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Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 8, 2014 8:36 UTC (Sat) by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
In reply to: Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World) by josh
Parent article: Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Only if you define stable as "set in stone no common sense allowed"


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Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 8, 2014 16:47 UTC (Sat) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (14 responses)

Wouldn't it be nice if it was possible in Linux to do things like 'Install _THIS_ version of Firefox' or '_THIS_ version of OpenCloud'?

That way Linux users could, you know, update the version of Gimp or OpenOffice they are using without having to reinstall the entire operating system (or upgrade it, which is often worse experience).

Of course it does if you completely ignore the traditional Linux software distribution model.

To bad very few distros are working on making installing and maintaining arbitrary software easy.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 8, 2014 17:34 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (3 responses)

Software collections does some of this

https://www.softwarecollections.org/en/

Also NixOS and Lennart's

http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-l...

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 8, 2014 19:22 UTC (Sat) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

Yes. Definately software collections is something I am interested in. However it's probably Lennart's solution that has the best long-term process.

Software should really be built and packaged by upstream in most cases, except for lower-level OS stuff. It would be, in my more perfect world, be the job of the distributions to help upstream do this and make it as easy as possible.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 13:12 UTC (Sun) by hkario (subscriber, #94864) [Link] (1 responses)

Lennart approach still requires /somebody/ to update the packages in base image when (not if) there are security issues in core libraries and then the users needs to know that he or she has to update the base image... - from security PoV that's unworkable

and if you don't care for security - just don't update at all, the software will continue to work

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 14:49 UTC (Sun) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Yes, that is one of the reasons they were using btrfs, the distro can serialize delta updates of the whole file system for efficiently patching.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 0:04 UTC (Sun) by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051) [Link] (9 responses)

Gentoo pretty much offers what you seem to be seeking. YMMV.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 12:32 UTC (Sun) by tterribe (guest, #66972) [Link] (2 responses)

Gentoo has a couple of problems.

1) They are way too aggressive about removing packages from the repository. This often leads to situations where upgrading/installing something pulls in a dependency that's so new it forces upgrades of 50 other packages (and then the process repeats), even though an older version of the package that's been removed from the tree would have avoided the problem.

2) The revdep-rebuild approach to reverse dependency tracking means that you can't always see how big of a mess this will be until you are in the middle of it.

However, if you're willing to pull old packages out of Gentoo's CVS and stick them in a local overlay, you can quite reasonably do what you want here. It just requires a bit more manual effort than it should.

You also run into the general problem that the dependency information in the packages is not always ideal, simply because very few people are testing very new packages in combination with very old ones, so sometimes things get missed (e.g., foo-2.3 requires >=libbar-1.2, but there were no versions of libbar older than 1.2 in the tree when foo-2.3 was packaged, so nobody remembered to update the rule).

But I will say that I have run into similar problems with every distro I've used, and Gentoo is the only one where I have been able to sit down and reasonably solve such problems, every time, in less time than it would have taken to just give up and re-image the OS with the latest Fedora release or whatever.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 23:11 UTC (Sun) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link] (1 responses)

"2) The revdep-rebuild approach to reverse dependency tracking means that you can't always see how big of a mess this will be until you are in the middle of it."

Like all systems, Gentoo is evolving and improving. revdep-rebuild is pretty much a thing of the past (barring bugs). Portage does it automatically nowadays.

Even perlcleaner and python-updater are becoming increasingly unnecessary.

I'm seeing much less breakage these days that needs serious thought to fix up and my last visit to the "tinderbox" or another box for a binary package to get out of a proper mess was a pretty long time ago.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 10, 2014 21:55 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Even perlcleaner and python-updater are becoming increasingly unnecessary.

so when you really need them, they're buggy :-(

Case in point, my latest emerge upgrade crashed because of missing perl modules or something. So I ran perl-cleaner, which crashed because of screwed-up dependencies.

Okay, following the instructions provided with the mess cleaned up the mess, but it wasn't nice :-( It would be nice if things "Just Worked (tm)" :-)

Oh - and one other nice enhancement I'd like to see to portage - which would get rid of a lot of need for --backtrack and the like - is an option that told it NOT to abort on dependency conflicts, but just to drop conflicting packages and carry on. The number of times I've had to manually select a couple of packages from the world list to upgrade, rerun the world list, manually run a few more packages from the list, rinse and repeat, and suddenly the conflict goes away. If I could just tell it to "emerge what you can", it'd probably sort itself in a couple of goes.

Cheers,
Wol

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 21:15 UTC (Sun) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (5 responses)

For a tinkerer, perhaps. But it's completely useless for an audience who don't want to spend their lives in the guts of their distro.

Whereas someone running, say, Windows 7 (because they don't want to touch 8) can trivially use the latest Firefox and Python while remaining on Office 2010.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 9, 2014 23:14 UTC (Sun) by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051) [Link] (4 responses)

Are you talking about Gentoo? The aspect of Gentoo I like is that complex stuff just works, and is well managed. I stay out of the 'guts' much more often than I do with RedHat and descendants in common use cases. (I consider 'guts' to include things like YUM plugins (yum-priorities, etc.), required community repositories (hmm... which one is good *today*?), for example.)

To you other well-made point, yeah, screw tinkerers. They suck, and are sooooo unprofessional. Nothing good comes from tinkering. ;)

You lost me on how the Windows 7/Firefox/Python is relevant here? There's lots of other non-technical business decisions inside Microsoft that underpin the idea of different 'versions' of Windows and critical core libraries.

Cheers.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 10, 2014 0:34 UTC (Mon) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (3 responses)

And this whole comment - wilful ignorance, snottiness and all - is precisely why Linux is and will likely be forever irrelevant outside of embedded uses.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 10, 2014 21:58 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

So why is it that the majority of my support grief comes from one of two sources (usually both together :-) namely

1) Windows
2) Users who ring for support, and half way through telling them what to do the do the exact opposite!

Cheers,
Wol

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 11, 2014 16:45 UTC (Tue) by justcs (guest, #92304) [Link] (1 responses)

Linux runs on a overwhelming majority of Supercomputers as well as desktops in the ISS.

Ubuntu, ownCloud, and a hidden dark side of Linux software repositories (PC World)

Posted Nov 11, 2014 20:45 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I think the conversion on the ISS was a more recent thing (though there is really only 1 of it), but IIRC, there were issues moving to Windows 7 (I'm pretty sure Vista was skipped) related to licensing. Here's a 2013 article that mentions stability concerns, so maybe licensing wasn't everything:

[1]http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155392-international-s...


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