Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 19, 2016 17:42 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
In reply to: Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux by fandingo
Parent article: Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

> Then table the proposal until you can discuss it freely

Isn't that what he just did - tabled it so we could discuss it?

:-) Hint - "table it" is not a very good phrase to use - I suspect it means the complete opposite to me than to you - it has a completely different meaning in English. (As opposed to American.)

Cheers,
Wol

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 19, 2016 18:25 UTC (Fri) by fandingo (guest, #67019) [Link] (9 responses)

Table means to postpone consideration. It means that in both languages. The only discrepancy is the expectation on when consideration will resume. British English implies soon, but American English implies later or possibly never.

You could use either definition and not lose my meaning.

You seem to believe that things "on the table" are under active consideration. That's not true in either language.

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 19, 2016 19:01 UTC (Fri) by Pc5Y9sbv (guest, #41328) [Link]

Actually, there are two different idioms understood consistently in all English dialects, except for certain members of either population who may be ignorant of one of the idioms. Tabling a discussion point is not the same idiom as putting something on the table.

A completely different metaphorical mapping is at play for "tabling" versus "putting/taking on/off the table". The former invokes a governmental procedure to change topics away from the item being tabled, while the latter invokes including/excluding a topic or item for negotiation or transaction in a business or gambling setting. The very specific syntax of table as a verb versus putting or taking are the idiomatic signals for these two different metaphors.

This post is about interoperable communication so I think is somehow on topic for LWN and license lawyering. :-)

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 19, 2016 22:51 UTC (Fri) by pjtait (subscriber, #17475) [Link]

I think it is true in non-US English, according to OED: "(a) To present or submit formally for discussion or consideration." Seems to imply "active consideration", no mention of postponement....

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 20, 2016 5:08 UTC (Sat) by csamuel (✭ supporter ✭, #2624) [Link]

fandingo writes:

> Table means to postpone consideration. It means that in both languages.

As someone from the UK who has spent more than a decade living in Australia I've never heard it used in that manner in either country (so far).

However, my 1990 copy (14th edition) of Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable surprised me in that it gives both meanings as being used; both to postpone discussion and to put a matter up for discussion.

Language is a wonderfully bizzare thing. :-)

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 21, 2016 10:04 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (5 responses)

I never knew that "to table a discussion" could mean "to postpone indefinitely" to an American speaker, if the timeframe of that discussion is left implicit.

The Irish & British use might not mean "under active consideration" right now, but it does imply some imminence to that discussion. At the very least, one would expect that the next discussion will include that topic, so if there is any discussion then that topic should be part of it.

Learn something new every day.

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 21, 2016 12:37 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

There's a great story about Churchill and Roosevelt, meeting in mid-Atlantic in 1942, where some advisor came up with a good idea.

"We need to table that" says Churchill.

"No no, we mustn't table it" says Roosevelt.

Cue some quiet amusement when they realised what had happened :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 21, 2016 16:48 UTC (Sun) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (2 responses)

"The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language. " (uncertain attribution)

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 25, 2016 19:48 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Just to add to that, as I understand "to table something" it doesn't necessarily mean to discuss immediately, but in *English* it very definitely gives the topic some urgency.

Used outside of a meeting, it would be understood as "this needs to be on the next agenda", and in a meeting we would typically say "this needs to be tabled for the next meeting".

Having watched one of my local council meetings, it was very definitely the case that if it wasn't on the agenda it wouldn't get discussed, so tabling something would make sure it got on the next one.

Cheers,
Wol

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Mar 22, 2016 1:04 UTC (Tue) by Rudd-O (guest, #61155) [Link]

Obviously by Oscar Wilde.

Kirkland: ZFS licensing and Linux

Posted Feb 21, 2016 17:16 UTC (Sun) by Pc5Y9sbv (guest, #41328) [Link]

It doesn't necessarily mean indefinite postponement to Americans. It really just means let's stop talking about this and move on to other items in an agenda. The ambiguity of intention may come from a cultural awareness of US congressional tactics, where tabling something may be a precursor to sending it to a smaller committee, where it may be mangled beyond recognition or left to die before it is ever brought before a full session again. So, it can have this connotation of terminating broad debate and handing off to power brokers.