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The "Devuan" Debian fork

The "Devuan" Debian fork

Posted Nov 29, 2014 17:23 UTC (Sat) by rleigh (guest, #14622)
In reply to: The "Devuan" Debian fork by Lionel_Debroux
Parent article: The "Devuan" Debian fork

You're mischaracterising people with a very broad brush here. Merely being of the opinion that systemd is badly designed and implemented does not automatically mean one is a backward luddite who won't "live with the times". This unnecessary personalisation of the discussion is one of the factors which have reduced the debate to a low level and made this sorry mess in the first place. It's one of the reasons I unsubscribed from the main lists a year back and greatly reduced my involvement (RSI was the other); I'm a volunteer who chooses to dedicate a significant portion of my life to making Debian, and being subject to continued abuse over a multi-year period is just not acceptable. I've got other free software projects I can work on instead which also provide me pleasure and accomplishment without involving disrespectful and rude behaviour and the resulting high levels of stress and upset. Looking occasionally at the list archives, the tone of the discussion has only become worse.

As one of the sysvinit/initscripts maintainers, I'd say that we were well aware that while they had served us well for decades they did have certain shortcomings and that a replacement which solved these would have been well received. We were in no way opposed to a quality replacement so long as it was backward-compatible to allow upgrades without loss of function or configuration. Three years ago, I was hopeful that systemd had the potential to be that replacement, and spent some time investigating it. For reasons which have been tirelessly debated and which I will not reiterate here, I did not ultimately feel that systemd was suitable as a replacement, and in the three years since then the course of systemd development has not changed my opinion on the matter; if anything it has further reinforced it.

The need for this fork could have been avoided entirely if certain developers were willing to accommodate continued use of the old init. But willing cooperation is not part of some developers' agendas, and that is a great shame since it is that which allowed us to build such a high quality and comprehensive integrated software distribution in the first place.
[To put this into perspective, I spent many man days of effort in the wheezy release making sysvinit align better with systemd to aid migrations and interoperability both ways; that's what you do when the goal is a well integrated distribution. I spent several solid days just making sure that hwclock timezone settings worked in every possible scenario. I think it's fair to say in retrospect that this was ultimately a fairly one-sided effort.]

While I still use Debian daily at both work and home, most of my systems have been running FreeBSD since February. I've needed to evaluate what the post-jessie migration paths might need to be. My plan is to switch over to Devuan once the dak instance and archive is set up, and participate in development at some level, though I don't know what the extent of that will be at this point. If it is small and focussed upon correcting this single major problem with Debian, I think it has a good chance of success, and we can hope that maybe the differences between the two distributions can be resolved at some point in the future. I'll continue to maintain stuff in Debian alongside this work.

Regards,
Roger


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The "Devuan" Debian fork

Posted Nov 29, 2014 18:18 UTC (Sat) by Lionel_Debroux (subscriber, #30014) [Link]

My three previous posts in this topic don't mention systemd's implementation and design :)
I only mentioned functionality (I meant, use cases that are better fulfilled by a systemd foundation than by a sysvinit foundation, in my own experience and that of many other people), and unification (*).
As we all know, systemd and sysvinit scripts are not even exclusive. AFAICT from watching the many sysvinit scripts involved in my Debian jessie/sid systems' boot process, including the $DAYJOB software whose init script I made in 2012, systemd's backwards compatibility with sysvinit scripts just does the job, in the meantime.

systemd clearly isn't perfect (some of its embarrassing holes have made it to oss-sec), the attitude of its maintainers doesn't shine, etc. However, in the big picture, the alternatives (mainly, according to the Debian init system discussion, sticking to sysvinit or switching to upstart) are worse in the short, mid and long term...

With both sides' abuse (there are casualties in the systemd packaging camp, too) and unwillingness to work with each other, the only way to resolve the differences between the two distributions, without burdening Debian and marginalizing it from the bulk of other Linux distros, shall probably be the fork disappearing. "Disappearing" means that it manages to appear in the first place, but in the short term, there are probably enough systemd haters out there for that to happen.

I'm not aware of die-hard sysvinit fans at my work place, thankfully. Most people are on Windows to begin with, and among Linux people, most are on RHEL / CentOS. Most of the few Debian-ers among us are already convinced that systemd is the path forward, due to its functionality and reach among distros. Good luck having uselessd, or suchlike works (I'm not saying that they're completely uninteresting), widely adopted.

*: that much-delayed and much-needed unification of Linux distros, to reduce duplication of effort and portability hurdles across distros in lower-level plumbery, and make Linux an even stronger competitor to Windows and MacOS X, across all platforms. Many other portability hurdles across distros will remain, but reducing one of them is a step in the right direction.


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