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Fedora 21 released

[Posted December 9, 2014 by corbet]

From:  Matthew Miller <mattdm-AT-fedoraproject.org>
To:  announce-AT-lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject:  Announcing Fedora 21!
Date:  Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:56:40 -0500
Message-ID:  <20141209145640.GA9850@mattdm.org>

Fedora 21 Release Announcement
==============================

<http://fedoramagazine.org/announcing-fedora-21/>

The Fedora Project is pleased to announce the release of Fedora 21,
ready to run on your desktops, servers, and in the cloud. Fedora 21 is
a game-changer for the Fedora Project, and we think you're going to be
very pleased with the results.


Fedora.next and Fedora 21 Flavors
=================================

As part of the Fedora.next initiative, Fedora 21 comes in three
flavors: Cloud, Server, and Workstation -- whether you're using
Linux on your laptop, using Linux on your servers, or spinning up
containers or images in the cloud, we have what you need to be
successful.

Fedora 21 Base
--------------

Each of the flavors builds on the "base" set of packages for
Fedora. For instance, each flavor uses the same packages for the
kernel, RPM, Yum, systemd, Anaconda, and so forth.

The Base Working Group develops the standard platform for all
Fedora deliverables, which includes the installer, compose tools,
and basic platform for the other flavors. The Base set of packages
*is not* intended for use on its own, but is kept as a small,
stable platform for other initiatives to build on.


Highlights in the Fedora 21 Release
===================================

Fedora 21 Cloud
---------------

The Fedora Cloud Working Group and Special Interest Group (SIG) has
been busy leading up to Fedora 21. Cloud is now a top-level
deliverable for Fedora 21, and includes images for use in private
cloud environments like OpenStack, as well as AMIs for use on
Amazon, and a new "Atomic" image streamlined for running Docker
containers.

* Modular Kernel Packaging for Cloud

  Space is precious, and there's little reason to include drivers
  for hardware that doesn't exist in the cloud. As part of the work
  for this release, the cloud SIG and kernel team split the kernel
  into two packages. One package contains the minimum modules for
  running in a virtualized environment, the other contains the
  larger set of modules for a more general installation. With other
  size reduction work, the F21 cloud image is about 25% smaller
  than F20, making for faster deployment and more room to whatever
  *you* need.

* Fedora Atomic Host

  In early April, Red Hat announced Project Atomic, an effort to
  provide the tools and patterns for a streamlined operating system
  to run containers. The Fedora 21 release is the first to offer an
  "Atomic" host for Fedora, which includes a minimal set of
  packages and an image composed with rpm-ostree.

  While using the same RPMs as other Fedora offerings, the Atomic
  host lets you roll back updates (if necessary) as one atomic unit
  -- making update management much easier.

  Our Atomic image includes Kubernetes and Cockpit for container
  management, and will receive updates through the Fedora 21
  release cycle as rpm-ostree updates.


Fedora 21 Server
----------------

The Fedora Server flavor is a common base platform that is meant to
run featured application stacks, which are produced, tested, and
distributed by the Server Working Group. Want to use Fedora as a
Web server, file server, database server, or platform for an
Infrastructure-as-a-Service? Fedora 21 Server is for you.

* Fedora Server Management Features

  The Fedora Server flavor introduces new Server management
  features aimed at making it easier to install discrete
  infrastructure services. The Fedora Server introduces three new
  technologies to handle this task, rolekit, Cockpit, and OpenLMI.

  Rolekit is a Role deployment and management toolkit that provides
  a consistent interface to administrators to install and configure
  all the packages needed to implement a specific server role.
  Rolekit is at an early stage of development in Fedora 21.

  Cockpit is a user interface for configuring and monitoring your
  server or servers. It is accessible remotely via a web browser.

  OpenLMI is a remote management system built atop DMTF-CIM. Use
  OpenLMI for scripting management functions across many machines
  and for querying for capabilities and monitoring for system
  events.

* Domain Controller Server Role

  As part of the server role offerings available for Fedora 21, the
  Server flavor ships with a role deployment mechanism. One of the
  roles offered in 21 is the Domain Controller Service.

  The Domain Controller Service packages freeIPA's integrated
  identity and authentication solution for Linux/UNIX networked
  environments.

  A FreeIPA server provides centralized authentication,
  authorization, and account information by storing data about
  user, groups, hosts, and other objects necessary to manage the
  security aspects of a network of computers.

Fedora 21 Workstation
---------------------

The Fedora Workstation is a new take on desktop development from
the Fedora community. Our goal is to pick the best components, and
integrate and polish them. This work results in a more polished and
targeted system than you've previously seen from the Fedora
desktop. We want our desktop operating system to solve your
problems, not be your problem.

* Easy access to all your software

  The cornerstone of the Fedora Workstation is the Software
  installer, which lets you find all kinds of applications quickly
  and easily. The improvements to the Software installer in Fedora
  21 provide a responsive and fast user experience. In addition,
  Fedora packagers have worked with developers around the world to
  greatly improve the number of featured applications.

* Improvements to the Terminal application

  We want developers to have a great experience, so a strong
  Terminal application is absolutely important. We've integrated a
  set of additional features in the Terminal, such as:

  - Support for transparent backgrounds
  - Automatic title updates to help you identify different terminals
  - A simple toggle for disabling shortcuts in the Terminal
  - Search for Terminals by name in the GNOME desktop overview

* Experimental Wayland support

  Wayland is a new and exciting display server technology that will
  power Linux desktops of the future. With Fedora Workstation 21
  you can visit the future now, and see how well your applications
  work with Wayland. You can also experiment with making your
  applications take advantage of Wayland's new capabilities. Much
  of the core Wayland development comes from Fedora Workstation
  contributors, so this is your chance to try out Wayland straight
  from the source.

* DevAssistant

  We recognize developers need an easy and straightforward way to
  set up many different programming environments. In Fedora
  Workstation, we offer the DevAssistant developer helper, which
  takes care of this setup for a large number of language runtimes
  and IDEs.

  To provide the most flexible development environment possible,
  DevAssistant integrates with Fedora Software collections, to
  provide multiple versions of different languages to suit your
  needs. Software Collections allow you to install additional
  language support alongside the system software, without any
  conflicts. For example, you could use Software Collections to
  enable a separate version of Perl or Ruby without conflicting
  with the system version.

* Ease of installation

  We want the installation of the Fedora Workstation to be as
  straightforward and simple as possible. In Fedora Workstation we've
  distilled this process down to selecting the layout of your physical
  media, and then pressing "Install." (In fact, you can even let the
  installer choose the disk layout for you.) And because the future of
  installations is not optical disks, we ship with an easy to use tool to
  help you create bootable USB sticks -- just download a new Live image,
  right-click, and write to USB.

* Web service integration

  We recognize you have work to do, and you want to use the tools
  that let you get it done. That's why we're working to make all
  your applications in Fedora Workstation look and feel the same.
  With the ability to run HTML5 web services in a chromeless
  window, we aim to make your apps feel like a natural extension to
  your desktop. More integration upgrades are coming in future
  Fedora Workstation releases.

* Support for high resolution displays (HiDPI)

  Technology never stands still, and as a software developer you
  are used to using the best technology available. So we've spent a
  lot of time and effort on supporting the new generation of HiDPI
  displays found on new hardware like many new ultrabook models, or
  the Apple Retina display. That's probably why Fedora has been
  called the best of HiDPI.

* Exciting roadmap

  This Fedora Workstation release is not the end. It's the
  beginning of a new era for Fedora on the desktop. We have a
  roadmap lined up to bring a range of exciting new technologies to
  the Linux desktop:

  - Containers
  - Smarter virtual machines
  - Better development tools
  - Improved toolkit integration
  - More web integration
  - ...and much more

So if you want to be part of the future of the Linux desktop, get
on board now!


Downloads, upgrades, documentation, and common bugs
===================================================

You can start by downloading Fedora 21:

<https://getfedora.org/>

If you are upgrading from a previous release of Fedora, refer to:

<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading>

* Fedora now includes the FedUp utility to enable an easy upgrade to
  Fedora 21 from previous releases. See the FedUp page on the
  Fedora wiki for more information:

<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedUp>

Documentation
-------------

Read the full release notes for Fedora 21, guides for several languages,
and learn about known bugs and how to report new ones:

<https://docs.fedoraproject.org/>

Fedora 21 common bugs are documented at:

<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F21_bugs>

This page includes information on several known non-blocker bugs in
Fedora 20, please be sure to read it before installing!

Spins
-----

In addition to the new Fedora flavors, Fedora users also have the
alternative of Fedora Spins that highlight user favorites like KDE
Plasma Workspaces, Xfce, LXDE, and Sugar on a Stick (SoaS). If
you're interested in trying out one of the spins, head over to the
page for Fedora Spins and grab the spins you're interested in!

<https://spins.fedoraproject.org/>

Contributing
------------

We hope that you're excited to have Fedora 21 in your hands and are
looking forward to using it and exploring its new features and many
improvements over Fedora 20. But that's not all! Fedora never
stands still, we're always working towards a new and better release
and sharing our work with the world. Want to be part of the fun?
It's easy to get involved!

There are many ways to contribute to Fedora, even if it's just bug
reporting. You can also help translate software and content, test and
give feedback on software updates, write and edit documentation, design
and do artwork, help with all sorts of promotional activities, and
package free software for use by millions of Fedora users worldwide. To
get started, visit <https://join.fedoraproject.org> today!


-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm@fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
-- 
announce mailing list
announce@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/announce

to post comments

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 15:37 UTC (Tue) by Darkmere (subscriber, #53695) [Link] (65 responses)

I can only say Congratulations, and let's hope the new Flavours work out well with users too.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 16:09 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (22 responses)

What is the new flavor here?

Looks all the same to me compared to previous releases.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 16:26 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (21 responses)

Really? Even if you count Fedora workstation as not entirely new, Fedora cloud variants including a base image for Docker and Fedora Server is listed and are completely new to this release.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 19:45 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (20 responses)

Aha in reality it's all the hype for current and future RHEL products while continuing the good tradition of treating Fedora community made spins as second class citizens. By all means people graduate Red Hat for their progress and the new product releases of the overlord...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:13 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (19 responses)

For a desktop/Laptop user there is nothing new or special in this release. The day I knew Fedora spins are considered a second class citizens and no release blockers exist for them and Fedora prioritize only the red hat enchanted packages, I stopped using fedora all together leave alone contributing to bug reports/forums. There are other Linux projects which could use my little help for the packages I use and don't bulldoze me!

note:
But on the hindsight, I have huge respect for people who work on the SIGs in Fedora, who in-spite of all these red hat tactics continue to work on the alternate desktop for the sake of users.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:31 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (6 responses)

> The day I knew Fedora spins are considered a second class citizens and no release blockers exist for them and Fedora prioritize only the red hat enchanted packages,

This is incorrect. The release blockers are focused on functionality and not related to spins

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_21_Final_Release_Cri...

There is nothing Red Hat specific about them. For instance, both GNOME and KDE is considered release blocking.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:09 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (5 responses)

That depends how often and to what Adam has changed the release critera to during each development cycle and it took quite the effort keeping him from tailoring it directly to Gnome all those years.

The fact is KDE has always gotten to "Tag along" due to it's history hence it being a release blocking desktop and you can wonder why that is.

Now feel free to remind me again why a) KDE was not a part of the "workstation" product and b) it's own product for this release cycle since KDE community was the only community that actually is and always has stepped up and be capable of conducting it's own QA and manage themselves while Gnome got a free ride on QA community resources when we should have been focusing our efforts directly on the installer and the core/baseOS

And what about all the other community made products a.k.a spins, Are you going to claim they got "included" on equal grounds to Gnome all these years?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:32 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link]

Why isn't KDE part of the Workstation product? Because they picked GNOME... and (almost) no one's Live media includes multiple desktops (my own remix does).

Fedora favors GNOME. Yeah, I got that at least 5 years ago. Wasn't hard to get over. Like... OMG... Fedora decided to focus on something... like wow.

But seriously, it hasn't really hurt anyone else's ability to make whatever spin they want... both within and without the community.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:56 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (3 responses)

Spins are never equal in terms with Gnome.
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2014-Janu...

christian S from Red hat says
"..we should start demanding
that any spin set up needs to provide an annual monetary contribution to help pay for the Fedora infrastructure and team."

This is exactly the type of community that I don't want to be a part of.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:36 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

That's a pretty selective quoting:

"So if you want the spins to the logically the same in terms of resources we should start demanding that any spin set up needs to provide an annual monetary contribution to help pay for the Fedora infrastructure and team."

Which well yeah, that seems unsurprising. Arbitrary spins can't expect Red Hat to spend the money required to provide an equivalent amount of support - there's a large number of people employed to work on GNOME-specific parts of Fedora, and duplicating them to provide equivalent support for KDE, XFCE, Mint and so on would be a lot of money.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 23:44 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh please if you are going to be defending the Red Hat employee that Red Hat stuffed on top of the workstation WG an individual that is to incompetent to read and follow the mailinglist communication guidelines that have been in use all those years and everyone are aware except individuals that have little to no communication and history with project,then atleast provide a reference where anyone from the spins community has demanded any kind of money or resources from Red Hat or anyone from the community for that matter. And while you are at it why dont you share with the audience the solution you proposed in the community working group meeting on how differences between Red Hat employees and community members should be resolved...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 11:52 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I'm defending him based on your claim that he said something that he didn't say. Nor did he claim that spin communities had demanded money or resources from Red Hat - he said that if they wanted to receive the same level of resource commitment from Red Hat, someone would have to pay for it.

> And while you are at it why dont you share with the audience the solution you proposed in the community working group meeting on how differences between Red Hat employees and community members should be resolved...

I suggested that situations involving inappropriate behaviour on the part of employees of Fedora's corporate sponsor should involve their management, rather than limiting sanctions to those that could be imposed within the project. Red Hat employees should be expected to be examples within the Fedora community, and so the consequences of poor behaviour should impact their professional career and not just how they spend their spare time.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:35 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] (11 responses)

If you expected all packages to be the same (package neutrality?)... and everything potentially being a blocker... well, you were living in fantasy land to begin with. If that were the case, then Fedora would move at the glacial speed of Debian.

It should also be noted that even with some observed limitations, the gross affect is still quite positive and beneficial to the entire Linux ecosystem.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:29 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (8 responses)

The insanity is tying everybody to the same release cycle and the same criteria process as opposed to allow each sub community come up with their own release criteria and own release cycle, be it Gnome, be it KDE to allow them to adapt themselves to it's upstream release cycle and needs.

That insanity is the "fantasy" Red Hat wanted everyone in with the DVD and now want with their "products".

And while you bless and praise the shitty corporate oppression of Red Hat let me remind that the community had to fight for the multi live dvd to be able to at least present community products at various events since it's not like those community made products was on the front page of the project on par with Gnome and the DVD all those years.

The fact is community maintained components and products have *always* been put into second class compared to Red Hat's own components and products in Fedora

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 11:45 UTC (Wed) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link] (7 responses)

"The fact is community maintained components and products have *always* been put into second class compared to Red Hat's own components and products in Fedora"

As a KDE user since it was in beta, my reaction to this is: so what?

This is free software, people, and corporations, focus on whatever it is they want to focus.

The same way I get to choose which projects I contribute to and what I want to do about it, including abandoning them, Red Hat, has every right to focus on whatever they want.

You think they are wrong? Well, so what? It is their inalienable right to be wrong.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 18:07 UTC (Wed) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (6 responses)

Red Hat can focus on whatever they want to focus on and that's exactly what they do however when they deliberately misuse contributors time and treating them like second class citizen when doing so under alleged "community sponsored" flag things change.

Heck it even has it's employees annually sign a pledge not doing so [¹] which contains among other things...

"Code of Business Conduct and Ethics"

Page 3

"Participation in an open source project, whether maintained by the Company or by another commercial or non-commercial entity or organization , does not constitute a conflict of interest even where such participant makes a determination in the interest of the project that is adverse to the Company's interests."

Which is nothing but a load of crap since their employees aren't following it ( classic case of great on paper crap on field ) so please don't condone or sugar code that corporate pile of crap that falls from that ivory tower there in phoenix and taste the pile of corporate shit for what it really is.

1. http://investors.redhat.com/corporate-governance.cfm

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 18:22 UTC (Wed) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link] (2 responses)

> Which is nothing but a load of crap since their employees aren't following it ( classic case of great on paper crap on field ) so please don't condone or sugar code that corporate pile of crap that falls from that ivory tower there in phoenix and taste the pile of corporate shit for what it really is.

Please moderate your scatological references.

I know you have a grievance, but you fill every LWN discussion even tangentially related to Red Hat with foaming-at-the-mouth rage-fueled flaming. It's got to the point now where most people who haven't killfiled you consider you to be a crazy person, which is a shame because when you're not posting about Red Hat you seem to have something useful to contribute. Your current approach isn't actually achieving anything other than to make yourself look bad. Could you possibly try and find an alternative way of persuading people to take your concerns seriously?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 23:24 UTC (Wed) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm just returning Red Hat the favour. I was not always like this in fact I was just like many looked up to Red Hat however I became this way after what 8 years or so contributing to Fedora and dealing with it and their employees so in a sense my behaviour is product of their own creation anyways which alternative way might that be?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 18:49 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link]

Look, Red Hat doesn't care if you're returning the favor or whatever. You're only hurting yourself holding onto that anger. Why let "them" define who you are now?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 23:53 UTC (Wed) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link] (1 responses)

How can they possibly not follow that qoute of their code of conduct?

That qoute doesn't really say anything, it is literally impossible not to follow it.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 1:29 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

AFAICS, it explicitly allows certain activities (working on "outside" open source, deciding against Red Hat's wishes/interests in the course of work on open source that Red Hat happens to ship) that would get you fired almost automatically elsewhere. Interesting twist to exhibit this as an example of the Big Bad Red Hat Conspiracy...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 9:13 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

> "Participation in an open source project, whether maintained by the
> Company or by another commercial or non-commercial entity or organization
> , does not constitute a conflict of interest even where such participant
> makes a determination in the interest of the project that is adverse to
> the Company's interests."

I'm fairly sure a lot of people within Red Hat could be fired if it wasn't for this provision. (Not that they _would_ be fired, but they certainly could). Just as a stupid example, see Ubuntu Core advertised on the QEMU advent calendar (http://www.qemu-advent-calendar.org/#day-9).

It was a very nice surprise to read it when they hired me and I had to read and sign the code of conduct.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:07 UTC (Tue) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (1 responses)

What is wrong with debian's approach?

Even if debian moves in glacial speed at least it works(Testing,stable etc installer images).
Debian installer is rock solid for the last 5 years I have used it.
Anaconda for all the QA attention it gets it is no way even near the debian installer. Alienating users/Developers is what makes people less inspired to work at any project.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:13 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> What is wrong with debian's approach?

Nothing in particular. It is just a different audience with a different set of tradeoffs. If you prefer that, use it.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 18:02 UTC (Tue) by Buzzy (guest, #32769) [Link]

Thanks to the team and I hope they keep up the good work!

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 22:02 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (40 responses)

> let's hope the new Flavours work out well with users too.

One such here (since Red Hat Linux 5.0). For my intersection of functionality, this is one of the more annoying releases of Fedora in a while.

Xorg Intel driver got busted for my hardware (ThinkPad T510) and logging off the second user now turns screen black for everyone (reboot required). Squid got broken in tproxy mode. Sssd (or something related to it) gets all nuts on suspend/resume and authentication stops (restart of sssd required). NFS got broken by typos in fixed port mode. GTK has gone retro and many dialog boxes look like Windows 3.1 now. Gnome Terminal seems to have adopted the undiscoverable Mac Ctrl+click stupidity for opening new tabs (along the lines of Alt to suspend nonsense). Notification system in Gnome 3.14 is worse than in 3.10 (if that's even possible) - sometimes clicking on notifications works, sometimes it doesn't. When starting apps in Gnome Shell by dragging them from the dash (or whatever that's called), it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Crazy amounts of space in window title bars are still there, wasting my precious 900 vertical pixels. And so on and so forth.

I don't envy Windows users often. I did on the day I upgraded to F-21. :-(

Anyhow, bugs have been filed (except for Gnome design choices - given up on that a long time ago). So, if you run any of the above, you may want to cherish your F-20 for a while longer...

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:08 UTC (Wed) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link] (5 responses)

I've been using two F21 systems as sssd clients throughout the release cycle without running into an issue like that, what's the bug report?

I don't think much changed about terminals or notifications between 3.10 and 3.14, actually, but I could be misremembering. shift-ctrl-t opens a new tab, in gnome-terminal, and has done since 2.x days, so that's what I always use.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:23 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (2 responses)

sssd bug: #1171923

How does one do Ctrl+Shift+T with a mouse? :-)

PS. I love the removal of Move to Workspace X in the window context menu as well. It is so much easier to do one at a time. And, like a sequential gearbox in the race car, faster. :-)

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:30 UTC (Wed) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link] (1 responses)

"How does one do Ctrl+Shift+T with a mouse? :-)"

I don't know, but I'd figure if you're in a terminal, you presumably are willing to use a keyboard, because I don't know how you'd reasonably do anything *else* in a terminal with a mouse.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:53 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

There are many things you can do with a terminal with just a mouse. You can move it around after you start it. You can open its menu. You can open the context menu and move it to another workspace. You can click on another tab and select/copy/paste etc.

Sometimes, I just want to sit back and use the mouse. Sometimes, I want to type. Sometimes, I want to do both. Gnome 3 makes these choices for me. I thought I was supposed to make those choices. But, hey - we wouldn't want to ruin the "philosophy", now would we? ;-)

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 14:47 UTC (Wed) by dave_malcolm (subscriber, #15013) [Link] (1 responses)

I believe the gnome-terminal open-in-new-tab thing is:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543996

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 15:11 UTC (Wed) by dave_malcolm (subscriber, #15013) [Link]

...and it looks like this behavior was introduced in upstream gnome-terminal 3.11.0 onwards (see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543996#c13 )

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 23:54 UTC (Wed) by mchapman (subscriber, #66589) [Link] (33 responses)

> Gnome Terminal seems to have adopted the undiscoverable Mac Ctrl+click stupidity for opening new tabs

You can choose what "Open Terminal" does in the GNOME Terminal preferences. Check the application menu at the top of the screen.

(Yes, this annoyed me as well until I found the preference. That application menu is really not very discoverable...)

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 18:53 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

What if you use both multiple windows and multiple tabs, seems quite legitimate. Bizarre to make that functionality difficult to access, for want of a piddling little menu entry!

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 19:01 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link] (31 responses)

WTF? So I can't have both windows and tabs any more? What if I want to logically separate groups of tabs into windows? Gnome developers' hostility to any use case they don't personally use still astonishes me. Too bad the other options are even worse.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 11, 2014 19:26 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (30 responses)

You can still have windows and tabs, but they do seem to have made it harder for no gain that I can discern. Make "open terminal" create a tab, then use another mechanism to start new terminal instances. Annoying, but it does work.

After all these years, I still haven't figured out the mindset that leads to conclusions like "if we make each release less featureful and flexible than the one before, we'll get millions of new users".

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 11, 2014 21:52 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link] (2 responses)

"No feature, no problem"? This particular removal seems to have been triggered by a bug report about the strings displayed in the menu. Doesn't encourage filing bugs on Gnome features...

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 11, 2014 22:03 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

This may be a reflection of the amount of manpower available not being large enough to support a larger codebase so the way forward involves a lot of amputation.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 11, 2014 22:13 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link]

This is sadly a self-reinforcing trend.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 11, 2014 22:05 UTC (Thu) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link]

And those millions of new users will be totally new to computers so we can't confuse them with options. And if these new, computer-illiterate users *do* want options, they can code up their own extensions in Javascript.

And I *like* a lot of Gnome 3, certainly more than KDE's bling-insanity, Unity's desperate-to-make-a-buck-before-the-well-runs-dry-ness, or various windows95-was-the-perfect-GUI forks. OK, I'll stop trolling now.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 0:18 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (1 responses)

> Make "open terminal" create a tab, then use another mechanism to start new terminal instances. Annoying, but it does work.

Yeah, looks like "how annoying we can get" is the new measure of Gnome success.

Here is a great counter example of how it should be done. Firefox. If I right click on a link, I get the options to open in a new tab, a new window or even a new private window. Logical, straightforward and simple. Nothing confusing about it.

Gnome terminal had that. Then they had to remove it and do the stupid and hidden "press Ctrl to change behaviour" thing, which doesn't even display a different menu item when Ctrl is pressed (at least the stupid Alt to suspend does).

The mind boggles... :-(

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 10:04 UTC (Fri) by darrylb123 (subscriber, #85709) [Link]

Yeah, I know what you are saying, but they made it a lot easier to start a new window from the dock. Indeed you can make that default.

So, click on the dock for a new window and click on open terminal for a new Tab. Not that illogical.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 5:10 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Maybe I've missed what the expected behavior is, is it just to have an explicit "Open Window" and "Open Tab" option in the right-click and upper-left menu? Otherwise the behavior seems consistent to me, if it is configured to open new instances in tabs then right click or menu "Open Terminal" or "New Terminal" opens new tabs, if its configured to open windows by default then it opens windows, the keyboard shortcuts (which is what I actually use) CTRL-Shift-T (for tab) and CTRL-Shift-N (for window) work in either case.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 14:22 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link] (22 responses)

After all these years, I still haven't figured out the mindset that leads to conclusions like "if we make each release less featureful and flexible than the one before, we'll get millions of new users".

probably because it's not an actual mindset, but just a projection from somebody whose pet feature has been removed and wants to blame somebody?

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 14:47 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (14 responses)

Come on. We're not talking about a "pet feature" here; we're talking about a pattern of behavior that has extended over many years. Let's see, what pet features do I miss?

  • Open either a tab or a window from gnome-terminal
  • Assign operations to mouse button events (seems to have gone away relatively recently)
  • Simply click on an icon to get a new instance of an application (without installing extensions that don't work after the next update)
  • Not have a window raise just because I clicked on it. (Yes, there's an option for that, but it warns you that your system will catch fire if you enable it).
  • Send a window to an arbitrary workspace (seemingly removed in 3.14 - why?)
  • Be able to arbitrarily remap keys without having GNOME reset them at arbitrary times.

That's just from a couple minutes of thinking; others will have their own lists. GNOME developers certainly feel they have good reasons for the decisions they make, but it seems strange to deny that "removal of features is a good thing" is one of them. Havoc Pennington once described the wish to disable autoraise as "crack"; I've seen no evidence that the project has changed its view on such things even though he is no longer driving it.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 19:23 UTC (Fri) by pebolle (guest, #35204) [Link] (4 responses)

> Come on.

Well, didn't the wording of your comment make it likely that it would trigger a blunt reply?

> Not have a window raise just because I clicked on it.

I need education here, it seems. What does this mean? Does it mean you prefer "focus follows mouse"?

> Havoc Pennington once described the wish to disable autoraise as "crack";
> I've seen no evidence that the project has changed its view on such
> things even though he is no longer driving it.

I never met Havoc Pennington, but I did track his blog when Havoc was still working on Gnome, and enjoyed reading it. Where did Havoc say that?

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 20:03 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

>> Not have a window raise just because I clicked on it.

> I need education here, it seems. What does this mean? Does it mean you prefer "focus follows mouse"?

click on a window to focus it, but don't raise it unless you click on the border/title.

This allows you to have documentation in the forfront, click on a window to type a command in without it raising to block the documentation, but without the possibility of your focus shifting because the mouse got bumped the way 'focus follows mouse' does.

It's how I've got KDE configured

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 20:14 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

I've never used this mode (I use FFM with a tiling WM so "raising to block" is sort of an anathema here), but how does Alt+Tab work with it? When does it raise a window?

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 21:15 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

alt tab doesn't raise the window, just moves the focus. there is another key to raise/lower the window, but I never use it so I don't remember it

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 20:35 UTC (Fri) by pebolle (guest, #35204) [Link]

>> I need education here, it seems. What does this mean? Does it mean you
>> prefer "focus follows mouse"?

> click on a window to focus it, but don't raise it unless you click on the
> border/title.

Thanks. I'll interpret that as somewhere between "click to focus and raise" and "focus follows mouse". Say: "click to just focus".

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 3:28 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link] (8 responses)

Come on.

yes, come on.

We're not talking about a "pet feature" here; we're talking about a pattern of behavior that has extended over many years.

and how does this "trend" balances out against the tons of features we added over the years? do you think we have a score board for every development cycle, and for every feature we add, we remove one — using a dartboard, or looking at everyone's pet feature?

come on.

if you want me to go through each pet feature you listed:

  • still there, I can open tabs and new windows with a key shortcut — because it's a terminal, and I'm not going to move my hands from my keyboard while I'm on it.
  • operations of what? the window manager? ah, the infamous "Linus patch". yeah, it's probably been dropped, but if it's a serious regression I expect it to have a bug number
  • you mean Ctrl + click? because it's still there. see, no extension.
  • yes, it warns you because it's something that's so peculiar to old timey Unix users and alien to the rest of the computer-using population that a warning is probably a good idea.
  • the component that handled the menu has been rewritten, which introduced some regressions (like no keyboard accelerators), but also opened the chance of looking at what is sensible to have exposed and what is there just for legacy. feedback there is welcome. the Shell maintainers are actively looking at bugs there.
  • if you're referring to xmodmap, that has nothing to do with GNOME. GNOME uses XKB pretty much exclusively because that's what is going to be available on Wayland as well, and because it's not 1997 any more, and X11 has a better interface for keyboard layouts. this means that the random file you can find on random websites written in 1997 is not going to work. things change. if setting stuff via XKB breaks, then it's a bug and a regression in our input stack, and needs to be addressed.

and yes, I actually agree with Havoc: disable autoraise is "crack". some are addicted to it, and think they can't function without it, but it's still bad for your health, and generally it's bad to introduce new users to it. I'm not a Shell maintainer, though, so you don't have to care about my opinion; Havoc is not the maintainer of the window management component either, so you don't have to care about him as well. you just need to convince other people that your pet feature is actually worth keeping.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 19:48 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Interesting. Do you think the Gnome project will ever care about its users again? Especially the "old timey" power users?

Feature stability isn't to make your life better, it's to make everybody else's life better. That's the difference between a pet project and a mature one.

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 19, 2014 23:11 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (6 responses)

> do you think we have a score board for every development cycle, and for every feature we add, we remove one — using a dartboard, or looking at everyone's pet feature?

I've got a better rhetorical question!

Have you ever responded to a user complaining about your pet project in public, without also being viciously condescending and insinuating they're a moron for daring to use your software?

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 27, 2014 0:16 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (5 responses)

I like this thread! It proves that when I was condescended to and treated as if I was an idiot for daring to want to use features that dated back to 1987 and had been present in basically every window manager since in GNOME too, right up to telling me that nobody used these ubiquitous features and sometimes that they had never existed, this was not because I was in fact an idiot. They treat everyone that way, no matter how renowned. They go to great lengths to belittle their users and convert them into non-users, using measures right up to outright denial of blatantly obvious truths about reality.

It's like the precise opposite of marketing.

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 27, 2014 11:28 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (4 responses)

"Our “market share” would be so much higher, if it wasn't for our existing users and their pesky desire for existing features holding us back".

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 27, 2014 20:35 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (3 responses)

That may be in jest but there is a real grain of truth to this, there may be sufficient difference between ancient UNIX desktops and modern GUIs that to have sensible software you have to choose one style or the other and there are far more people familiar with modern UI conventions that ancient UNIX desktop conventions so there is a fundamental tension between supporting old UNIX hands and new people who don't have a UNIX background.

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 27, 2014 23:06 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't know if there's truth to it or not. That said, that Microsoft had to roll back somewhat from radical UI changes made in Win8 and re-introduce some long-standing UI metaphors suggests that perhaps there isn't too much truth in it. It may well be that the truth is that the desktop has matured, that people have gotten used to certain desktop conventions, and hence that there is little to be gained from radical experiments and much to be risked.

E.g., at the risk of degenerating into argumentum ad vehiculum, in the early days of cars, there were a variety of standards for the controls. Steering was not always via a wheel, some early cars had tillers; the throttle and main brakes were not always controlled by a foot pedal, but often hand-operated (e.g. a lever on the steering wheel for the throttle, a set of levers on the /outside/ of the car for the brakes; etc). It took time before cars settled on the UI conventions that dominate today -steering wheel, gear or drive selector in the middle, foot pedals for (clutch,)? brake and throttle actuation. Even light and indicator controls are somewhat standardised these days, perhaps thanks to consolidation in the industry. There is little value for manufacturers to experiment radically with this UI - it is mature.

I get the feeling though the GNOME devs believed in some truth shared with that comment. That they believed there is still value in big experiments with the desktop, or else that the desktop is dead and that GNOME must change to another UI (but, AFAIK, GNOME doesn't work well on anything but the traditional keyboard + mouse + decent screen desktop).

I'm not sure I agree with those things. I still appreciate the work the GNOME people do, but I've had to change the primary bit of my UI to Cinnamon in order to dampen how much radical experimentation I'm subjected to.

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 28, 2014 4:45 UTC (Sun) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

To abuse your car analogy further the traditional UNIX desktop like twm or fvwm is like the old car with the external brakes and tiller steering, which some people are fanatical about, while the GNOME3 desktop is trying to be a next generation self-driver and there is a lot of conflict between the autopilot and tiller people.

GNOME, please stop.

Posted Dec 28, 2014 10:35 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

For me it's more about GNOME2 v GNOME3. I think most people were happy with GNOME2, least I was. The GNOME3 UI isn't more advanced, for me, it's just arbitrarily different.

GNOME3 isn't a next-gen self-driving car, for me, it's a normal car with the same controls, just in new, weird places. Some controls were hidden and are hard to discover - even commonly used ones like "open the menu" or "choose between shutting down and suspending". It took years for the GNOME devs to rollback on that latter one, despite the complaints.

Arbitrarily, unnecessarily different just isn't what I'm looking for these days in my desktop.

(And no, that some complained about the GNOME1 -> GNOME2 changes is not the same. The GNOME2 changes arose from empirical, objective HCI testing from which a GNOME2 HIG was formulated. There was clear evidence to say the GNOME2 changes were better for the majority of people. There was no such evidence based process to back the GNOME3 changes - it was a sort of experiment carried out on the user-base.)

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 15:21 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (4 responses)

>probably because it's not an actual mindset, but just a projection from somebody whose pet feature has been removed and wants to blame somebody?

That seems very dismissive. While there are a lot of design choices I agree with, there is certainly a number of changes that is poorly explained. GNOME as a project would do well to collect the common complaints and address them either.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 3:13 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link] (3 responses)

That seems very dismissive.

the aside I was replying to was fairly patronizing and dismissive of my work as well. just replying in kind.

you expected me to be the better man? I expected the LWN editor not to stoop to the level of trolls either.

GNOME as a project would do well to collect the common complaints and address them either.

what makes you think this hasn't been done? what could possibly possess you to state that? is it because we didn't just said "okay, we'll re-release GNOME 2 forever, sorry about the detour"? would that satisfy you? or perhaps you want a FAQ, or a list of "myths" about GNOME? if the systemd list of myths clearly demonstrated, that is going to shut up everyone, right?

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 3:44 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Corbet was not trolling. You might ratchet it down a bit.

> what makes you think this hasn't been done? what could possibly possess you to state that?

The large number of dissatisfied Gnome users?

> is it because we didn't just said "okay, we'll re-release GNOME 2 forever, sorry about the detour"? would that satisfy you?

Obviously nobody's asking for this. (what could possibly possess you to state that?)

> or perhaps you want a FAQ, or a list of "myths" about GNOME?

You can write that but it won't change the difficulties people are still having. Corbet's observations are hardly myths.

When you break the world and cost your users big retraining expenses, at least be slightly apologetic about it?

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 4:07 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

[Skipping mostly past the rhetorical questions..]

" if the systemd list of myths clearly demonstrated, that is going to shut up everyone, right?"

It is not about shutting them up. It is a question of addressing them reasonably in one place so people might use it as a reference when frequent questions come up.

For instance, if you look at notifications as a commonly brought up as a topic. Some of them as part of the design. Others are treated as bugs or things to enhance in some way in the upcoming releases. Having a single place to refer to this work would be useful.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 19, 2014 17:38 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

I'm not sure that you could be more shrill if you tried, maybe taking a break and a deep breath would be a good idea.

> is it because we didn't just said "okay, we'll re-release GNOME 2 forever, sorry about the detour"? would that satisfy you?

I think the very existence of MATE and Cinnamon shows that there are a core contingent of users who wanted the GNOME 2 experience and could have been your best Evangelists and additional manpower if they had felt some sort of shared ownership of the GNOME vision and hadn't been driven away. You can't deny the existence of MATE and Cinnamon, or what that means for GNOME as an ecosystem, now bifurcated and splintered unnecessarily.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 12, 2014 16:41 UTC (Fri) by sjj (guest, #2020) [Link]

You're really not doing the Gnome project any favours by coming out of the gate with dismissive and patronizing language ("projection", "pet feature", "blame") at our editor, someone whose bona fides in the Linux community can't be questioned.

gnome-terminal

Posted Dec 15, 2014 21:26 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

This comment perfectly embodies the attitude of Gnome 3, and why I can't rely on it anymore.

Good work! Keep removing pet features and one day your new bug reports will reach zero.

Fedora Infrastructure Status: Major service disruption - High traffic due to F21 release

Posted Dec 9, 2014 20:43 UTC (Tue) by xose (subscriber, #535) [Link] (2 responses)

http://status.fedoraproject.org/

Fedora 21 Public Active Mirrors

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:55 UTC (Tue) by xose (subscriber, #535) [Link]

http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/Fedora/21/

Fedora Infrastructure Status: Major service disruption - High traffic due to F21 release

Posted Dec 9, 2014 23:06 UTC (Tue) by nirik (subscriber, #71) [Link]

Note that this was not due to services being down, but rather as a note to people who were coming and telling us things like fpaste or the wiki were slow. ;)

I've updated the status. There is actually one application that is down currently (or bouncing in and out) and we are investigating whats going on with it (bodhi - the updates application for maintainers/testers to submit updates).

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 9, 2014 21:43 UTC (Tue) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (5 responses)

Is there some more information on flavors and spins? What's the difference between them?

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 20:36 UTC (Wed) by bucky (guest, #53055) [Link] (4 responses)

Near as I can figure, a flavor is simply a "blessed" spin.

I understand that once installed, all flavors install packages from the same Fedora pool.

My perception is that it's a marketing effort aimed at refuting statements like "Fedora is an X distribution" where X is a category corresponding to a flavor name.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 1:10 UTC (Thu) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link] (3 responses)

There are no 'flavors', I'm not quite sure where people are getting that term from. We have Products and spins.

Spins are specifically variant live images, that's all they can be. Products are a rather wider concept - the Server 'Product' has DVD and network install image deliverables, the Cloud 'Product' comes as disk images, the Workstation 'Product' comes as a live image, but they're all products.

One way of looking at the Products is that instances of Fedora with certain specific characteristics are considered to be Products. If you have an instance of Fedora which doesn't match the characteristics of one of the Products, it's just good old Fedora. All the spins are 'non-Product' instances.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 7:50 UTC (Thu) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

ahem. I have been informed by the Powers That Be that my terminology is terribly outdated and it's all "flavors" now. So, om nom nom? Tasty flavors. I'll just be under my rock over here.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 20:22 UTC (Thu) by bucky (guest, #53055) [Link] (1 responses)

Our struggle here is to set aside semantics, marketing and physical differences in installation media, and focus on the fundamental difference between an installed Product/Flavor and an installed spin.

From a system administrator's standpoint, how is, say, a KDE "spin" different from a Workstation "flavor", presuming that once I have finished customizing my installation in either case, I have chosen an identical package set?

I ask to be educated. If the answer is marketing, I will say "Yay! I get it! It's marketing!"

If the answer is that you will never end up with the same package set, I will say "Yay! I get it! Products and spins are distinguished by dissimilar available packages!"

Right now, I'm saying "Waahh! I don't get it! They seem the same to me!"

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 11, 2014 21:57 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> From a system administrator's standpoint, how is, say, a KDE "spin" different from a Workstation "flavor", presuming that once I have finished customizing my installation in either case, I have chosen an identical package set?

Other than possibly the set of default services and such (I think they have different systemd presets, but I don't know for sure), I don't think there is a difference. I usually install using netinstallers with the minimal set and go from there. So far I haven't had much interest or felt much impact from Fedora.Next. So I'd say it's mostly marketing (from my point of view at least).

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 9, 2014 23:44 UTC (Tue) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link] (6 responses)

The first thing I noticed: the DVD installer (a single DVD without any "live" environment but able to install any environment you wanted - Gnome, KDE, LXDE, etc) does not exist for Fedora 21.

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 9, 2014 23:54 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (5 responses)

https://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/relea... is a net installation image that can install any desktop environment despite the name "server" in the image FYI.

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:07 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] (2 responses)

Hilarious. This is the kind of thing that is bound to cause confusion: "If you want to install a desktop, grab a server DVD." :-)

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:10 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Agreed that needs to be fixed and will be for the next release. Meanwhile most users use the live image if they want a desktop environment. So probably the amount of confusion is minimal.

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:14 UTC (Wed) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]

Yeah, that wasn't planned. The plan to make the Workstation netinst actually install something different (like, say, Workstation) didn't have all the details worked out, and rather than delay the release, we decided that this is an okay workaround and that people who can handle doing a netinstall can probably deal with the initial confusion.

It's on the list of things to do better for F22.

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 10, 2014 0:12 UTC (Wed) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

A net installation image needs a stable network connection at install time. I prefer an "offline" installation image, which only needs a working NTP server (and on a pinch, not even that).

Fedora 21 released - DVD installer gone

Posted Dec 12, 2014 10:08 UTC (Fri) by darrylb123 (subscriber, #85709) [Link]

Or grab the LiveOS LXDE/Mate/... image. Boot that and install from there. Pretty much like the Workstation ISO without the bling.

Just add bling later.

Fedora 21 released

Posted Dec 10, 2014 19:24 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

This means Fedora 19 EOL is near and I will have to finally fedup to 20 and then fedup to 21 (even though I am not fed up with it really). My Fedora 19 (with Cinnamon) is the best desktop I have ever had, everything just works great. I think 21 would be just a treat, thanks for the great work. It is always exciting to try new fedoras.


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