perceived" but actual; In my case, without paying about double the residential rates, I'd be categorically forbidden from running a server of any kind, no option of a static address, and port 25 and 80 blocked upstream.
Indeed. As far the nuance between 'actual at the business contract / terms of service' level, and 'actual at the ISP gateway filtering' level, I merely opine my original point that such difference simply makes or breaks large swaths of potential competitive solutions.
Of course, what's not mentioned in any of these metrics is the *upload* speed, which is far more critical to running a server.
And here I'll try to bow out of this debate with a final compulsive pedanticism- Not 'critical'. As far as free speech is concerned, as long as there is enough bandwidth for plenty of text communication, that has tremendous utility sans any large amounts of upload bandwidth. Certainly with every increasing order of magnitude of upload bandwidth, your server/s can do more interesting things. Text, then gaming, then voice, then video, then high def, then etc... But never forget, even limited to 56kbps, you can engage in some amazing levels of liberating free (text) speech on the internet. Kids probably take that stuff for granted these days.

Get off my virtual lawn.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 1:37 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

I know that this theory is pure BS. I lived in a country where 1GB Internet was common, without any real restrictions. Yet pretty much the only hosted servic were BitTorrent shares.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 30, 2016 2:06 UTC (Tue) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

and somewhere in a thousand years, some AI will compare and contrast our points here with recorded history. I am still quite hopeful that home/personal(mobile/subcutaneous/etc) hosted servers will bring a very significant level of utility to humanity in the coming decades and centuries.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 9:30 UTC (Mon) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

I certainly don't have any UPSs around at home. 15 years ago I did have an old 486 server running at home. In those days only dial-up internet connection was available, charged by the minute. One small configuration error on my part led to an uninterrupted two weeks long connection and a telephone bill more than half of my monthly wage. Definitely wasn't fun. It is just one of the things that could go wrong. Running safe, secure and highly available service at home is complicated, otherwise the wages of sysadmins wouldn't be at the level they are now. It's so much easier to access gmail.com.

hillary-like personal email server appliances

Posted Aug 29, 2016 18:18 UTC (Mon) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

I'll point out that I've kept my ranting to a nice subset of this thread. I entirely enjoy the rest of this thread that lays out the technical difficulties involved with being the sysadmin for any kind of email server. I'd also point out that I've addressed how that related to my free speech soapboxing. I just want a soapbox, er, server.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 10:15 UTC (Thu) by szbalint (guest, #95343) [Link] (2 responses)

Centralization vs decentralization is not the only consideration, or even the main one that should matter.

I'll cite Moxie Marlinspike's article about this as he puts it better than I ever could: https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 21, 2016 19:46 UTC (Sun) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link] (1 responses)

> Centralization vs decentralization is not the only consideration, or even the main one that should matter.

Like almost everybody in the intersection of free software, open communication, and privacy, I read the linked article back then. And I am very grateful for it, because it reinforced my opinion, that to me decentralisation is an essential value, just as is software freedom.

A centralised system is practically not free anymore, because the user can't change or improve it. They may have the source code, but it could as well be closed. It is TIVOized by infrastructure. This is different in distributed or federated systems. You can change the code of your MTA, and as long as its dialect of SMTP is still understood by its peers you will get along with it. You can write your own XMPP server, and even have private extensions, and we still can chat with each other.

The authors excuse, that you have the source code, so that in case of "horrible changes" you can run their own alternative instead, does not hold. In case of a centralised service, all users would have to find the same trigger value of "horrible".

There are other points, the author missed. E.g.: Centralised services are much more prone to DoS or shutdown-by-law than federated services (XMPP) or fully distributed ones (Ring). Same goes for meta-data. It is much harder to fetch everything in federated and distributed systems than in centralised ones.

Talking about a bad example of a centralised service: Signal! It has good encryption, which is surely nice, esp. if you are Edward Snowden. To me it matters more, if I can use it on my free operation system (here: Debian) without using a phone number as identifier, which is a not so clever idea, IMHO. How could users possibly improve this aspect of Signal?

Let's put it that way:

Crypto-strength vs crypto-weakness is not the only consideration, or even the main one that should matter.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 5:46 UTC (Mon) by liw (subscriber, #6379) [Link]

I agree on the value of de-centralisation. I like to say, in my more provocative moods, that a centralised system is either evil or vulnerable.

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 18, 2016 23:05 UTC (Thu) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

According to the article, gmail is the largest email provider, and according to the wikipedia link given, supports SPF. A small contradiction, but curious if there was something I missed...

Resisting the centralization of network infrastructure

Posted Aug 22, 2016 20:27 UTC (Mon) by apiontek (guest, #106869) [Link]

What's needed is a different economy, different laws, different primary cultural values.

There's no reason that everyone should have to run their own mailserver, any more than everyone should have to grow their own food or sew their own clothes. Skill specialization is an important part of human life. Sharing of resources is a fundamental human strength.

The problem is the economics of advertising. Why would anyone design for federalizing when that means some eyeballs don't need your service? The incentive of advertising economics is visitor lock-in. And if you choose another route, you have to charge for the service you offer people, or starve. The problem is capitalism.

*Maybe* with a basic income, and/or a 20-hour work week, stuff like that -- *maybe* there'd be a significant increase of the technically inclined running federalized servers, for fun, for family & friends, offering some disruption to the predominant model. Maybe.

SSL certs

Posted Aug 25, 2016 16:13 UTC (Thu) by curaga (guest, #106812) [Link] (1 responses)

You can always use a browser that acts differently w/ SSL certs. Shamelesss plug: Fifth, my browser, treats SSL certs similar to how SSH treats keys, ie have they changed since you last saw them. No phoning home anywhere.

SSL certs

Posted Aug 26, 2016 6:15 UTC (Fri) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

In a world when more and more people use 90 day certificate (hello Let's Encrypt) it doesn't sound right. It will desensitize user for certificate alerts in couple of weeks.


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