Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 16:26 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
In reply to: Fedora 21 released by hadrons123
Parent article: Fedora 21 released

Really? Even if you count Fedora workstation as not entirely new, Fedora cloud variants including a base image for Docker and Fedora Server is listed and are completely new to this release.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 19:45 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (20 responses)

Aha in reality it's all the hype for current and future RHEL products while continuing the good tradition of treating Fedora community made spins as second class citizens. By all means people graduate Red Hat for their progress and the new product releases of the overlord...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:13 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (19 responses)

For a desktop/Laptop user there is nothing new or special in this release. The day I knew Fedora spins are considered a second class citizens and no release blockers exist for them and Fedora prioritize only the red hat enchanted packages, I stopped using fedora all together leave alone contributing to bug reports/forums. There are other Linux projects which could use my little help for the packages I use and don't bulldoze me!

note:
But on the hindsight, I have huge respect for people who work on the SIGs in Fedora, who in-spite of all these red hat tactics continue to work on the alternate desktop for the sake of users.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:31 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (6 responses)

> The day I knew Fedora spins are considered a second class citizens and no release blockers exist for them and Fedora prioritize only the red hat enchanted packages,

This is incorrect. The release blockers are focused on functionality and not related to spins

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_21_Final_Release_Cri...

There is nothing Red Hat specific about them. For instance, both GNOME and KDE is considered release blocking.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:09 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (5 responses)

That depends how often and to what Adam has changed the release critera to during each development cycle and it took quite the effort keeping him from tailoring it directly to Gnome all those years.

The fact is KDE has always gotten to "Tag along" due to it's history hence it being a release blocking desktop and you can wonder why that is.

Now feel free to remind me again why a) KDE was not a part of the "workstation" product and b) it's own product for this release cycle since KDE community was the only community that actually is and always has stepped up and be capable of conducting it's own QA and manage themselves while Gnome got a free ride on QA community resources when we should have been focusing our efforts directly on the installer and the core/baseOS

And what about all the other community made products a.k.a spins, Are you going to claim they got "included" on equal grounds to Gnome all these years?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:32 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link]

Why isn't KDE part of the Workstation product? Because they picked GNOME... and (almost) no one's Live media includes multiple desktops (my own remix does).

Fedora favors GNOME. Yeah, I got that at least 5 years ago. Wasn't hard to get over. Like... OMG... Fedora decided to focus on something... like wow.

But seriously, it hasn't really hurt anyone else's ability to make whatever spin they want... both within and without the community.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:56 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (3 responses)

Spins are never equal in terms with Gnome.
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-Janu...

christian S from Red hat says
"..we should start demanding
that any spin set up needs to provide an annual monetary contribution to help pay for the Fedora infrastructure and team."

This is exactly the type of community that I don't want to be a part of.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:36 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

That's a pretty selective quoting:

"So if you want the spins to the logically the same in terms of resources we should start demanding that any spin set up needs to provide an annual monetary contribution to help pay for the Fedora infrastructure and team."

Which well yeah, that seems unsurprising. Arbitrary spins can't expect Red Hat to spend the money required to provide an equivalent amount of support - there's a large number of people employed to work on GNOME-specific parts of Fedora, and duplicating them to provide equivalent support for KDE, XFCE, Mint and so on would be a lot of money.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 23:44 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh please if you are going to be defending the Red Hat employee that Red Hat stuffed on top of the workstation WG an individual that is to incompetent to read and follow the mailinglist communication guidelines that have been in use all those years and everyone are aware except individuals that have little to no communication and history with project,then atleast provide a reference where anyone from the spins community has demanded any kind of money or resources from Red Hat or anyone from the community for that matter. And while you are at it why dont you share with the audience the solution you proposed in the community working group meeting on how differences between Red Hat employees and community members should be resolved...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 11:52 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I'm defending him based on your claim that he said something that he didn't say. Nor did he claim that spin communities had demanded money or resources from Red Hat - he said that if they wanted to receive the same level of resource commitment from Red Hat, someone would have to pay for it.

> And while you are at it why dont you share with the audience the solution you proposed in the community working group meeting on how differences between Red Hat employees and community members should be resolved...

I suggested that situations involving inappropriate behaviour on the part of employees of Fedora's corporate sponsor should involve their management, rather than limiting sanctions to those that could be imposed within the project. Red Hat employees should be expected to be examples within the Fedora community, and so the consequences of poor behaviour should impact their professional career and not just how they spend their spare time.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:35 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] (11 responses)

If you expected all packages to be the same (package neutrality?)... and everything potentially being a blocker... well, you were living in fantasy land to begin with. If that were the case, then Fedora would move at the glacial speed of Debian.

It should also be noted that even with some observed limitations, the gross affect is still quite positive and beneficial to the entire Linux ecosystem.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:29 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (8 responses)

The insanity is tying everybody to the same release cycle and the same criteria process as opposed to allow each sub community come up with their own release criteria and own release cycle, be it Gnome, be it KDE to allow them to adapt themselves to it's upstream release cycle and needs.

That insanity is the "fantasy" Red Hat wanted everyone in with the DVD and now want with their "products".

And while you bless and praise the shitty corporate oppression of Red Hat let me remind that the community had to fight for the multi live dvd to be able to at least present community products at various events since it's not like those community made products was on the front page of the project on par with Gnome and the DVD all those years.

The fact is community maintained components and products have *always* been put into second class compared to Red Hat's own components and products in Fedora

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 11:45 UTC (Wed) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link] (7 responses)

"The fact is community maintained components and products have *always* been put into second class compared to Red Hat's own components and products in Fedora"

As a KDE user since it was in beta, my reaction to this is: so what?

This is free software, people, and corporations, focus on whatever it is they want to focus.

The same way I get to choose which projects I contribute to and what I want to do about it, including abandoning them, Red Hat, has every right to focus on whatever they want.

You think they are wrong? Well, so what? It is their inalienable right to be wrong.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 18:07 UTC (Wed) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (6 responses)

Red Hat can focus on whatever they want to focus on and that's exactly what they do however when they deliberately misuse contributors time and treating them like second class citizen when doing so under alleged "community sponsored" flag things change.

Heck it even has it's employees annually sign a pledge not doing so [¹] which contains among other things...

"Code of Business Conduct and Ethics"

Page 3

"Participation in an open source project, whether maintained by the Company or by another commercial or non-commercial entity or organization , does not constitute a conflict of interest even where such participant makes a determination in the interest of the project that is adverse to the Company's interests."

Which is nothing but a load of crap since their employees aren't following it ( classic case of great on paper crap on field ) so please don't condone or sugar code that corporate pile of crap that falls from that ivory tower there in phoenix and taste the pile of corporate shit for what it really is.

1. http://investors.redhat.com/corporate-governance.cfm

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 18:22 UTC (Wed) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link] (2 responses)

> Which is nothing but a load of crap since their employees aren't following it ( classic case of great on paper crap on field ) so please don't condone or sugar code that corporate pile of crap that falls from that ivory tower there in phoenix and taste the pile of corporate shit for what it really is.

Please moderate your scatological references.

I know you have a grievance, but you fill every LWN discussion even tangentially related to Red Hat with foaming-at-the-mouth rage-fueled flaming. It's got to the point now where most people who haven't killfiled you consider you to be a crazy person, which is a shame because when you're not posting about Red Hat you seem to have something useful to contribute. Your current approach isn't actually achieving anything other than to make yourself look bad. Could you possibly try and find an alternative way of persuading people to take your concerns seriously?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 23:24 UTC (Wed) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm just returning Red Hat the favour. I was not always like this in fact I was just like many looked up to Red Hat however I became this way after what 8 years or so contributing to Fedora and dealing with it and their employees so in a sense my behaviour is product of their own creation anyways which alternative way might that be?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 18:49 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link]

Look, Red Hat doesn't care if you're returning the favor or whatever. You're only hurting yourself holding onto that anger. Why let "them" define who you are now?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 23:53 UTC (Wed) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link] (1 responses)

How can they possibly not follow that qoute of their code of conduct?

That qoute doesn't really say anything, it is literally impossible not to follow it.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 1:29 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

AFAICS, it explicitly allows certain activities (working on "outside" open source, deciding against Red Hat's wishes/interests in the course of work on open source that Red Hat happens to ship) that would get you fired almost automatically elsewhere. Interesting twist to exhibit this as an example of the Big Bad Red Hat Conspiracy...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 9:13 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

> "Participation in an open source project, whether maintained by the
> Company or by another commercial or non-commercial entity or organization
> , does not constitute a conflict of interest even where such participant
> makes a determination in the interest of the project that is adverse to
> the Company's interests."

I'm fairly sure a lot of people within Red Hat could be fired if it wasn't for this provision. (Not that they _would_ be fired, but they certainly could). Just as a stupid example, see Ubuntu Core advertised on the QEMU advent calendar (http://www.qemu-advent-calendar.org/#day-9).

It was a very nice surprise to read it when they hired me and I had to read and sign the code of conduct.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:07 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (1 responses)

What is wrong with debian's approach?

Even if debian moves in glacial speed at least it works(Testing,stable etc installer images).
Debian installer is rock solid for the last 5 years I have used it.
Anaconda for all the QA attention it gets it is no way even near the debian installer. Alienating users/Developers is what makes people less inspired to work at any project.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:13 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> What is wrong with debian's approach?

Nothing in particular. It is just a different audience with a different set of tradeoffs. If you prefer that, use it.