Cooperative Linux 0.51

[Posted January 25, 2004 by corbet]

From:		Dan Aloni <da-x-AT-gmx.net>
To:		Linux Kernel List <linux-kernel-AT-vger.kernel.org>
Subject:		[ANNOUNCE] Cooperative Linux
Date:		Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:35:18 +0200

Hello fellow developers, kernel hackers, and open source contributors,

Cooperative Linux is a port of the Linux kernel which allows it 
to run cooperatively under other operating systems in ring0 without 
hardware emulation, based on very minimal changes in the architecture 
dependent code and almost no changes in functionality.

The bottom line is that it allows us to run Linux on an unmodified
Windows 2000/XP system in a practical way (the user just launches 
an app), and it may eventually bring Linux to a large sector of desktop 
computer users who wouldn't even care about trying to install a 
dual boot system or boot a Linux live CD (like Knoppix).

Screen-shots and further details at:

    http://www.colinux.org

Our motto is:

    "If Linux runs on every architecture, why should another 
     operating system be in its way?"

coLinux is similar to plex86 in a way that it implements a Linux-specific 
lightweight VM with I/O virtualization. However, it is designed to be 
mostly host-OS independent, so that with minimal porting efforts it 
would be possible to run it under Solaris, Linux itself, or any operating 
system that supports loading kernel drivers, under any architecture that 
uses an MMU. Unlike other virtualization methods, it doesn't base its 
implementation on exceptions that are caused by instructions. 

Cooperative Linux is like the kernel mode equivalent of User Mode Linux. 
It relies on the host OS kernel-space interfaces rather than relying on 
host OS user-space interfaces.

Currently, it is stable enough (on some common hardware configurations) 
for running a fully functional KNOPPIX/Debian system on Windows (see 
website screen-shots).

Another project close to achieving that goal is the Windows port of 
User Mode Linux (http://umlwin32.sf.net).

Project page:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/colinux 

Thank you for your time,

 - The coLinux development team.

This Open Source project is sponsored and produced by AIST, 2004 
http://www.aist.go.jp/

-- 
Dan Aloni
da-x@gmx.net
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Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 21:36 UTC (Sun) by dusty (guest, #14668) [Link]

Wow. I for one think this really looks cool. This could really be a big step in penetrating the desktop market. I havent really gotten excited about much lately in the Linux world, but this perked my ears up. Most folks are not very technical anyway so anything that makes it easier for the masses to try and use Linux makes me happy. As laypersons grow accustomed to Linux, the fear factor is removed and they migrate.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 21:58 UTC (Sun) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] (10 responses)

hmm, neat toy I guess - but somehow, linux as an expee app doesn't do much for me.

What would be really cool though would be to be able to run expee as a linux app, so you could enjoy the benefits of linux on the bare metal, but fire up the virtual expee if you need to run some pesky legacy windows-only program, or just experiment in a properly contained microsoft sandbox.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 22:07 UTC (Sun) by headsman (guest, #17057) [Link]

This would be exactly the same thing for me. In fact, it now makes months that I run linux on both my laptop and desktop; I could not imagine to go back to Windows. I only use it for win32 coding when IM forced to, to support soft I made for customers in the past - and this is in vmware I do it.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 22:14 UTC (Sun) by donwaugaman (subscriber, #4214) [Link] (6 responses)

As long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.

Seriously, though, while I think everyone here would prefer to run the real OS natively and the poser OS for the legacy work, it's a pretty good guess that MS would work overtime to make their offering not work with any emulator out there that starts to help build market share for some other OS. (I'd guess that VMWare is pretty much under their radar screen, but that they likely have a contingency plan in case it takes off.)

The real key to making something like this work would be a certain degree of transparency - allow users to put icons for Linux apps on the Windows desktop, allow X to display windows on the desktop directly, make drag-n-drop and cut-and-paste "just work", so that an office worker or home user might never notice that some of their apps are running on Linux (except for, e.g. invulnerability to a lot of viruses...)

The trouble with such glue code, however, is that MS controls one side of the equation, and it's again a sure bet that the rules will change as soon as trouble threatens.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 22:50 UTC (Sun) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] (2 responses)

Absolutely. A Linux distribution for Windows could run the kernel and the X server in the background and provide a launcher for Windows that would run Linux software of the Linux kernel. This would eliminate the need to port userspace software to Windows. So instead of buying Photoshop or running unstable Win32 port of The GIMP, I could run the Linux binary of The GIMP directly on a Windows machine.

Of course I don't want to discourage the ongoing efforts to bring free software to Windows, but having an additional option would be a nice thing to have.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 26, 2004 20:20 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link] (1 responses)

From the announcement: "Cooperative Linux is like the kernel mode equivalent of User Mode Linux. It relies on the host OS kernel-space interfaces rather than relying on host OS user-space interfaces."

Doesn't this pose a small GPL problem? Would linking the GPL kernel with the Windows kernel-space interfaces be a violation of the GPL? ... Just wondering.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 26, 2004 22:05 UTC (Mon) by piman (guest, #8957) [Link]

No. GPL section 3 explicitly allows it. This is also dealt with in the FSF's GPL FAQ.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 23:11 UTC (Sun) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link] (1 responses)

However, MS can't change older software. If linux could run windows 98 smoothly now, then all those people who are thinking about upgrading could run linux and have a complete legacy system available. As more people find such software useful, more effort can be justified in cloning more recent MS operating systems (like samba does for remote filesystems).

The other advantage is that it becomes easier to work out what magic is being performed in drivers and software that is difficult to support under wine. If you can run a mostly complete system except for one driver it becomes a lot easier to reverse engineer that driver (there may be laws in some countries that make this impractical).

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 26, 2004 2:02 UTC (Mon) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

As I understand it, Cooperative Linux doesn't include support to any hardware. I don't see how it could help with reverse engineering Windows drivers. Maybe I don't understand your idea.

On the other hand, Cooperative Linux may be very useful for Wine development. You could run the same program in Wine and natively on the same system. The are other ways to do it, but having one more would not hurt.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 29, 2004 19:28 UTC (Thu) by nowster (subscriber, #67) [Link]

The trouble with such glue code, however, is that MS controls one side of the equation, and it's again a sure bet that the rules will change as soon as trouble threatens.

We've been there before. It was called OS/2 (versions 2 and later).

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 25, 2004 23:16 UTC (Sun) by rjw (guest, #10415) [Link] (1 responses)

This is great for transitioning.

Think about it - masses of corporate desktops have stupid little Win32 apps written by morons in MFC, VB, or some other abortion of a dev framework running on them right now. A lot of them rely on ridiculously specific behaviour of Excel, Access, or IE. No matter how much we would like it to happen, people can't port this stuff overnight.

What this allows is a gradual transition:

Windows upgrade treadmill nightmare.
Parallel run some free apps -Mozilla and OpenOffice.org - with the usual suspects of Office and IE. Start porting the insane spread sheets to OO, get rid of the scary IE aspects of your web pages. Switch your servers to Linux over time.
Switch fully to OO + Moz.
Run the free apps on CoLinux and gain access to a whole bunch more. Start porting the custom Win32 rubbish piecemeal or sourcing replacements.
Switch to a full linux distro, and run the remaining rubbish on either:
- Terminal Servers with rdpclient if its an occasional annoyance rather than a full time workhorse app.
- VMWare/Win4Lin if you have the cash
- PleX86/ qemu if they are fast enough at that point.
- CrossOver/Wine if they good enough at that point.
Finish porting, be free of the tyrant.

So this adds another stage to the transition, and I think it is an important one. Of course these stages can all be done in parallel in different areas and reordered a bit if required.

BTW, you maybe able to run XP as an app with Free Software in the not too distant future. Of course there is the dog slow bochs, but qemu is coming on by leaps and bounds. I've not heard much from Plex86 recently, but maybe it'll be resurrected. And of course Wine is always getting better.

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 26, 2004 22:26 UTC (Mon) by xoddam (guest, #2322) [Link]

> And of course Wine is always getting better

yes, we had a bottle of 19981104 the other night over dinner,
it goes very well with roast vegetables ;-)

[slightly OT] VMWare with 2.6 kernel

Posted Jan 25, 2004 23:39 UTC (Sun) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link] (1 responses)

Since someone above mentioned VMWare, I thought I'd ask if anybody's heard anything about when VMWare will be supporting the 2.6 kernel...? I know there's unofficial patches, but an official version would be nice...

[slightly OT] VMWare with 2.6 kernel

Posted Jan 26, 2004 3:10 UTC (Mon) by dany (guest, #18902) [Link]

Its because VMware Inc. is supporting some main Linux distributions, and not only part of operating system (like kernel).
However my slackware is not "officialy" supported, i am running happy vmware on 2.6.1 kernel.

http://ftp.cvut.cz/vmware/

Cooperative Linux 0.51

Posted Jan 26, 2004 10:19 UTC (Mon) by beejaybee (guest, #1581) [Link]

Sorry, guys, but I think you have this one backwards....

The best transitioning tool would surely be one which allows Win XP to run as a native linux application, without the heavy efficiency problems caused by emulation. Wine is a partial solution, as it allows (some) Windows applications to be run direct from a linux desktop.

Unfortunately, as other people have said, M$ are most unlikely to play ball, so it's probably a non-starter to have a full listing of Win XP APIs so that they can be handled in linux - either in user space or in the kernel.

The joys of patching

Posted Jan 26, 2004 10:35 UTC (Mon) by ayeomans (guest, #1848) [Link]

Sounds like this is an interesting competitor for Microsoft Windows Services for Unix. Good for developers, but much less fun for system admins - who wants the joy of applying both Windows and Linux patches (:-)