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Finding a new home for Thunderbird

From:  Gervase Markham <gerv-4eJtQOnFJqFAfugRpC6u6w-AT-public.gmane.org>
To:  mozilla-governance-CzyLcWPZiU5YsZ3hbOqMTti2O/JbrIOy-AT-public.gmane.org
Subject:  Thunderbird Update
Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:33:09 +0100
Message-ID:  <1qydneJhoIVIyYPKnZ2dnUU7-QnNnZ2d@mozilla.org>
Archive‑link:  Article

Hi everyone,

Last December, we had a conversation[0] in this forum about the future
of Thunderbird, initiated by Mitchell. At the time, we said that we
would move to separate Thunderbird from Firefox’s release engineering
infrastructure. Since then, we have been reviewing the options for a
clear path forward for Thunderbird with a view to ensure its long-term
stability while providing it with the right independence. We have looked
both at the technical dimension and the organizational aspects, and this
message gives an update on where we are.

On the technical side, it has become clear over the past few years that
Thunderbird and Firefox have diverging needs and that the fact that they
share a common release engineering infrastructure puts a strain on both
Thunderbird and Firefox’s developments. We came to the conclusion that
we needed to disentangle them.

We’ve started the process of helping the Thunderbird Council chart a
course forward for Thunderbird’s future technical direction, by posting
a job specification[1] for a technical architect. In the next weeks, we
will assign the chosen person the mission to assess the situation
holistically, provide advice to the Thunderbird leadership on how best
to proceed and draft a plan to help separate the technology underpinning
Thunderbird from the one supporting Firefox.

This means that Thunderbird will need an organization to support these
new experiments. It will also need the legal ability to raise money to
finance itself. Mozilla has put in place the ability for Thunderbird to
take donations in the short term. But we need to decide where the best
home is for the long term.

Therefore, we are today publishing a report[2] authored by open source
leader Simon Phipps that explores options for a future organizational
home for Thunderbird. This can be discussed either here or on the
tb-planning mailing list. This is the start of a conversation, not the
end, and we hope the Thunderbird community will have a productive
discussion about the best path.

We hope that, by mid-2016, the outcome of this process will be a clear
path forward for Thunderbird, both on a technical and on an
organizational level, towards a solution that ensures long-term stability.

Mark Surman has also posted a blog post[3] with more about the origins
of the transition process and the steps towards Thunderbird
independence. I am assisting the Thunderbird project through this
process and am also happy to answer questions.

Gerv

[0]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21msg/mozilla.governanc...
[1] https://careers.mozilla.org/position/ohUW2fwT
[2]
https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/files/2016/04/Findin...
[3]
https://marksurman.commons.ca/2016/04/25/firefox-and-thun...
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Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 11:58 UTC (Tue) by oever (guest, #987) [Link] (19 responses)

Simon omitted KDE from the list of possible homes for Mozilla Thunderbird. It would be good to amend the document to include KDE.

KDE is a large community with very good infrastructure for Free Software projects. Most of those project are currently C++, just like Thunderbird. All the advantages that are listed for TDF apply to KDE and then some. Where TDF is all about one (important) code base, LibreOffice, KDE is about any software that helps to achieve digital freedom.

KDE is not just Qt based software. It invites any project that subscribes to the KDE manifesto to join. KDE recently published its vision: A world in which everyone has control over their digital life and enjoys freedom and privacy. This is a vision that I'm sure the Thunderbird developers have too.

Like Apache, KDE has an incubation process that specifies the steps to becoming a KDE project. A recent incubee is WikiToLearn.

Like TDF, KDE is based in Germany. KDE volunteers host excellent facilities for continous integration, translation, code quality assurance, code review and issue management that are available to all KDE projects.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 12:25 UTC (Tue) by webmink (guest, #47180) [Link]

I'm not expecting there to be a second edition of the report, so I suggest you post your recommendation to the tb-planning mailing list where the decision will be discussed.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 16:45 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link] (4 responses)

Somehow KDE feels like an unlikely home for a GTK-based project though :)

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 16:59 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

Maybe they'll pick up the stagnant project to port xulrunner to Qt?

That way everyone wins: Thunderbird users get a well-supported cross-platform foundation, and KDE gets a mail client that works!

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 27, 2016 20:24 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Or everyone loses: XUL continues to occupy development resources instead of getting put to pasture.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 17:42 UTC (Tue) by oever (guest, #987) [Link] (1 responses)

KDE already has a number of GTK projects such as breeze-gtk and kde-gtk-config.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 27, 2016 6:53 UTC (Wed) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

... And former-gtk ones like gcompris. There is no reason I can think off why Thunderbird wouldn't fit - there already are three email clients within the KDE community anyway, one that also started independently and doesn't use the KDE libs...

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 17:39 UTC (Tue) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link] (1 responses)

Interesting idea. Of course, KDE already has KMail so would they want to pick up another one?

I used KMail for years until the KDE 4 version botched the ability to enlarge text, so I was forced to switch to Thunderbird.

Maybe some kind of integration would be a win for all, but with two very different toolkits that would likely be difficult.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 19:59 UTC (Tue) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

Oh, and next to kmail, a couple of other email client projects, some are dead by now, some are very much alive, like Trojita.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 18:22 UTC (Tue) by kreijack (guest, #43513) [Link] (7 responses)

> Simon omitted KDE from the list of possible homes for Mozilla Thunderbird.
> It would be good to amend the document to include KDE.

Even tough this is an interesting option, I am not sure if this is a good one.

Thunderbird is cross platform (Linux, OSX, Windows) and it is based on GTK and xul. Instead the KDE application are Qt based and "linux" mostly (only ?). So even tough KDE is big enough to support Thunderbird, the technologies are very different.

IMHO TDF is a more suitable option: LibreOffice is cross platform, and these developers already have an experience to support a "very big beast" based to a not so common toolkit (Thunderbird is based to the specific Mozilla "xul" technology, LibreOffice was based on an its own toolkit). Moreover KDE already has (had ?) KMail: there would be a conflict of interests.

Anyway I am (negatively) impressed that there is a so low interest in supporting Thunderbird: it is one of the last cross platform non web email client. I think that it should have a very large user base. It is strange that Mozillia is not willing to support it anymore.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 18:53 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> Anyway I am (negatively) impressed that there is a so low interest in supporting Thunderbird: it is one of the last cross platform non web email client. I think that it should have a very large user base. It is strange that Mozillia is not willing to support it anymore.

The overwhelming majority of non-corporate users utilize a webmail client (or maybe a native smartphone app). And the corporate market can be summarized in one word: Outlook.

(Incidentally, Thunderbird+Lightning+EWS Provider appears to be a decent Outlook alternative if you're stuck with Exchange on the backend. It's far more stable and performant than Evolution..)

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 27, 2016 6:27 UTC (Wed) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link]

I'm using TB+Lightning+EWS @work, it works somewhat Ok-ish, "decent" is perhaps stretching it a bit though.

Given that mozilla is, in the long term, apparently planning to get rid of XUL in favor of something like browser.html, TB certainly has a lot of work to do regardless of whether they choose to migrate (mailclient.html?) or pick up the maintenance burden for XUL.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 28, 2016 12:31 UTC (Thu) by david.brown@hesbynett.no (guest, #104286) [Link]

We find that Thunderbird + Lightning + EWS Provider is a perfectly good mail client for Windows and Linux. I would go as far as to say it is not a "decent Outlook alternative", but that Outlook is a poor second choice. As long as the mail server has IMAP, Thunderbird is a significantly better mail client than Outlook - but Outlook is a better calendar client.

As for home use, I can only speak for myself and my immediate family - we have all used Thunderbird since its inception.

I would like to see Thunderbird move to The Document Foundation. Those folks have made a great deal of effort into compatibility with MS's ever-changing variations of formats for office documents, and I believe they would be able to integrate MS Exchange support (at least EWS) into Thunderbird to provide a complete alternative to MS Office.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 19:58 UTC (Tue) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

"Thunderbird is cross platform (Linux, OSX, Windows) and it is based on GTK and xul. Instead the KDE application are Qt based and "linux" mostly (only ?). So even tough KDE is big enough to support Thunderbird, the technologies are very different."

People keep thinking along the old lines. Gnome versus KDE, GTK versus Qt... It's outdated.

KDE is home to a whole lot of application, like the desktop project, but also other projects like Krita, Digikam, Kexi, Peruse, KStars... Which are all cross-platform. Krita has more Windows users than Linux users, by a terrifyingly large margin. But it's a KDE project. Then there are web-based projects, Qt-based projects, even GTK-based projects.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 26, 2016 23:17 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (2 responses)

> Instead the KDE application are Qt based and "linux" mostly (only ?).

KDE isn't even remotely Linux-only. KDE 3 ran fine on Cygwin, and I've heard bits and pieces of the newer DEs run natively on other OSes. So there's no portability problem there, as would be expected from a toolkit designed to be portable in the first place.

And I think they have plenty of experience with “big” apps: Krita is available everywhere LibreOffice is.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 28, 2016 17:41 UTC (Thu) by kreijack (guest, #43513) [Link] (1 responses)

> KDE isn't even remotely Linux-only. KDE 3 ran fine on Cygwin...
Seriously ? Let me to inform you that KDE3 is quite old :))))

It seems that there was a porting of kde 4.10.2 to windows [1]; but this is a work date 2013...

I can believe that there is a porting of kde4 to windows, but I don't think that the installation base of kde4 in windows is somewhat comparable to libreoffice and/or Thunderbird....

[1] https://windows.kde.org/

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 28, 2016 18:39 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

You're confused about the meaning of the word "KDE". There are a lot of different projects that are members of the KDE community. One of those is a project that makes a desktop for Linux, another is a project that makes a photo manager, another is a project that makes educational software. Yet another is my project, which is a painting application for digital artists. That one, which is part of the KDE community, has hundreds of thousands installs in Windows. Another is gcompris, which has tens of thousands of install on Android, as well as Windows. There are projects part of the KDE community creating add-on libraries for Qt, which are cross-platform, there are projects working on web software for education, there are projects working on low-level stuff for handling email... And more, much more.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 27, 2016 10:46 UTC (Wed) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (2 responses)

Since you mention the manifesto (https://manifesto.kde.org/commitments.html), what does "The project stays true to established practices common to similar KDE projects" mean in this regard ?

I mean, it is not very far fetched to interpret using the Qt- and KDE-libraries and cmake to build a GUI application as "established practices".

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 27, 2016 12:24 UTC (Wed) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link] (1 responses)

Peer-reviews, open communication and governance, pragmatism, "those who do the work, decide", that kind of thing. This has nothing to do with a tie-in to specific libraries. (We discussed this extensively when creating the manifesto, and it's one of the corner points: KDE affiliation is not bound to (neither earnt with) just using Qt and CMake. Pragmatism trumps.

Finding a new home for Thunderbird

Posted Apr 28, 2016 6:48 UTC (Thu) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]

Ah. I thought, since this is one of the points under "Technical requirements" and links to https://community.kde.org/Policies (link needs to be updated) the practices would refer at least in some way to technical things, and not only process.


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