The GNU ethical repository criteria
The GNU ethical repository criteria
Posted Oct 17, 2015 19:05 UTC (Sat) by davidstrauss (guest, #85867)In reply to: The GNU ethical repository criteria by Karellen
Parent article: The GNU ethical repository criteria
You're misreading what I said, though. I quoted "ethical," meaning I think that I doubted the bona fides of some of the criteria as actually ethical in nature. I even named what I though wasn't germane to ethics, specifically requiring "GNU/Linux" terminology and promoting the GPLv3+. That was not a critique of judging hosts on ethical standards in general, including the many solid criteria that do exist in the FSF's rating scheme.
I've even walked-the-walk: I promoted Launchpad for years after they released their software under the AGPL, and I regularly use the FOSS version of GitLab for other projects.
Bottom line: I think ethical concerns for code hosting are important, but it's hard for me to take the FSF's scoring criteria seriously when they dock points for reasons that seem more about self-promotion than ethical principles.
Posted Oct 18, 2015 3:15 UTC (Sun)
by alkadim (guest, #104623)
[Link] (2 responses)
Where do they say that the are evaluating ethics?
> an "ethics" score for a repository hosting service
To call it "ethics score", or even "'ethics' score", is your own device.
What they have published is a list of criteria against which to judge
They never claim this to be a ruler (or "score", as you say) with which
By the way, the word "ethic" (and declensions) appears exactly once in
It appears twice in the FSF's announcement: in the body of the
> Quite a bit of editorial nitpicking for a evaluation that's based on
By now your writing is starting to strike me as disingenuous. It seems
What's ethical or not is the service.
Furthermore, nowhere do they claim these criteria to be a "canon" or
So, although the initiative is based in ethical principles (as
> This has nothing to do with the FSF's own choice of terminology.
Can you now see that indeed it has?
Even so, you must surely know that for the FSF (and for me, for example)
> I also can't believe this is still a thing: "Avoids saying 'Linux'
Considering what I already said, this, to me, is nothing but frustration
Also, for me, the work GNU (and FSF) *does* *is* critical. It's in
Posted Oct 18, 2015 5:01 UTC (Sun)
by davidstrauss (guest, #85867)
[Link] (1 responses)
In the title: "GNU ethical repository criteria."
> To call it "ethics score", or even "'ethics' score", is your own device.
It assigns a grade letter and potential "extra credit" to any repository hosting site evaluated using it. How is that not a score?
> It appears twice in the FSF's announcement: in the body of the article it, again, very clearly refers to the services in evaluation. The other one is in the title and the usage here may be ambiguous. But you did read the actual criteria listing, right? You quoted from it, so you must have.
Indeed, ethics is about the services being evaluated.
However, though all this back-and-forth, and still no one has explained why a service like GitLab using the term "GNU/Linux" has anything to do with giving them an "A" for the ethics of their software or service. (And, yes, I've read the RMS essay on the necessity of "GNU/Linux." It argues the term's use for advocacy purposes and doesn't mention "ethics" at all.)
> So you cannot be confused about it.
Please drop the sarcasm and ad hominem attacks. They don't really help the discussion.
> It seems to me that you're construing your own narrative, making it pass for the FSF's, then criticising it.
There's no narrative here, just a documented titled to be ethical criteria that includes other FSF goals that have nothing to do with ethics. I don't appreciate an organization implying that certain things are less ethical (by assigning a lower letter grade) for such silly reasons. It really undermines the authority of the document.
> What's ethical or not is the service.
Of course, but I don't see why a service can only earn an "A" by meeting other FSF goals (promoting "GNU/Linux" terminology and promoting the FSF's licenses). It'd be like an HTTPS/TLS testing tool only giving a site an "A" if you use their preferred certificate authority.
> Furthermore, nowhere do they claim these criteria to be a "canon" or "standard". It says very clearly (in both web sites) that they were developed by the GNU project *directed at the GNU project*, and *recommended for anyone else*. How did you miss that?
I didn't miss anything, but enough with the ad hominems.
First, the document includes criteria that would be irrelevant to hosting a GNU project. Why does it matter what licenses a site recommends if every GNU project is already required to use GNU licenses? Clearly, some of the criteria -- like that one -- were written only with consideration of non-GNU projects using the hosting service. So, use by other external projects is more than just an afterthought.
Second, the FSF (and RMS in particular) have routinely portrayed their ethics as canon, at least in the major essays. In "Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software" [1], Stallman claims that using FSF terminology is essential because, "If you want to stand up for freedom, using a neutral term isn't the way." That's not really leaving much room for difference of opinion. The message is clear (via modus tollens of the quote): if I don't follow the FSF's terminology guidance, I don't stand up for freedom, at least for software. In general, FSF ethics have not shown moral relativism, and I don't see why these criteria would be different.
Finally, saying an ethical system doesn't insist on being canon is, perhaps, the weakest possible defense because it doesn't defend the value or integrity of the system, just that there's the option to defect.
> So, although the initiative is based in ethical principles (as everything the FSF does and was well explained by Karellen) why can't they include their own suggestions, guidelines, directives, opinions? If you ask me, I'll tell you that all the published criteria align very well with the FSF's ethical leitmotiv anyway.
Because it reduces the authority -- and thus usefulness -- of the document. I *want* criteria like these to point to, but I don't feel like some of the requirements are actually germane to software freedom. Nor can I create my own, modified version without those items, given the CC-BY-ND license on it.
When I read the last steps (to achieve an "A"), and they require using "GNU/Linux" and promoting the GPLv3+, I feel like I'm reading a recipe from Kraft that tells me the final step is to add Velveeta(R) cheese. I feel sold-to. We live in a cynical world, and selling a fresh helping of your own brand as part of a document cheapens the entire document.
Years ago, I worked with SETI to release their signal-analysis software under a free software license. I argued for them to not put it on GitHub because that service is proprietary. I don't feel like the FSF's full set of criteria would have helped me make the case better. And now -- here on LWN -- I'm trying to explain why.
[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-poin...
Posted Oct 19, 2015 3:17 UTC (Mon)
by alkadim (guest, #104623)
[Link]
Well, my reading does not suggest at all that they are "evaluating ethics",
> > To call it "ethics score", or even "'ethics' score", is your own device.
It's a score, alright, but you're tying score to "ethics". I can't see how you
> There's no narrative here, just a documented titled to be ethical criteria...
Well, you see, we disagree then. You again tie ethics to the criteria and
> ...still no one has explained why a service like GitLab using the term
It's their criteria, for their projects. I see no problem. And you already
> [...]
I consider this inapplicable, this is not an ethical system.
In general, I get the impression that you want take these criteria in the
That's all I have to say. Cheers.
The GNU ethical repository criteria
code-hosting services. Services which meet such criteria are considered
ethical (by the FSF, the GNU project, and anyone else agreeing).
to measure how much or less ethical a service is.
the actual list of criteria (at gnu.org), in the title: "GNU ethical
repository criteria". Just how do you manage to jump to "ethics score"?
article it, again, very clearly refers to the services in evaluation.
The other one is in the title and the usage here may be ambiguous. But
you did read the actual criteria listing, right? You quoted from it, so
you must have. So you cannot be confused about it.
> "ethics," right?
to me that you're construing your own narrative, making it pass for
the FSF's, then criticising it.
"standard". It says very clearly (in both web sites) that they were
developed by the GNU project *directed at the GNU project*, and
*recommended for anyone else*. How did you miss that?
everything the FSF does and was well explained by Karellen) why can't
they include their own suggestions, guidelines, directives, opinions?
If you ask me, I'll tell you that all the published criteria align very
well with the FSF's ethical leitmotiv anyway.
it's not /simply/ terminology. (The manner in which "open source" is so
easily co-opted tells me that I should be careful with the words I use
because I care about what I mean.)
> without 'GNU' when referring to GNU/Linux." It's turning into some...
>
> The work GNU did was critical to the success of modern Linux-based
> systems, but don't they have more important things to do today than
> judge repository hosting by such "ethical" concerns...
discharge (you know what I mean). You seem very annoyed at the FSF
continuing to pursue what the FSF always has.
present tense.
The GNU ethical repository criteria
>
> What they have published is a list of criteria against which to judge code-hosting services. Services which meet such criteria are considered ethical (by the FSF, the GNU project, and anyone else agreeing).
>
> They never claim this to be a ruler (or "score", as you say) with which to measure how much or less ethical a service is.
> [...]
> By now your writing is starting to strike me as disingenuous.
The GNU ethical repository criteria
>
> In the title: "GNU ethical repository criteria."
they are evaluating services ("ethical repository"). As a result of the
evaluation the service might be considered ethical, or not. It's a boolean
thing.
> >
> > ...
>
> It assigns a grade letter and potential "extra credit" to any repository
> hosting site evaluated using it. How is that not a score?
arrive at that. The way I read it, the quality of a service being ethical is
boolean, the gradient (score or rating) is not ethics, it's, say, preference.
The only point at which that gradient necessarily crosses "ethics" is in the
Acceptable grade. If a service scores at least Acceptable, then it's ethical.
And that's all.
consider them a ruler for ethics. This is not what I understand from the text.
> "GNU/Linux" has anything to do with giving them an "A"...
>
> I don't see why a service can only earn an "A" by meeting other FSF goals
> (promoting "GNU/Linux" terminology and promoting the FSF's licenses).
>
> [...]
>
> > ...why can't they include their own suggestions, guidelines, directives,
> > opinions?
>
> Because it reduces the authority -- and thus usefulness -- of the document.
gave a fair reason: advocacy.
>
> Finally, saying an ethical system doesn't insist on being canon is...
abstract, as a sort of philosophical treatise (excuse the perhaps stretched
analogy). I see them as a tool, a practical device to address a real ethical
concern.
