Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 1, 2014 15:15 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106)
In reply to: Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court by neilbrown
Parent article: Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

> I'll choose "Mathematics is what mathematicians do", which seems as good and any of the others. Your identity suggests that "Software is what mathematicians do" is also correct (As software *is* math). I don't find that convincing.

Then the problem is with you, and what you find convincing. You said you wanted something specific, and yet picked the vaguest and least-serious definition on the page. If you're going to go with that definition, however, then it implies that whatever a mathematician does is mathematics. Some mathematicians do software, so software is math. (And some mathematicians walk their dogs, so walking a dog is math... I did say it wasn't a very good definition.)

> As there appears (from that link) that there is no agreement about what math is, I think it would be very hard to argue that software *is* it.

There is no agreement on a single, concise, formal definition. That doesn't mean there isn't consensus on whether particular subject areas fall under the heading of "mathematics". Nearly all mathematicians can be classified as logicist, intuitionist, or formalist, and all three definitions treat software as branch of mathematics. Theories of computation, Turing-completeness, the typed and untyped lambda calculus, proofs and their equivalence to type systems--these are all well-established as being within the mathematical domain.

> But you are correct that I am really arguing that (some kinds of) math should be patent-eligible - at least in part.

With this admission, I believe my work here is done.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 1, 2014 15:58 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (16 responses)

> Nearly all mathematicians can be classified as logicist, intuitionist, or formalist, and all three definitions treat software as branch of mathematics. Theories of computation,...

It's fortunate non-mathematicians consider software as their branch too, so we can get something practical and useful and not just theories.

> With this admission, I believe my work here is done.

Bye!

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 1, 2014 17:39 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (15 responses)

> It's fortunate non-mathematicians consider software as their branch too, so we can get something practical and useful and not just theories.

There are, of course, both theoretical and applied branches of mathematics, just as there are theoretical and applied branches of physics, chemistry, etc. An accountant adding up column of numbers in a spreadsheet is doing math just as much as some tenured university professor working toward a proof of the Cherlin–Zilber conjecture. The programmer who writes the accounting package is also doing math, whether he/she realizes it or not. It takes all kinds. Without the theories there would be no practice; without the practice the theories would serve no purpose.

A programmer can be thought of as a mathematician specializing in applied computer science. The fact that most programmers don't concern themselves with the theoretical underpinnings of their field doesn't make the field any less a branch of mathematics.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 1, 2014 21:48 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (14 responses)

> An accountant adding up column of numbers in a spreadsheet is doing math just as much as some tenured university professor working toward a proof of the Cherlin–Zilber conjecture.

Finally a clear definition of mathematics! :-)

> A programmer can be thought of as a mathematician specializing in applied computer science. The fact that most programmers don't concern themselves with the theoretical underpinnings of their field doesn't make the field any less a branch of mathematics.

I don't in which ivory tower you live but sorry; you clearly have no idea about what is the day job of the average software engineer. Just like for any other engineering field, (computer) science, theory and maths tend to be a extremely small part of it. We could talk about design patterns, continuous integration; bug tracking, workflows, version control, project management, teamwork, release processes, validation, etc. but I'll keep it short and say only this: probably the largest effort in coding is actually communicating with your colleagues and peers - not with the machines.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 1, 2014 23:45 UTC (Tue) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (4 responses)

> probably the largest effort in coding is actually communicating with your colleagues and peers - not with the machines.

But without communicating with the machines you wouldn't be a programmer. You'd be a project manager.

A large part of any job is in the communication. Only very simple jobs don't need it. But each job does have that one important part that separates it from other jobs. The plumbing, programming or scalpel cutting may be a small part of each day but without it you wouldn't be a plumber, programmer or surgeon.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 6:26 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (3 responses)

> The plumbing, programming or scalpel cutting may be a small part of each day but without it you wouldn't be a plumber, programmer or surgeon.

There is a massive difference. When a plumber is actually "plumbing" or a surgeon operating their main task and focus and energy and time are not spent communicating with other human beings; as opposed to when a programmer is writing code. By nature software (or hardware) development is an activity orders of magnitude more "social" than plumbing or surgery (Surgery is actually one of the very least; a significant number of surgeons think they sit somewhere between God and the rest of us - but I digress)

The need to highlight this difference on the *Linux* Weekly News community web site is a bit surprising considering Linux is probably one of the largest collaborative community project ever but there you go.

I am aware that many junior programmers don't realize this until they have gathered some experience; I've witnessed this realization process many times. Sometimes it may come as a disappointment, as in: "what do you mean teamwork and code reviews, I entered this job so I could avoid human interaction?"

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 19:15 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (1 responses)

> When a plumber is actually "plumbing" or a surgeon operating their main task and focus and energy and time are not spent communicating with other human beings; as opposed to when a programmer is writing code. By nature software (or hardware) development is an activity orders of magnitude more "social" than plumbing or surgery

No when a programmer is writing code the primary purpose is "does it work?" If it does not properly tell the computer how to do the job, the code is a FAILURE no matter how pretty or well documented it is.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 23:58 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> No when a programmer is writing code the primary purpose is "does it work?"

Yes, very "primary".

Even if we limit writing code to "make it work" for one second: how much of a mathematical/theoretical effort does "make it work" typically involve? Unless you are 1) successfully fooling your manager and having fun re-inventing some wheels, or 2) working on some exceptional R&D project, the answer is: practically none.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 4, 2014 22:18 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]

By nature software (or hardware) development is an activity orders of magnitude more "social" than plumbing or surgery (Surgery is actually one of the very least; a significant number of surgeons think they sit somewhere between God and the rest of us - but I digress)

A little nitpick: surgeons might be not exactly social and may think they're gods or godesses incarnated, but all of them have to be very efficient communicators. Surgery is a teamwork in the strictest sense of the word and requires constant and effective communication – there are no lone stars in the operating theatre, even if they enjoy behaving in a sligthly operatic style.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 9:21 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (8 responses)

What do you think mathematicians do all day? write equations?

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 9:41 UTC (Wed) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> What do you think mathematicians do all day? write equations?

I have it on good authority that they stare at dots and dashes all day, and think.

http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-power-of-dot...

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 15:03 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (6 responses)

For sure the majority of them is not creating software *products*; because the people who do don't call themselves mathematicians.

If you like you can call software engineering: "Very applied branch of mathematics where you can find plenty jobs even if you barely understood anything in maths class at school", and RTL design: "Very applied branch of physics and chemistry for people who don't need to know them - rather software instead". However I'm afraid this won't ever make much difference to patent law.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 21:53 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (5 responses)

Oh, please. Maths class at school has sod-all to do with actual mathematics (or at least it didn't until very recently, and still doesn't in most of the world). School maths classes are about procedures of computation, which were really useful until we got machines that could do that stuff for us at blazing speed with flawless accuracy. (When was the last time you used long division on paper, which if you're more than a few years out of school I'm sure they spent ages on? What about hand multiplication? Are these useful skills in daily life for random human beings in a modern society any more? I don't think so... we have machines to do that sort of thing now. Hand computation is rapidly going the way of handwriting with fountain pens: a retro skill maintained by a small minority.)

I did really, really badly at school mathematics. So did an awful lot of actual working mathematicians (among whom I am not numbered, I hasten to add). I edged into maths via the lambda calculus and proofs, and was astonished to find that I found it wonderfully easy compared to procedural computation: it felt like programming.

This is, I think, not specific to me being weird. What you need for working mathematics is very much not what you need for school maths classes, and is very much more like what you need for programming: a skill at spotting patterns and rigour in reasoning. It's just that maths has several hundred years' more knowledge behind it, so there's a larger knowledge base than in programming, and it's more interconnected than random programming facts are. But to my eyes that makes maths *more* like the ideal of programming than programming is: both are all about the connections and the patterns and what you can do with them, and maths has more of those than programming does.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 22:26 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (3 responses)

When I wrote "school" I really meant: end of secondary / university. That is: algebra, geometry, analysis,...

Sorry for the confusion.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 10, 2014 17:14 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

Ah, the US English definition of 'school' that I always forget exists. Makes sense now: my rant was misdirected.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 10, 2014 20:27 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

> the US English definition of 'school'

US English? Mmmm... http://www.lse.ac.uk/

Looks like the word "school" can be confusing in many places! For sure the direct translation in French can be very vague too.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 16, 2014 18:46 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Just because there is a term 'school' used in the names of various parts of the UK university system does not mean that it is in common use for parts of the UK university system outside those names. Say that someone is going to school in the UK and your listener (if a BrE speaker) will *not* interpret it as meaning that they are going to university.

Software patents take a beating at the US Supreme Court

Posted Jul 2, 2014 22:33 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Hey, long division is useful - I use it in mental math all the time.