The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 12:27 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release by torquay
Parent article: The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

> Audio worked, on a widely used laptop. Now it doesn't. It's a regression, pure and simple.

No, out of the box Fedora *didn't work*, a kludge was introduced with a later update that worked, but turned out to cause other problems elsewhere. Pop quiz, which regression is more serious; a single laptop's audio not working, or multiple other systems not even booting?

(Again, this is an upstream kernel problem, affecting *all* users of that kernel and that particular hardware)

> This kind of cowboy crap wouldn't fly in the RHEL world,

In the RHEL world you explicitly buy hardware that's already been certified to work with that particular OS, intending to run software that's also been certified for that particular OS, instead of "cowboying" it with a brand-new bit of kit and installing a bleeding-edge, unsupported OS on it that doesn't work out-of-the-box.

> Arguing otherwise is just an indication that RH treats Fedora users with zero respect.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 13:07 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (4 responses)

> turned out to cause other problems elsewhere.

The code in question is gated behind a DMI check that only runs on the specific laptop. How could it cause problems elsewhere?

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 13:48 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (3 responses)

Is the XPS 13 (model 9343) the only system override gated by CONFIG_ACPI_REV_OVERRIDE_POSSIBLE? If so, I retract my statement.

But I will quote Comment 14 on that RHBZ #1313434:

"FYI, CONFIG_ACPI_REV_OVERRIDE_POSSIBLE causes the 32-bit kernel to reboot
as soon as the 32-bit kernel boots."

Which seems like a more serious problem than not having sound.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 14:38 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

> Is the XPS 13 (model 9343) the only system override gated by CONFIG_ACPI_REV_OVERRIDE_POSSIBLE? If so, I retract my statement.

Yes.

> "FYI, CONFIG_ACPI_REV_OVERRIDE_POSSIBLE causes the 32-bit kernel to reboot
as soon as the 32-bit kernel boots."

I'd be pretty amazingly astonished if this is true, since the only thing the code does is set a flag that causes the kernel to revert to its <4.2 behaviour.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 16:09 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> I'd be pretty amazingly astonished

I find this amusing that you'd be astonished by any hardware foolishness after staring in the gaping abyss of low level boot code for so long.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 19:44 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Shrug. I can imagine some hilarious corner cases where some SMM code assumed a 64-bit kernel if _REV gave 5, but in that case it'd have been broken in <4.2 as well.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 15:09 UTC (Thu) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (11 responses)

No, out of the box Fedora *didn't work*, a kludge was introduced with a later update that worked

Audio in Fedora 22 worked fine. Fedora 23 out-of-the box introduced the first regression (ie. F22 -> F23 upgrade), which was (promptly) corrected. Most recently the workaround for the audio setting was accidentally removed during the kernel 4.3 -> 4.4 update within F23, causing the second regression. Upon being informed of this, Abbott re-enabled the workaround, but then deliberately removed it. This is certainly cowboy behavior.

which regression is more serious; a single laptop's audio not working, or multiple other systems not even booting?

This particular workaround for the audio setting is only enabled on the laptop in question.

s/RH/Dell/ -- After all, it's their hardware, and they're the ones who botched the ACPI/firmware implementation badly enough such that after 7 updates the audio still doesn't work properly without lying to the laptop about what ACPI features are supported. One can argue ad infinitum that this is "upstream's fault", continually passing the blame. In the end, audio with the Fedora kernel worked, and then it was deliberately broken. From the point of view of Fedora users, the Fedora kernel is the upstream. You break it, you fix it.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 15:42 UTC (Thu) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link] (2 responses)

How much do you pay for your Fedora subscription, by the way?

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 15:57 UTC (Thu) by torquay (guest, #92428) [Link] (1 responses)

How much do you pay for your Fedora subscription, by the way?

I pay with my time by testing Fedora and filing bugs in the Red Hat Bugzilla. In turn, Red Hat indirectly uses my time and efforts to build RHEL, its bread and butter.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 18, 2016 15:04 UTC (Fri) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link]

I pay with my time by testing Fedora and filing bugs in the Red Hat Bugzilla. In turn, Red Hat indirectly uses my time and efforts to build RHEL, its bread and butter.

It's good that you contribute, however if you think of Fedora as "free RHEL testing" you'll grow resentful. Fedora is RHEL's upstream, but it is a distinct project.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 15:44 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (6 responses)

> Audio in Fedora 22 worked fine.

Not out-of-the-box it didn't. The laptop needed a firmware update (actually, several) in order to get to that point. (Seriously, that laptop was a complete basket case on Linux for a while -- which is why I decided against buying it)

Well, unless you bought the "XPS 13 developer edition" and stuck to the OS/Kernel that shipped with the system instead of updating to upstream Ubuntu. But even the developer edition (and the firmware fixes that made it possible) came well after the laptop was available to the general public.

> One can argue ad infinitum that this is "upstream's fault", continually passing the blame. In the end, audio with the Fedora kernel worked, and then it was deliberately broken. From the point of view of Fedora users, the Fedora kernel is the upstream. You break it, you fix it.

You're right, this particular regression is technically the Fedora kernel maintainer's fault.

I suggest you contact your official Fedora support rep about this breach of contract. You're probably entitled to a full refund.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 16:13 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> I suggest you contact your official Fedora support rep about this breach of contract. You're probably entitled to a full refund.

I understand that people don't like being criticized for their decisions but I think this is all in the spirit of making the software better, not just blaming and pointless venting.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 20:33 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> I understand that people don't like being criticized for their decisions but I think this is all in the spirit of making the software better, not just blaming and pointless venting.

Today's "On the Fastrack" seems quite appropriate:

http://comicskingdom.com/on-the-fastrack/2016-03-17

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 17, 2016 19:43 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

> Not out-of-the-box it didn't.

Yes it did.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 21, 2016 18:25 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Panto !!!

Cheers,
Wol

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 20, 2016 21:39 UTC (Sun) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link] (1 responses)

4.1.4 (or something) wouldn't boot on my computer (5K iMac). 4.1.3 or something worked. The Fedora Linux team didn't really didn't give a shit, but upstream (thank you AMD) solved the problem in 4.3 (i helped test some patches).

If you have specific HW that does not work Fedora does not really care in my experience. But I do not know if any free (as in cost) distro is better.

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 20, 2016 21:42 UTC (Sun) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]

Here is the Fedora bugzilla, it was 4.0.5 that broke.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1240566

The first CyanogenMod 13.0 release

Posted Mar 25, 2016 10:46 UTC (Fri) by darkbasic (guest, #107872) [Link]

This is much more complicated than you are trying to depict. CONFIG_ACPI_REV_OVERRIDE_POSSIBLE is an ugly workaround which prevents users to get I2S audio, which is working and supported since kernel 4.4 (at least for me, I don't know why some claim it doesn't). The real problem is upstream, which introduced a mandatory CONFIG_DW_DMAC_CORE=y in order to get I2S audio which distros obviously cannot ship: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1308792

@whoever jokes about asking refunds for FOSS software
You're not funny, free doesn't mean low quality nor having to settle. I personally contribute in many ways besides throwing a fixed amount of money at FOSS projects every month and there are plenty of peoples who contribute even more. I have no interest in the Fedora kernel because I always compile my own, but still I keep reporting bugs on configuration issues because I want things to work out of the box for other peoples.

Regarding Android: it is utter shit compared to whichever Linux distribution. ABI compatibility means nothing to me if they keep the development behind the curtains, with giant patchsets you will never be able to merge upstream and ugly blobs all over around. I'm angry enough because of the Intel's firmware, wishing to transform Linux to an Android-like nightmare is out of question.

P.S.
The real one to blame here is Dell, because this fucking laptop is supposed to support Linux while the only thing which it does (half) support is their Android-like outdated Ubuntu distribution. You cannot sell a "Linux" laptop and at the same time ignore issues like this: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105251