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Linux Foundation announces project to "advance blockchain technology"

The Linux Foundation has announced a new collaborative project to "develop an enterprise grade, open source distributed ledger framework" to allow developers to build "robust, industry-specific applications, platforms and hardware systems to support business transactions". Twenty companies have joined the effort: Accenture, ANZ Bank, Cisco, CLS, Credits, Deutsche Börse, Digital Asset Holdings, DTCC, Fujitsu Limited, IC3, IBM, Intel, J.P. Morgan, London Stock Exchange Group, Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group (MUFG), R3, State Street, SWIFT, VMware, and Wells Fargo. "Many of the founding members are already investing considerable research and development efforts exploring blockchain applications for industry. IBM intends to contribute tens of thousands of lines of its existing codebase and its corresponding intellectual property to this open source community. Digital Asset is contributing the Hyperledger mark, which will be used as the project name, as well as enterprise grade code and developer resources. R3 is contributing a new financial transaction architectural framework designed to specifically meet the requirements of its global bank members and other financial institutions. These technical contributions, among others from a variety of companies, will be reviewed in detail in the weeks ahead by the formation and Technical Steering Committees."

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Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 17, 2015 18:26 UTC (Thu) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] (25 responses)

Why not build on https://ethereum.org/

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 17, 2015 19:49 UTC (Thu) by mordocai (guest, #71668) [Link] (12 responses)

I'm not familiar with Etherium, but I'd imagine they don't build on that because doing so doesn't benefit the companies that run the Linux Foundation.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 17, 2015 20:26 UTC (Thu) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link] (11 responses)

Good token troll attempt, but no company runs the Linux Foundation. The Linux Foundation runs the Linux Foundation.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 17, 2015 20:35 UTC (Thu) by eternaleye (guest, #67051) [Link]

To quote Bradley Kuhn, trade associations are never neutral. On the difference between a 501(c)(3) charity and a 501(c)(6) trade association:
Ultimately, charities serve the public good. They can do nothing else, lest they run afoul of IRS rules. Trade associations serve the business interests of the companies that join them. They can do nothing else, lest they run afoul of IRS rules.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 17, 2015 21:35 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

These companies steer the Linux Foundation: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 10:04 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (8 responses)

Don't think what he said is a troll. Seems more like they're using a trusted organization to develop something across companies. I guess (cannot be bothered to fact check one bit) most already connected via the Linux Foundation so they use it also for this.

In Netherlands various news articles explained that banks are investigating the tech behind bitcoin (block chain) for themselves. That way they could use that instead of whatever is used now between banks. The interest is solely for their benefit, not so much about providing/creating a crypto currency.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 11:42 UTC (Fri) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] (7 responses)

Many banks are considering blockchain because of its distributed ledger setup -- everyone holds a full copy and it's infeasible to fake your books and lie about your position. While I have no trading desk experience, I can imagine that low periods occur while a trader has substantial net losses and is waiting to spot an uptick and the bonus that comes from a net-positive 3-month, 6-month or year-long accounting period.

K3n.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 17:29 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (6 responses)

For quite a few thousand years the standard approach to these things is the double-entry book keeping. Every time you add something somewhere there needs to be a minus somewhere else. When you crunch the numbers and everything balances out to zero then you know you have a accurate accounting.

When transferring money between banks and doing normal business activity they adjust money to the accounts all day long, but in the evening need to reconcile the accounts. Balance everything out between the various banks.

Previously to the internet you actually had bank representatives flying out from major financial hubs to meet one another in parking lots to exchange briefcases full of checks and whatnot.

Nowadays this is all handled electronically.

And often it's not what most people here would be proud of. A lot of transferring of account activity is done in a rather 'dirty' fashion involving FTP servers full of files of account details that are encrypted using PGP. Nightly batch jobs have banks pulling these files from one another and then processing the data. Often it can be a race to get everything done before morning and if there is a problem it can cause major headaches for customers... money that should be there isn't there. Money that shouldn't be there is there. Purchases never seemed to happen. Bills do not appear to be paid. You get late fees, debit cards get denied, people can't pay for lunch, trades that never happened... but then double-happen. All sorts of terrible things.

I suppose blockchains have the opportunity to revolutionize the financial industry. So that trades/purchases/transfers/etc are reconciled real time and in a globally auditable manner. Instead of depending on some byzantine, ad-hoc and fragile system of transferring pgp encrypted files and keys you have something that is automatic and standard.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 19, 2015 9:36 UTC (Sat) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (5 responses)

This is the correct answer. If you want to do an domestic bank transfer the reconciliation has to go via the countries central bank. International transfers have to go via something like the Bank of International Settlements. You currently have the situation where you sometimes cannot transfer money from Bank A to Bank B without going via another account. It's like the telephone system of 40 years ago. There are complete accounting departments in banks whose entire job is to find all the fuckups and correct them so the books balance.

The whole system is held together by spit and bailing wire, boxed by a lot of regulation and trust. Every country does it differently. So if someone proposes a system where there is a single public truth about whether a transaction happened or not, but with anonymity for the accounts so you can't see exactly how much everyone has, and standardised protocols to submit transactions, I'm not surprised the banks jump at the opportunity. Entire departments can be replaced by a computer in the corner checking the public ledger. The role of central banks would no longer be verifying banks are balancing the books, the banks (and private citizens) will be checking each other.

With the eventual goal of having international consumer bank transfers in under a minute, the current system cannot possibly support that.

As a side-effect, anybody should be able to start a "bank", because they no longer need to trust you're doing the right thing, they can simply verify all your transactions.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 19, 2015 10:41 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

It's more complicated.

Domestic bank transfers usually go through some kind of a central bank, so the speed and reliability of transfers completely depends on it. Some countries have good central banks (a typical transfer through the national bank in Ukraine takes _seconds_), other countries have extremely poorly implemented systems (USA, Germany).

Also, there are often certain legal requirements so banks have to maintain some kind of a minimum balance on their correspondent accounts in their national banks.

But international transfers are a whole different story (BIS actually has almost nothing to do with them directly). They go through correspondent accounts in different jurisdictions, sometimes through more than one intermediary. There's a typical transactional problem - all parties must agree to the transfer and then commit to it.

The problem is that traditionally SWIFT transfers are implemented exceedingly poor and require a lot of manual work in corner cases. And if a mistake happens, unwinding it often takes ridiculous amounts of time.

Blockchain can help with it, especially if banks can post their correspondent account amounts to the blockchain.

International transfers

Posted Dec 19, 2015 10:44 UTC (Sat) by karath (subscriber, #19025) [Link] (3 responses)

"This is the correct answer. If you want to do an domestic bank transfer the reconciliation has to go via the countries central bank. International transfers have to go via something like the Bank of International Settlements. You currently have the situation where you sometimes cannot transfer money from Bank A to Bank B without going via another account. It's like the telephone system of 40 years ago. There are complete accounting departments in banks whose entire job is to find all the fuckups and correct them so the books balance."

Correct that it is complicated, but the mechanism is not as described above. Note that my knowledge is 5 years out of date but progress in this sphere is glacial and for extremely good reasons - all banks globally have to be able to operate this system, whatever their technology level - even as few as 20 years ago, there were non-computerised banks.

Domestic transfers tend to go direct from bank to bank via a domestic messaging system that is overseen by the domestic central bank. This assumes that the sending bank and receiving bank have a pre-agreed 'correspondent relationship', which is often not the case in the USA due to its fragmented banking system, and therefore the payment must go via a third bank that both banks have a relationship with (and if they have no mutual relationship, then a 4th bank would have to be involved).

A correspondent relationship is where a bank operates a currency account on behalf of another bank, using a carefully agreed contractual process and often with manually face to face exchanged signing keys - note that the signing system was designed before public key encryption was widely available. A correspondent relationship is not often (even usually) not mutual. The bank and their correspondent bank reconcile their view of their accounts on varying frequencies - depending on the technology level of the bank. And separately reconcile the messages ordering payments into and out of the accounts.

Europe effectively has a continent wide domestic transfer system. International transfers usually go via the SWIFT messaging system and usually involve three banks in different roles. The usual roles are sender, sender's correspondent and receiver, but not infrequently, the sender's correspondent and the receiver are the same. When sending to USA, it there may need to be 4 banks involved as the sender's correspondent and the receiver may not have a correspondent relationship.

A blockchain ledger combined with public key encryption has the _potential_ to vastly simplify this process but only the potential. Various parties, not least the incumbent software suppliers, the messaging system operators and possibly even the smaller central banks and the largest governments have many incentives to resist any change.

International transfers

Posted Dec 22, 2015 22:09 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> Domestic transfers tend to go direct from bank to bank via a domestic messaging system that is overseen by the domestic central bank.

While BACS may be overseen by the Bank Of England, I don't believe it is part of the Bank (and note that the Bank Of England is itself a private company).

BACS has been in place - as a computerised exchange mechanism - since the seventies iirc, if not before. As I understand it, banks used to send a tape (or probably lots of tapes) to BACS in the evening, which basically contained a big list of interbank payments from the bank. BACS would then send those tapes back in the morning with a big list of interbank payments to the bank, and would reconcile the account as to which banks owed who what. Big customers could also deal with BACS directly - this was very common with large employers' payrolls.

As far as I'm aware, this has now become networked so transfers can be instant, but the basic principle hasn't changed - UK banks don't have correspondent relationships - they just hand off all interbank payments to BACS.

(And all the paperwork followed in the post - I think all cheques etc had to go "to the originating branch" and could well have just been posted directly there! However, since some while back I think banks have only had a few "clearing centres" and cheques got sent there. Nowadays, they're just scanned and the image is sent electronically.)

Cheers,
Wol

International transfers

Posted Dec 22, 2015 23:06 UTC (Tue) by TomH (subscriber, #56149) [Link]

The Bank of England has not been a private company since 1946 when it was nationalised. According to wikipedia since 1998 it has been an "independent public organisation, wholly owned by the Treasury Solicitor on behalf of the government".

International transfers

Posted Dec 23, 2015 0:33 UTC (Wed) by karath (subscriber, #19025) [Link]

It's over 20 years since I last really knew anything about BACS. However, there is still a need to authenticate the messages and therefore, in a concentrated banking system, like the UK, all but the most peripheral domestic banks will have exchanged signing keys, which is a major under-pinning of the operation of a correspondent banking relationship.

To get back on the original topic, I believe that the reason a blockchain technology is of interest to the banking community is to both cut out many of the middlemen and to reduce the amount of pre-processing (such as manual key exchange) and post-processing (reconciliation) of payment messaging.

However, the middlemen provide services, such as surveillance, that are important to governments and, in my opinion anyway, society at large. The surveillance is required for at least 4 different reasons including monitoring to ensure market/macro-economic stability, anti-money laundering, anti-terrorist funding and anti-market abuse by the banks.

A good blockchain solution for the banks must provide the desired cost reductions, maintain the privacy of the transactions and still allow the surveillance. And there are many other requirements that I haven't mentioned - honestly haven't even thought through. So there will likely be a huge exercise just to determine the use-cases and get, if not regulatory approval, then at least regulatory concurrence before committing to the final development. However, in the meantime, I'm sure that there is a lot of infrastructure that can be worked on.

Why not Ethereum? It's always about control

Posted Dec 17, 2015 20:59 UTC (Thu) by schessman (subscriber, #82966) [Link]

Not Invented Here usually means "We Want Control".

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 5:37 UTC (Fri) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (10 responses)

Frankly, I can't see how that would be at all useful to them. I think their interest in "design[ing] and issu[ing] their own cryptocurrency" is probably near nil. I suspect they're interested continuing to work with ordinary everyday government-issued currencies, rather than "gathering ether" to "pay the network".

Ok, cryptographically secure transactions would be nice, but that's only the <em>tiniest</em> part of what they need, and somehow, even if they'd heard of this thing before (I certainly hadn't), I suspect that they would not be particularly interested in depending on some not-industry-proven javascript-based protocol. And I don't its voting features are going to be much of a sell either. Traditional ledger systems usually have very little voting involved. And the whole crazy crypto-libertarian get-rich-quick odor the whole thing carries is unlikely to appeal to the kind of staid businessmen this system is presumably going to be targeting.

Bottom line, though, the main reasons they're probably not building on it are A) they've never heard of it, B) it's not included with any standard Linux distributions, and C) it doesn't pitch itself as the sort of thing they might find useful even if they had heard of it.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 10:48 UTC (Fri) by mtaht (subscriber, #11087) [Link]

When a technical idea finally makes the economist, I figure something big is afoot behind the scenes.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21677198-technology...

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 13:30 UTC (Fri) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] (8 responses)

A) they've never heard of it
I highly doubt that. Anyone closely following Bitcoin would have heard of Ethereum. If not, after a few minutes of googling words like crytocurrency and blockchain, it would have come up. Microsoft recently sponsored an Ethereum event knows all about it.
B) it's not included with any standard Linux distributions
Not yet but there's a PPA https://launchpad.net/~ethereum/+archive/ubuntu/ethereum so packaging is almost complete. I'm running it on Debian and Ubuntu.
C) it doesn't pitch itself as the sort of thing they might find useful even if they had heard of it.
It must be because they're reinventing it! I can't imagine an institution the size of IBM not going beyond the marketing material but I could be wrong.

For a high level see DEVCON1: Ethereum for Dummies - Dr. Gavin Wood and for something a bit more technical check out the white paper. https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/White-Paper

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 16:37 UTC (Fri) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (2 responses)

The original list left out...

D) Ethereum is GPL V3.

Not to mention

E) The project members don't want it to be associated with cryptocurrency efforts. The last thing companies like Wells Fargo and Accenture want is to be connected to efforts to replace sovereign-state currencies; they just want the chain-of-trust for the ledgers.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 20:28 UTC (Fri) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link] (1 responses)

D) Ethereum is GPL V3.
I didn't know the Linux Foundation was adverse to the GPL V3. That seems odd.
E) The project members don't want it to be associated with cryptocurrency efforts. The last thing companies like Wells Fargo and Accenture want is to be connected to efforts to replace sovereign-state currencies; they just want the chain-of-trust for the ledgers.
It is possible to have a crytocurrency on Ethereum but it would disingenuous to label it as such. As the white paper says:
Satoshi Nakamoto's development of Bitcoin in 2009 has often been hailed as a radical development in money and currency, being the first example of a digital asset which simultaneously has no backing or "intrinsic value" and no centralized issuer or controller. However, another, arguably more important, part of the Bitcoin experiment is the underlying blockchain technology as a tool of distributed consensus, and attention is rapidly starting to shift to this other aspect of Bitcoin. Commonly cited alternative applications of blockchain technology include using on-blockchain digital assets to represent custom currencies and financial instruments ("colored coins"), the ownership of an underlying physical device ("smart property"), non-fungible assets such as domain names ("Namecoin"), as well as more complex applications involving having digital assets being directly controlled by a piece of code implementing arbitrary rules ("smart contracts") or even blockchain-based "decentralized autonomous organizations" (DAOs). What Ethereum intends to provide is a blockchain with a built-in fully fledged Turing-complete programming language that can be used to create "contracts" that can be used to encode arbitrary state transition functions, allowing users to create any of the systems described above, as well as many others that we have not yet imagined, simply by writing up the logic in a few lines of code.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 18, 2015 21:32 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> I didn't know the Linux Foundation was adverse to the GPL V3. That seems odd.

Follow the money.

(for the record, I don't know the LF's position on GPLv3. I am acquainted with a number of the companies that make it up, however, so I'm pretty sure they're not as altruistic as they try to appear)

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 19, 2015 23:50 UTC (Sat) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (4 responses)

Anyone closely following Bitcoin would have heard of Ethereum.
So, in other words, I was right; they've probably never heard of it.

If not, after a few minutes of googling words like crytocurrency and blockchain
Words I expect there's approximately 0% chance they will have googled. And why would they?

Seriously, the fact that The Economist happened to mention blockchains in one article does not mean the world is suddenly bending over backwards to start using Bitcoin-related technology. General Ledgers are mature technology! Cloud technology is also getting mature. I think it's fairly certain they already have all the pieces they need to put this system together, without delving into random offerings of the Cryptocurrency Crank crowd.

It must be because they're reinventing it!
Ri-i-ight. It couldn't possibly be because some of the biggest business technology companies in the world already have all the technology they need to put this thing together. They must just be ignoring this "obvious" solution to all their problems!!!1! (Except for such minor problems as building a general ledger and all the tools that go with it, like AR/AP/Inventory/etc., and providing an upgrade path from all the existing GL software, and making sure the system is usable by your average accountant and meets all the necessary regulations for various governments across the globe. All that stuff is easy, but designing Yet Another Secure Transport layer (assuming they want another instead of any of the myriad of existing ones) is hard!)

For a high level see [...]
Ack, no thank you! I think you overestimated my interest in Ethereum by...well, you mistakenly assumed it was higher than zero. I'm interested in Ledger software because I've worked in the field, but this stuff? No. Just no.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 20, 2015 1:01 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

They're working on blockchain-related technologies and you don't see why they would have googled the word 'blockchain' at some point? Are you serious?

(The Economist has run major articles, including leaders and an entire special report, on bitcoin and cryptocurrencies by now. This is not 'one article'.)

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 20, 2015 1:05 UTC (Sun) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link]

No, you're right, I misread the article at first. My apologies. Still, they have a <em>lot</em> of technology already. Still, just because they're not necessarily using this particular technology doesn't mean they're reinventing the wheel. It's not like this is the only implementation out there. (For that matter, I don't see where it says they're not using this technology, but that's a separate question.)

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 20, 2015 8:40 UTC (Sun) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (1 responses)

To follow up: I just googled "blockchain" and didn't see anything about Etherium. The first page of results was almost all Bitcoin. But there was a nice Wikipedia article, and when I looked at that, it talked all about the older cryptocurrency-style blockchains, including Etherium, vs. the new "Blockchain 2.0" technologies, which are what are starting to attract business attention. In that category, names that were mentioned included Ripple/Interledger, OpenChain, MultiChain, Eris, Factom, and Strato. So if I were interested in building a distributed enterprise grade ledger on blockchain technology, I'd probably start by googling those, rather than Etherium, which is filed in the "altcoin" section.

Why not Ethereum?

Posted Dec 22, 2015 2:26 UTC (Tue) by flammon (guest, #807) [Link]

Ethereum is firmly in the 2.0 category and it's not about finances, it's about contracts. Currency just happens to be one possible type of contract.

From the Wikipedia page:

Ethereum was initially described by Vitalik Buterin in late 2013,[2] formally described by Gavin Wood in early 2014 in the so-called "yellow paper"[3] and launched 30 July 2015.[4] It is among a group of "next generation" (or "Bitcoin 2.0") platforms.[5]

Linux Foundation announces project to "advance blockchain technology"

Posted Dec 18, 2015 11:47 UTC (Fri) by willnewton (guest, #68395) [Link] (2 responses)

Enterprise grade == written in Java?

Enterprise grade

Posted Dec 19, 2015 7:04 UTC (Sat) by tstover (guest, #56283) [Link]

close. enterprise grade == "enterprisey"

...plus this like a design by committee special. I bet they start with UML diagrams :)

Linux Foundation announces project to "advance blockchain technology"

Posted Dec 20, 2015 4:55 UTC (Sun) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link]

Written in COBOL.


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