|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Devuan progress report

The people behind the Devuan project have released a progress report. Devuan is a fork of Debian without systemd. A repository has been set up at GitLab. "This is the most recent achievement on infrastructure development: last night the first devuan-baseconf package was built correctly through our continuous integration infrastructure, pulling directly from our source repository."

to post comments

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 23, 2014 20:44 UTC (Tue) by yann.morin.1998 (guest, #54333) [Link] (3 responses)

And their GitLab https://git.devuan.org/ is not publicly visible. Sigh...

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 7:45 UTC (Wed) by stybla (subscriber, #64681) [Link] (2 responses)

> And their GitLab https://git.devuan.org/ is not publicly visible. Sigh...

Actually, it is publicly visible and accessible - https://git.devuan.org/explore

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 9:50 UTC (Wed) by yann.morin.1998 (guest, #54333) [Link] (1 responses)

> https://git.devuan.org/explore

Ah, great, thanks! :-) Too bad the announcement points to the registration page (or too bad the homepage for GitLab is the registration page).

Could our grumpy editor update the link in the article to point to that location, please?

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 16:06 UTC (Wed) by ris (subscriber, #5) [Link]

> Could our grumpy editor update the link in the article to point to that location, please?

The link has been updated.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 23, 2014 21:38 UTC (Tue) by rriggs (guest, #11598) [Link] (68 responses)

Is it me or is most of that update about how they are re-inventing systemd? This is starting to look like the setup to the most complicated April Fools joke ever.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 23, 2014 22:22 UTC (Tue) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

You got it in one. The post is about their build infrastructure coming into production - a significant step.

As Churchill once said: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 23, 2014 23:26 UTC (Tue) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link] (59 responses)

So is upstart or something else along these lines an option in devuan? I ask because as a sysadmin running a pile of Ubuntu, upstartd is pretty much, if not the right answer, a righter one than rolling a shell script myself every time. Something along these lines - because mostly you have a very limited list of things you want your init script to do - is about the right answer. Is upstart less invasive than systemd? Is there an even less invasive alternative?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 23, 2014 23:58 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

Upstart is at this point basically dead in the water. According to its former lead developer it needs a redesign to work around some pretty significant bugs, and so far nobody of consequence seems to be interested to the point of putting in actual work towards this. Even the Canonical people don't like it anymore.

The Devuan people are of course free to pick Upstart up and run with it, but that may be biting off more than they can chew, and it may not be worth it in the end.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 15:56 UTC (Wed) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link] (1 responses)

Yeah, I know. Hence wondering about "something along these lines".

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 17:05 UTC (Wed) by seyman (subscriber, #1172) [Link]

> Yeah, I know. Hence wondering about "something along these lines".

This is just my opinion but anything that would be like a fixed upstart would look so much like systemd that the Devuan people would reject it outright.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 0:50 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (55 responses)

systemd works better with sysvinit scripts than sysvinit. Tools like service(1) continue to work just fine. /dev/initctl and utmp/wtmp still work. fstab works fine. syslog works better than before (logs early boot messages). crond, atd etc. work. In what world does this qualify as "invasive"?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 15:01 UTC (Wed) by ermo (subscriber, #86690) [Link] (49 responses)

It doesn't. And that's not the point.

If I were to venture a guess (and that guess is strictly my own) I think people want to feel in control of their own system(s), which is in and of itself not an unreasonable wish to harbor.

Systemd is perceived to be akin to an aggressive invader, which conquers territory previously held by independent warlords and unites these territories under one aegis, forcing everyone to abide by new rules and customs.

Like the Romans, systemd came, saw and conquered and in the process is creating a new kind of civilization. If you were previously a king of your own territory and was one day confronted by a well-equipped and superior force and told that you had to bend your knee to the new Emperor of a far-away land, odds are that you'd feel threatened too.

To the proponents of the Empire, systemd simply makes sense and was engineered from the outset as a different and better (for a suitable definition of 'better') solution to well known problems. To its detractors and enemies, it can be perceived to represent a different and potentially dangerous way of doing things than they're used to, which carries with it a serious risk of both loss of identity, control and perhaps even their day job.

I'm sure a sufficiently motivated detractor could also come up with a laundry list of technical reasons why systemd is not the right tool for the job, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to them to waste their breath anyway.

I'm in the systemd-is-a-good-thing camp, by the way.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 16:05 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (42 responses)

Now, that's way over the top. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why systemd is a misdesigned piece of crap and I'm none too fond of Lennart either, but your comparisons are completely beyond the pale. Do you realize just what and whom are you likening them to?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 21:07 UTC (Wed) by ermo (subscriber, #86690) [Link] (7 responses)

Of course it is over the top. The way some people have reacted in the whole systemd debacle is way out of proportion in my opinion. I simply offered the point of view that these people could have felt threatened and gave an overwrought analogy to illustrate how.

People are free to agree or disagree with the design goals and decisions of systemd and the distributions who have adopted it. Some (like HelloWorld) can't for the life of them understand why people wouldn't like systemd. Others can't for the life of them understand why anyone would accept systemd being installed on their systems.

And both are ok from my perspective.

Besides, it's fine if you don't like the analogy or don't think that it applies to you or anyone you know. For my part, I've seen people post stuff where I was asking myself if Lennart had personally killed their dog and their grandmother or something.

That's the Internet for you.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 21:54 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (6 responses)

*snort*

So, unless I'm misreading you, it was intended as a slightly veiled reverse Godwin? Lovely tactics, that...

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 23:25 UTC (Wed) by ermo (subscriber, #86690) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm afraid that I'm far less advanced than what you give me credit for. Besides, Godwin's Law was already invoked in the present comments section with that (IMHO hilarious) Hitler spoof video.

But as that video touches upon, the fact remains that some Linux users would rather keep what they have (distro-specific sysvrc scripts etc. or the independent kingdoms in my analogy) while others would rather enjoy the benefits of a unified plumbing layer (systemd or the Roman Empire with its engineering advances in my analogy) with the expectation that it will free up resources which can then be used to good effect elsewhere.

My only point is that it appears to me that to *some* people, systemd is effectively messing with something to which they are rather emotionally attached, to the point that it makes them disproportionally angry about it.

Of course, there are also apparently plenty of pragmatic admins out there who would -- it seems -- simply prefer not to have to deal with something new and (from their perspective) untested, when what they already have works well enough to get the job done _for them_.

Again, I don't personally get all that worked up over it. And I think it's great that Devuan exists so that people who don't care for being 'forced' to have systemd installed on their Debian systems can channel their energy into something constructive. Good on them.

(If you still wish to educate me on why my original post was in poor taste, I'm happy to listen, though I humbly suggest we take the exchange somewhere else.)

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 5:02 UTC (Sun) by malor (guest, #2973) [Link] (4 responses)

>while others would rather enjoy the benefits of a unified plumbing layer (systemd or the Roman Empire with its engineering advances in my analogy)

Note, however, that the Romans used lead piping.... and there are (literal, not figurative) suspicions that the subsequent mental impairment of the population was a significant factor in the fall of that civilization.

Not all engineering is good.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 13:02 UTC (Sat) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (3 responses)

> Note, however, that the Romans used lead piping.... and there are
> (literal, not figurative) suspicions that the subsequent mental
> impairment of the population was a significant factor in the fall of that
> civilization.

Yes, but there's some other ones:

a) The invading peoples did not quite grasp why you would need cities. For them, living in small hamlets was enough.

b) The invading religion (Christianity) was preaching that the stay on this world was only temporary, and thus the building of huge cities and whatnot wasn't really necessary or even desirable.

Add these together, and you get a population that's leaving Rome for the countryside and the "simple life".

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 18:22 UTC (Sat) by malor (guest, #2973) [Link] (2 responses)

OK, so, they were being stupid.... this isn't exactly a disproof of 'lead piping makes you stupid'.

Rather, I'd call that a reinforcement of the underlying thesis that the poor engineering decisions made by the technical teams had a truly outsize impact on the decline of that civilization.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 17:15 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

There's actually a some evidence that the Roman beaurocracy outgrew the ability of the Empire to sustain it. And that the start of the decline is closely linked to what is thought to be the first oubreak of smallpox.

Basically, because the various parts of the empire had become too specialised, and sickness knocked out vital components, the Empire became dysfunctional, and collapsed. The comparison is made with the Black Death where, because everything was very localised, any disruption was also local.

What would happen to us if something suddenly disrupted our transport infrastructure? Imagine an incident knocking out half the world's petroleum refineries? (That actually happened to a vital computer component - disk drives - only a few years ago.)

Lead piping isn't a threat in many areas. London had lead piping and there wasn't a concerted attempt to replace it til the 60s or so because it wasn't a problem - it probably needed replacing by then because it was all furred up :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 19:16 UTC (Sun) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

FWIW, they kept municipia imitating the normal polis structures, while turning them into tax collection mechanisms. There had been fewer and fewer benefits in belonging to one - back in the 2nd century it was still considered something to strive for, but by the beginning of the 4th it was a burden to avoid. That drove the migration to countryside; the imperial government had very much noticed it and hadn't been in the slightest happy about it (shrinking tax base and growing influence of local magnates), but they'd never done anything efficient to counteract that. It crippled even the big cities; the smaller ones were getting really buggered. Invasions also didn't help, of course, but the internal problems had been quite nasty much earlier...

As for the collapse... Keep in mind that the eastern half had outlived that, so unless you claim that specialization in the western provinces had been much deeper *and* that travel between them and the eastern ones had been seriously disrupted by the same event, your explanation doesn't work.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 26, 2014 16:01 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (4 responses)

Yeah. He's explicitly likening systemd to the Roman Empire, which wrought enormous changes in Europe, influencing so many customs that the civilizations in the territories conquered had a 'Roman shade' for long after they were gone. They were seen as the ancients worthy of imitation for fifteen hundred years after the fall of the Western Empire.

It's not actually *bad* to be compared to the Roman Empire -- but it did suck to be a lesser power being mown down by the Imperial machine in its pomp. It's just that fifty years later life was much better for the average person in that territory.

Not everything always has to be about the Nazis. (Except, of course, insofar as they too showed the abiding influence of the Roman Empire by explicitly harking back to it! They were wildly different, of course: most of the Nazis' many loathsome characteristics, such as extreme racial intolerance, were notable only by their absence in the Empire. Basically anyone could become a Roman citizen as long as they hadn't been closely associated with a rebellion or contending non-Roman state.)

The comparison is way over the top, but I can see the point of it.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 26, 2014 16:27 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (3 responses)

Just from the words in your comment it is clear the Roman empire's legacy today still influences not just those regions it had conquered, but far beyond (given where LWN is located, and the breadth of its readership). ;)

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 26, 2014 17:05 UTC (Fri) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link] (2 responses)

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 26, 2014 19:21 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Uh, they brought peace reg? ;)

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 31, 2014 15:22 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

You forgot ASCII.

(Ooops! it was the Latin alphabet, but it was close).

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 27, 2014 23:59 UTC (Sat) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (28 responses)

You keep calling systemd a misdesigned piece of crap. Care to tell us why? Because you're certainly not not going to get anybody to listen to your concerns that way. Since you say that there's a lot of reasons for calling it that, it shouldn't be hard to explain a few in a way that doesn't insult people and is comprehensible to an average developer.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 3:33 UTC (Sun) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (4 responses)

* massive dbus traffic originating at PID 1
* push model instead of pull one ("I need to know something, therefore I'll keep broadcasting it to everyone, whether they can get the same information themselves just as easily or not, and I won't delegate that to anyone, because I must be the source of all reality" is annoying as hell in a PHB and is just as bad in software as in wetware)
* scalability is something that happened to other people; it's not only isn't paid any attention to in implementation (if you run into a bottleneck, you are doing something wrong), it's not even a design consideration. The whole thing is a massive point of contention, exactly because it insists on doing tons of stuff out of PID 1 *and* driving tons of information over dbus.
BTW, it's still trivial to have a single syscall generate many megabytes of traffic; syscall itself being very fast (and easily repeated over and over). mount("/mnt/foo", "/mnt/bar", NULL, MS_BIND, NULL); will do it - it's constant-time and pretty fast, while the amount of traffic is O(mountpoints under /mnt/foo). mount("/mnt/bar", "/mnt/foo", NULL, MS_BIND, NULL) restores the original situation, with the same costs, both kernel-side and for systemd.
* lots of ordinary sloppiness, compounded by the "never seen an API we wouldn't like" syndrome they seem to have. For example, check the uses of open_by_handle_at(2) in their tree and ask yourself whether they are warranted... I'm not saying that open_by_handle() is inherently bad - I wouldn't have helped getting it into the tree if I thought so, but in this case it's badly misused.
... and many, many other issues.

I have no idea why they insist on such a design, but they _do_ insist on it. They are shoving way too much into PID 1, and philosophy be damned, it is a bad technical decision. And no, I'm not going to take cheap shots about the psychological issues leading to that - too easy and there's no way to estimate the accuracy.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 4:32 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

> * massive dbus traffic originating at PID 1
?
Systemd's own DBUS usage is pretty mild. It's pretty much optional - you CAN boot a system without a system-wide DBUS bus running.

The fact that systemd have chosen DBUS as their RPC protocol is neutral - it's neither bad nor good.

> * push model instead of pull one
Isn't an event model better than constant polling from many standpoints?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 20:00 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

I think Al's point isn't that "push is better than poll", it's that PID1 is privileged, and can bring the entire system down with a single mistake.

It's a mindset issue. I'm - a database guy, and data does NOT come in rows and columns :-) Al is a kernel guy, and you can't program PID1 with a user-space mindset ...

Different people have different mindsets (in that sometimes they just can NOT see what to someone else is obvious), and while I think the systemd guys are quite happy to fix problems after the event, Al feels quite strongly that many of these problems should have been forseen *before* the event and never happened.

Have you never found yourself screaming at your colleagues - literally or in frustrated silence - "don't do that!", only to see everything come crashing down some time later for precisely the reasons you forsaw? The obvious systemd example is where several people found their systems collapsing because logging wasn't optimised, and on a system where near 100% of CPU is devoted to logging it's not a good idea to suddenly massively increase the proportion of CPU required ... :-)

I'm not coming down on either side in this debate, but I can see where Al's coming from - there seems to be far too much "suck it and see" in the systemd camp, and not enough planning and forethought. The end result is worth it, but there's too much unnecessary pain on the way ...

Cheers,
Wol

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 21:01 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> I'm not coming down on either side in this debate, but I can see where Al's coming from - there seems to be far too much "suck it and see" in the systemd camp, and not enough planning and forethought. The end result is worth it, but there's too much unnecessary pain on the way ...

Yeah, I can see where Viro is coming from too, but (and here I'm going to generalize a bit) it's disappointing to see objections-of-principle to a design that don't seem to take into consideration what said design is trying to accomplish, to say nothing of proposing some sort of alternative that might accomplish the same goals. Instead the goals (ie the validity of the problem) are rejected outright.

Yes, I accept that this blade cuts both ways, but given how technically ruthless kernel development tends to be, one should at least be willing to listen to (and consider/accept the validity of) technical arguments on their merits when talking about other parts of a system.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 28, 2014 22:30 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Fixing the problem Al referred to is trivial: don't broadcast PID 1's idea of the complete mount table whenever mounts change. In fact, because that table cannot be relied on by anyone but PID 1 (due to multiple filesystem namespaces, in Linux for over a decade), this broadcast is useless. It seems that parsing /proc/$pid/mountinfo was seen as "too hard", thus *obviously*, since all they have is a hammer and all things are solved via broadcasts from systemd, the right thing to do is parse once and broadcast it! Never minds that the broadcast is useless.

The right solution is obviously to poll /proc/$pid/mountinfo and wrap up the parsing code in a library -- not mess around with broadcasts of useless crap like systemd does. Either the people who implemented this didn't know about fs namespaces (which is inexcusable in someone working on widely-used software at this level), or they didn't see the problem (*think*!) or they didn't care (which is even more inexcusable, but quite possible -- after all, major distros didn't use fs namespaces much so who cares if they're rendered useless? sigh).

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 2:19 UTC (Sat) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link] (22 responses)

I can proffer my opinion of why it is horribly misdesigned in just one sentence. Systemd is orders of magnitude more complex than it needs to be.

Whoever said Linux is being invaded by Windows refugees is not far from the mark.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 14:36 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (15 responses)

Systemd is orders of magnitude more complex than it needs to be.

If you compare systemd with the hodgepodge of stuff it replaces, it is a lot less complex than the sum total of the various bits that need to come together to do the same thing. For example, in systemd there is a unified and reasonably sane format for configuration files, as opposed to the wild zoo of file formats, no two of which are the same, that the traditional setup uses. In addition, systemd has robust facilities to separate configuration defaults provided by the distribution from local customisations – which is something that the traditional setup doesn't address at all, but which is well worth a reasonable amount of “complexity”. If anything, the traditional setup usually sidesteps that sort of thing by off-loading it to the shell, which in itself is a fairly complex piece of engineering (especially if, as in many distributions, it is the Bourne-again shell), and this leads to setups that, being procedural rather than declarative as in systemd, are harder to maintain and more difficult to update as well as generally less featureful – if you want any fancy stuff you get to implement it yourself (and to figure out how to maintain it in a sustainable manner in the face of distribution updates), and that again increases complexity because other people need to figure out exactly what you have done, instead of relying on the common and well-documented infrastructure afforded by systemd.

Generally, in systemd, the components work together a lot better than in the traditional setup. In the traditional setup, a basic facility like the launching of service processes is implemented in half a dozen different ways depending on whether it is init doing the launching (via /etc/inittab or an init script), (x)inetd, cron, or at, where systemd basically does it one way, with the same configuration options everywhere, and much less superfluous duplication of code.

The traditional setup looks less complex because much of the complexity is pushed into the service processes. For example, with System-V init, a process like Apache or BIND is responsible for its own “daemonisation” – it needs to go through an intricate song-and-dance routine to ensure that it is a direct child of PID 1, all its standard I/O channels are closed, etc. The code to do this is basically reinvented over and over again in every daemon, with different features and configuration methods. Systemd reasonably offers this as part of the basic infrastructure so the authors of service processes no longer need to reinvent the wheel, and systemd affords lots of very powerful resource management and security options that the authors of service processes usually do not bother to implement at all. Putting them all into systemd ensures that this infrastructure is audited, debugged, and documented a lot better than if it is left to the implementers of individual background services, and any bugs can be fixed once in one place.

To sum up, “systemd is way too complex” is a short-sighted argument that neglects the fact that pulling common basic functionality out into the underlying infrastructure may make that infrastructure somewhat more complex but will often considerably simplify the rest of the system. There is a reason why, e.g., the C library includes routines like “printf()”, which is a very complex and versatile function that few if any programs use to its full extent, but which would otherwise have to be reinvented in an incompatible (and probably buggy) manner by any program that wanted to do formatted output. Systemd is, at first sight, more complex than something like System-V init, which can afford to be very simple because it does basically nothing. Systemd is not more complex than the mess of things it replaces, which includes components like inetd, cron, and loads of non-standardised distribution-specific bits and pieces that work together more by accident than by design.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 20:05 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (6 responses)

> For example, with System-V init, a process like Apache or BIND is responsible for its own “daemonisation” – it needs to go through an intricate song-and-dance routine to ensure that it is a direct child of PID 1, all its standard I/O channels are closed, etc. The code to do this is basically reinvented over and over again in every daemon, with different features and configuration methods.

Every distro worth its salt solved this approximately ten years ago with start-stop-daemon.

But it's consistent that systemd is ignoring a decade of progress to claim it as its own.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 20:51 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

Nope. start-stop-daemon does NOT do the daemonization song-and-dance, it merely tracks the PID of the started process.

Also, blergh. Start-stop-daemon is one the utilities that is so convoluted that it's often easier to do all the work yourself.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 22:31 UTC (Sat) by rleigh (guest, #14622) [Link] (3 responses)

You can with "--background --make-pidfile" for programs which don't daemonise by themselves.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 23:04 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

Nope, it doesn't. Or to be more precise, '--background' is close to useless:

> "Typically used with programs that don’t detach on their own. This option will force start−stop−daemon to fork before starting the process, and force it into the background. WARNING: start−stop−daemon cannot check the exit status if the process fails to execute for any reason. This is a last resort, and is only meant for programs that either make no sense forking on their own, or where it’s not feasible to add the code for them to do this themselves."

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 23:29 UTC (Sat) by rleigh (guest, #14622) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, it has caveats. But support *is* present.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 23:33 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

That statement actually describes the whole SysV init infrastructure pretty perfectly.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 1:44 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

start-stop-daemon is exactly the sort of cobbled-together band-aid-and-baling-wire type of thing that makes the traditional setup suck so badly. At first glance it looks as if it could save service processes from having to do their own daemonisation but it really doesn't – for example, it can launch a service process into the background but it cannot track whether that operation actually succeeds (and even its own documentation urges people to not use this feature if it can at all be avoided).

Also, like many service processes themselves, start-stop-daemon uses a PID file for process tracking, which may lead to problems with PID duplication and in 2014 is frankly no longer the state of the art. (It is better to not even think about its other MO where if a service process is to be stopped it tries to “killall” likely-looking processes by name.) We can do a lot better now – and should!

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 11:02 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (7 responses)

Actually you don't need to daemonise with SysV init. SysV init was quite capable of managing processes itself directly via inittab. Real System V's, i.e. Unixware, AIX, etc., ran many service processes directly from init or from a sub-system specific super-daemon.

One of the most laughable or annoying parts about the Systemd debate is pretty much *all* of those decrying Sys V init seem to know nothing about it.

And yes, init scripts that required processes to daemonise were just racy and inherently broken for corner-cases.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 13:56 UTC (Sun) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link] (5 responses)

People are using the word "sysv init" to mean how system starting has *actually* been done for the last n years.

Everyone knows that inittab exists, but what difference does that make? Nothing but Getty uses it.. It's basically unusably featureless -- ordering, dependencies, and ability to start/stop were added to the hacked up sysvinit rc script system instead.

Why do you think people should be talking about how systemd is better than a hypothetical way the sysvinit system might work, but doen't? That'd be silly.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 16:16 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (4 responses)

"People are using the word "sysv init" to mean how system starting has *actually* been done for the last n years ..."

" ... on their favourite Linux" distro, you forgot to add.

Look, I'm not arguing that inittab was perfect (though, inittab traditionally did have support for at least 2-way partial ordering of processes managed; and other unixes have tools to control services rather than editing inittab). Nor am I arguing against systemd, the core init is a useful step forward IMO. What gets my goat is the endless discussions about whether systemd is better than init scripts, where in too many cases *both* parties are just ignorant of what went before (though anselm is quite aware of inittab and presumably super-daemons, but then tries to characterise these as part of the hodge-podge of processes handling their own daemonisation).

On the one hand, init scripts + daemonisation clearly were racy & broken. Daemonisation generally is a bad idea, for all but a core set of ultra-reliable, management processes really. This is precisely *why* _actual_, long extant, System V Unixes made much heavier use of super-daemons for managing services as child processes. For serial port / tty management (sacttymon) and network socket activation most widely and notably. I'm almost sure some SysVs took it much further, AIX I thought particularly, but I don't quite remember and can't check. Om Linux, the DBus-daemon was able to act as a super-daemon and bus-activate processes, well before systemd.

The problem was of course that this didn't address managing all the other services that did their own daemonisation.

On the other hand then, Linux finally acquired an API to allow daemonised processes and their children to be "contained" and not escape a management process and systemd used this to fix the racy management issues. Great!

However, the systemd developers also tried to re-engineer every other aspect of the world (and continue to do so) and make fantastic claims as they did so. E.g. that socket activation would make hard-coded dependencies a thing of the past [note: I'm very much a fan of demand-activated services, but socket-level is just too limited a level to achieve that]. Or almost implying that systemd more or less invented all of this. That kind of behaviour isn't always endearing. Worse, we've had to go through many blinkered discussions by proponents of various sides, with a somewhat uncomfortable heat:light ratio at times, even here on LWN. It's not just the systemd haters contributing to the heat, those more on the systemd side have been guilty of it too, e.g. in misrepresenting the past.

Anyway, I've gone on a bit of a rambling rant. Sorry ;)

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 17:48 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (3 responses)

"E.g. that socket activation would make hard-coded dependencies a thing of the past "

Where? Lennart's first blog post introducing systemd is at

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html

It mentions both socket activation and provides a means to hard core dependencies.

"systemd supports several kinds of dependencies between units. After/Before can be used to fix the ordering how units are activated. It is completely orthogonal to Requires and Wants, which express a positive requirement dependency, either mandatory, or optional. Then, there is Conflicts which expresses a negative requirement dependency. Finally, there are three further, less used dependency types."

"Or almost implying that systemd more or less invented all of this. That kind of behaviour isn't always endearing. "

Where? The blog post referenced earlier pretty clearly states otherwise

"But first, let's clear a few things up: is this kind of logic new? No, it certainly is not. The most prominent system that works like this is Apple's launchd system: on MacOS the listening of the sockets is pulled out of all daemons and done by launchd. The services themselves hence can all start up in parallel and dependencies need not to be configured for them. And that is actually a really ingenious design, and the primary reason why MacOS manages to provide the fantastic boot-up times it provides. I can highly recommend this video where the launchd folks explain what they are doing. Unfortunately this idea never really took on outside of the Apple camp."

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 18:06 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

I was exercising some amount of hyperbole, but systemd devs did in the earlier days heavily tout socket activation as being the answer to manual dependencies. E.g. https://lwn.net/Articles/389368/ or https://lwn.net/Articles/390060/ . Further, my understanding was that Lennart in the design of systemd very much did not want explicit encoding of dependencies anywhere (e.g. see https://lwn.net/Articles/390108/) other than some basic services for boot. The idea, I had the impression, being that socket activation would get rid of that need for many services. AFAIK, that hasn't worked out.

I don't fault Lennart for being keen on socket activation (I think it's great myself) though.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 18:23 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

"I was exercising some amount of hyperbole,"

Quite a bit of it to the point of being entirely misleading I am afraid. The part about systemd developers claiming that they invented socket activation was unjustified and exactly the opposite of what they have said from day 1.

Socket activation and other techniques have resulted in distribution provided services using hard coded dependencies pretty minimally as well exactly as claimed.

"Oh, and on misrepresenting the past, well the quote you provided, "Unfortunately this idea never really took on outside of the Apple camp", is a good example!"

How?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 18:08 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Oh, and on misrepresenting the past, well the quote you provided, "Unfortunately this idea never really took on outside of the Apple camp", is a good example!

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 4, 2015 15:36 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

Actually you don't need to daemonise with SysV init. SysV init was quite capable of managing processes itself directly via inittab.

Which is such a clunky approach that no major Linux distribution has actually used it for the last 20 years or so (except for getty). That should tell us something.

Remember that to control such a service while the system is running, you'd need to either edit /etc/inittab whenever a service needs to be started or stopped, use runlevels (which sort of sucks because you can only have so many runlevels), or write your own implementation of something like init scripts, at which point you might just as well use init scripts instead because the PID-1 process can't track your process directly anymore (and the service needs to go through the daemonisation song-and-dance routine again). There are other trifling problems, e.g., the complete absence of a mechanism that would sort out inter-service dependencies, which add to the general clunkiness of the idea.

As a viable alternative to what systemd does, this doesn't really fly – it doesn't even get near the taxiway.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 14:51 UTC (Sat) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] (3 responses)

Systemd is many orders of magnitude simpler (in code, in management) than the half-baked mess of traditional "solutions" around sysvinit, cron, xinetd et al with their collection of shell scripts requiring a slew of user-level tools like grep (which thus bring their own vulnerabilities into the fold). Yes, systemd in itself is more complex than any one of the basic tools, but you have to consider the whole. That a small group of self-proclaimed Veteran Unix Sysadmins are virulently opposed to systemd doesn't diminish the fact that all large Linux distributions took it up as default in a remarkably short time (they are used in their day-to-day work building the exact same distributions by veteran sysadmins, who certainly have a voice in those kind of decisions) and which are being gratefully accepted by droves of users all around the world.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 17:34 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link] (1 responses)

Right... Onwards to the glorious grep-free future - we can't leave that source of vulnerabilities sitting around, can we?

I'm really sick and tired of constant "they spew loads of bullshit, let's go and balance it" kind of crap. Which rapidly converges to duelling groups of worthless trash cheerfully competing in oral defecation ;-/

Sigh... advocates - can't live with them, can't dispose of the bodies without violating all kinds of hazmat regulations...

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 17:45 UTC (Sat) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

I'm an asiduous grep (and sed, even perl, and some shell script) user myself, and use make on a daily basis. It's just that having those programs (made for interactive convenience in the GNU versions at least, not for minimality/security) run unattended by root does make me a bit nervous.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 3, 2015 18:02 UTC (Sat) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

Linux did not become the world leading O/S by copying Windows design flaws, and Linux admins are not paid to copy Windows mistakes. Systemd can leverage itself into some distros but it can't make serious Linux admins use it.

FreeDesktop started off with some good work but in recent years it has become the world leader in copying Windows mistakes, and by far the most serious impediment to Linux growth.

It's fascinating to see who is badmouthing the people coding around the systemd blockage. Meanwhile the list of serious projects using systemd continues to be somewhere between miniscule and non-existent.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 5, 2015 8:41 UTC (Mon) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (1 responses)

> Whoever said Linux is being invaded by Windows refugees is not far from the mark.

If you mean former users of Windows that (try to) switch to Linux, then why do you say it like it's a bad thing? Should we force them to stay with Windows so that they don't "pollute" our community? Purity of Essence and all that stuff?

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 5, 2015 18:35 UTC (Mon) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Windows has a release pendulum - one side has mediocre versions: 98, 2000, XP, 7 (8.1?); the other side is really bad versions: ME, Vista, 8.

The bad ones tend to drive large amounts of users over to whatever else is in the spotlight at the time. Vista lost a lot of people who'd tolerated ME's instability and XP's design excesses over to OS X, software developers included. (And lo and behold, most of web 2.0 was built on Macs...)

Now that Linux has reached "good enough", it's gaining a lot of users who don't want Windows 8 over its jarring UI/workflow breakage, but were perfectly fine with how everything else was bloated, black-boxed and DRMed before it in 7. A general bad attitude of "no user-serviceable parts inside, we know better than you" rode in on that, which is where we're at now.

The next wave of Windows refugees will almost certainly bring with them a new round of bad ideas, but I'll admit I haven't been paying attention to Microsoft this time around...

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 17:29 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

Nice analogy! Should take another look at "The First Law" and find who is who. By bending knees to systemd, finally civilization will come to the Linux desktop.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 16, 2015 12:29 UTC (Fri) by hitmark (guest, #34609) [Link] (1 responses)

In terms of control, i would say they are correct.

One do not have to look hard to find stories where systemd get something wrong where the older way had gotten it right for years, and the person trying to sort it is left with unhelpful responses that brings to mind Windows.

And having Linux mimic Windows is the last thing many wants, as they adopted Linux specifically to get away from the nondeterminism of Windows.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 16, 2015 13:01 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

>One do not have to look hard to find stories where systemd get something wrong where the older way had gotten it right for years,

With all due respect, you're confusing "gotten it right" with "gotten used to the many warts" (aka "familiarity")

> as they adopted Linux specifically to get away from the nondeterminism of Windows.

Oh, if that's the case, then those "many" will love systemd, as it is *FAR* more deterministic and verifiable than the hodpodge of mashed-together stuff it replaces. It's also far better documented, provides far more visibility into internal state, and far more debuggable (albeit different) than what it replaces.

The most defensible objection to systemd I've seen so far is that it is genuinely new, and as such is more likely to have bugs in its implementation. Fair enough, and one will find the systemd devs very responsive to bug reports. But if someone is going to attack its design, it behooves them to make sure that said attack isn't equally (if not more) applicable to what systemd is trying to replace.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 16, 2015 18:03 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm sure a sufficiently motivated detractor could also come up with a laundry list of technical reasons why systemd is not the right tool for the job

I say to the detractors, bring it on! A list of specific, well-argued, verifiable issues with systemd's design or implementation – especially ones that haven't been debunked a dozen times over, haven't been fixed in the meantime, and aren't being worked on already – will surely be helpful for further development.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 17, 2015 0:45 UTC (Sat) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link] (1 responses)

Please stick with systemd. Really. You'll be much much happier. I'm happy for you.

Meanwhile those of us who value freedom are coding around the systemd roadblock.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Jan 17, 2015 1:17 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

Have a ball. In the meantime, it's possible to value freedom and use systemd at the same time. Systemd is free software, as much as the stuff it replaces.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 16:00 UTC (Wed) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link] (4 responses)

In this particular case, I'm in the "due caution concerning exciting new all-encompassing ways of doing things" camp, as a member of the "the wonderful new system breaks and my phone rings" camp :-)

Also, I still find myself regularly having cause to wish to perform untoward and violent actions upon PulseAudio, so another all-encompassing system from the same team inspires more caution than it might from others.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 17:33 UTC (Wed) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link] (3 responses)

Could you enlighten us about developers developing both PulseAudio and systemd? One particular name comes to mind, but I doubt there is much intersection, if any.
systemd it made by about 30 commiters and 600 contributors. PA seems to have around 50 contributors, I don't know exact commiters number, but the names are different from systemd's.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 17:51 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link] (2 responses)

Lennart Poettering.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 18:42 UTC (Wed) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link] (1 responses)

One person is hardly a ”team”.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 25, 2014 21:47 UTC (Thu) by jonnor (guest, #76768) [Link]

Also Lennart does not do much work in PulseAudio anymore, maintenance and major feature development has been taken over couple of years back.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 3:07 UTC (Wed) by dgp (guest, #100343) [Link] (6 responses)

They are working on making things that are currently locked to systemd via logind etc work without systemd. They are doing exactly what people have said they can/should do when people complained about Gnome requiring systemd indirectly via logind. "it's all opensource and documented so write your own versions that don't need systemd.. revive consolekit".
This is what OpenBSD are also doing.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 3:14 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (3 responses)

Yeah, except that this work could have easily been done under the existing Debian umbrella; none of this outspoken juvenile psuedo-anonymous forking was required.

Still, if they actually manage to deliver something in the end, good for them.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 4:28 UTC (Wed) by dgp (guest, #100343) [Link] (2 responses)

It would be nice if everything could be done within Debian. It would be nice if all of the forks of Debian that already exist like Ubuntu weren't duplicating work in multiple places but as long as they don't break the packaging formats etc in the long run it doesn't matter.

I don't think their motives matter at all. The licenses for the software in Debian allow them to do exactly this. The licenses exist so they can do exactly what they are doing. I'm not aware of any opensource license that requires you dox yourself.

The pro-systemd camp should be happy because they're taken the issues they have with systemd in Debian and are working on them somewhere else instead of restarting the drama within Debian yet again.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 12:56 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> I don't think their motives matter at all. The licenses for the software in Debian allow them to do exactly this.

Their motives don't matter too much from a technical perspective [*], but from more squishy touchy-feely perspectives the whole Deuvan effort comes off as.. well, highly juvenile in motive and not playing well with others; not unlike what they were accusing the Debian and systemd camps of doing.

That attitude will make it a lot harder to convince "reasonable" people to use their stuff should anything tangible ever come of their efforts, especially given that they're targeting the conservative wing of an already conservative userbase. It's hard to win trust, especially with ongoing schoolyard antics.

[*] Then again, from a technical perspective, the fork was completely unnecessary and all technical goals could have been accomplished entirely within Debian -- which also hurts one's credibility for the other matters.

Meanwhile, I'm happy they're building another implementation of logind, but damn, they sure seem to be making a whole lot more (unnecessary) work for themselves in the process.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 26, 2014 17:03 UTC (Fri) by wtanksleyjr (subscriber, #74601) [Link]

By doing it this way, they get to focus on the technical aspects of the problem they're facing without having to convince other people that their goal is technically interesting.

Once they're finished, and there's no technical reason why they shouldn't, they or someone else can submit their finished work back to Debian and have the solid argument that the result works well in a very similar context.

I just don't see why this is causing any concern at all.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 24, 2014 16:32 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

I'm pretty happy that actual work is happening. Though if you check, they implement the logind API. Partly that's great. They'll actually assist in allowing people to drop ConsoleKit support.

What's unfortunate is that they're attracting an insane amount of less constructive people.

Devuan progress report - NIH Edition

Posted Dec 25, 2014 11:30 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

And that requires forking all Debian because...

devuan logo

Posted Dec 24, 2014 0:53 UTC (Wed) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (3 responses)

Am I the only one to whom this looks awkward?
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan-for...

devuan logo

Posted Dec 24, 2014 2:05 UTC (Wed) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

One tasteless logo proposal doesn't in itself discredit the project...

devuan logo

Posted Dec 24, 2014 2:23 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

Seems par for the course. The entire project is a haven for trolls, and the more the merrier; hopefully it'll distract them from disrupting useful projects.

devuan logo

Posted Dec 24, 2014 13:43 UTC (Wed) by snakeroot (guest, #99885) [Link]

Yes, for values of "awkward" equal to "exactly like a stylized penis".

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 2:31 UTC (Wed) by mrons (subscriber, #1751) [Link] (7 responses)

I've posted this before, buried in a giant thread, but look what happens when Hitler discovers that Debian is moving to systemd:

http://youtu.be/VSbNumR9Z8k

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 3:46 UTC (Wed) by geertj (guest, #4116) [Link] (4 responses)

That video is hilarious. Thanks for sharing.

Devuan progress report

Posted Jan 3, 2015 13:18 UTC (Sat) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] (3 responses)

Yeah, the subtitles are nicely set. But the trouble is, if you understand german, it's not that funny.

Devuan progress report

Posted Jan 3, 2015 23:25 UTC (Sat) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

Right, I wonder if there is a name for this phenomenon?

Devuan progress report

Posted Jan 4, 2015 17:27 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

Didn't find a name, but there are posters with names of colors in various colors themselves. The challenge is to say what color each word is written in. My sister was much better at it than I was…then she learned to read and was as bad as I.

Here[1] is a post explaining that.

[1]http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar2001/984336280.Ns...

Devuan progress report

Posted Jan 5, 2015 1:14 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

The name for the one I found is the Stroll Effect[1]. Not sure if there's a name for improper subtitles when the spoken language is understood independently (I'll sometimes watch anime with English audio and subtitles because sometimes the differences are interesting without much issue) or if it is the same effect.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_effect

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 5:00 UTC (Wed) by MTecknology (guest, #57596) [Link]

Thanks for making me feel like Hilter. The only disagreement I had was "an* option."
... the wrong article was used.

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 24, 2014 21:36 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

For those who haven't seen the original movie, it's a brilliant movie called "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler. The actor who plays Hitler is called Bruno Ganz and he is unbelievably good.

Sorry for the digression; back to systemd-stuff...

Devuan progress report

Posted Dec 27, 2014 15:51 UTC (Sat) by xnox (guest, #63320) [Link]

Devuan's base-files package (aka ~= filesystem package) fails to build from source... a long way to go.


Copyright © 2014, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds