Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 24, 2014 8:29 UTC (Tue) by NAR (subscriber, #1313)
In reply to: Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com) by yann.morin.1998
Parent article: Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

I'm not that sure. Diversity also leads to communication problems, misunderstandings. If you've ever been to a meeting where you can't tell the other person "I don't understand", because he doesn't even understand what I don't understand, then you know what I mean. This all leads to more problems, not to solving problems.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 24, 2014 13:32 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (19 responses)

Sounds like there's some cause and effect mixing here. Saying there are communication problems because you can't communicate that there might be problems feels tautological.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 25, 2014 21:12 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (18 responses)

Sounds like call-centres out-sourced to India.

Yep, I take your point, but it's a major obstacle to inclusivity when the cultural norms diverge so much that meaningful communication is difficult.

It's bad enough when someone local to you doesn't understand you because they're from a different background, but when you've got several thousand miles both literally and culturally between you, it's a major problem.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 26, 2014 9:57 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (17 responses)

And actually it is not just an accent-problem. For example locally when I have to spell a word (especially over phone), I use first names because this is the local convention. Internationally I use the NATO alphabet, because that seems to be understandable, at least by western people. However, I've just overheard a colleague complaining that when he started to spell his userid to a far-eastern support guy over the phone, the support guy asked back "what is echo?". He didn't even seem to understand the concept of spelling - which might be expected if his mother tongue uses a logographic writing system, but still leads to quite much frustration.

It's not just phone conversations - I remember a case when four of us tried to decipher an e-mail written in (supposedly) English. Couldn't even ask clarifying questions, because so little was understandable. And of course there are true cultural differences: mentoring some far-eastern people can be first seen very rewarding, they always answer "Yes" to the "Did you understand?" question - then when they start to work on their own it turns out they didn't understand a word.

Sometimes I just want to get the job done and not wrestle with cultural differences.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 26, 2014 11:57 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (16 responses)

The classic example I like is the story about Churchill and Roosevelt on a battleship in the Atlantic. Someone had a good idea, and Churchill's immediate reaction was to say "let's table it".

Roosevelt was horrified.

Because the phrase has completely opposite meanings in English and American.

Or what about the popular English bumper-sticker - "Keep death off the roads. Drive on the pavement". Unless an American happens to know, the joke will completely pass him by (hint, translated into American, pavement == sidewalk. Translated into English, pavement == roadway).

And that's two peoples who supposedly speak the same - "The English and the Americans are two peoples divided by a common language" :-)

Add to that, the English-speaking peoples are usually mono-lingual and thus incapable of understanding cultural differences/difficulties ...

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 11:12 UTC (Mon) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (15 responses)

>Translated into English, pavement == roadway

Huh, I did not know that.

Most of the books I read, most of the TV and film I watch, most of what I read on the web, was written by Americans. I feel like I have about as good a grasp of American English as anyone who hasn't actually lived there for years, and yet fairly often I still discover that there are words that I didn't realise meant something (subtly or completely) different there because every time I've come across them, the English meaning has worked in context, giving me no reason to believe I've got the wrong end of the stick.

That's a fairly good example actually, because everyone knows that 'sidewalk' is American for 'pavement', but the natural assumption is that the English word *also* means the same thing, but is not idiomatic - like Americans say 'fall', but 'autumn' means the same thing. They might not generally use the word, but they'd know the meaning.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 13:32 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (14 responses)

I like how you use "American English" then proceed to call British English "English" :) . Also, as a (northeastern) American, "pavement" is not used to refer to either normally. I think the only idiomatic ways I use it are when referring to certain parts of road construction (though I think I'd usually use "asphalt" here) or in the "hit the pavement" idiom which is not common for me either (and more likely to be "hit the road"…unless walking is involved). Even those are suspect since "pavement" is not a common term around here.

In England, are the machines which flatten out fresh roads during construction called "pavers"? I don't think those machines are used during sidewalk construction (here at least). Though in looking for a picture of one, I see lots of bricks, so I guess that's where the British term comes from.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 14:01 UTC (Mon) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (5 responses)

>In England, are the machines which flatten out fresh roads during construction called "pavers"?

Assuming I'm picturing the same thing as you, they are called 'steamrollers', though it would not surprise me if steam has not been involved for a century or more.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 14:12 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (4 responses)

Nope, not a steamroller (they're the same here: machine which rides on two large drums you can fill with water to flatten/compress surfaces). This[1] is a paver. It lays the asphalt down in the first place.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paver_(vehicle)

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 14:17 UTC (Mon) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (2 responses)

No idea. I don't think that's something that's referred to frequently enough to be in most people's vocabulary. I'd probably call it 'one of those tarmac laying things' :-). It might be called a 'paver' here technically, although I'd be a little surprised as paving usually implies bricks or slabs or suchlike.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jun 30, 2014 14:50 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

I imagine the difference comes from the British using "paver" stones for sidewalks whereas that's a rare thing here (usually they're bricks when concrete isn't used for sidewalks) and America calling it based on the "paver" machine which lays roads. And they're certainly not referred to often here either; just one of the random fact bubbles I'm familiar with :) .

BTW, there's another difference: "tarmac", to me, is only referred to as such at airports.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 1, 2014 8:24 UTC (Tue) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link]

In the UK:

Where I live, the "pavement" is the colloquial name for what's called the "footway" in official documents.

"The pavement is paved with paving stones."

"The road is paved with tarmac."

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 1, 2014 12:00 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Nope, not a steamroller (they're the same here: machine which rides on two large drums you can fill with water to flatten/compress surfaces).

Except, in English, that is NOT a steamroller. I don't know what's that's called in English, I've never met one.

A steamroller was a steam engine with a cast-iron barrel as its front wheel and two huge cast-iron rear wheels. The name comes from the fact it was powered by steam (replace the front barrel and rear wheels with lighter wheels and it's known as a traction engine). Modern ones are, I suspect, diesel powered but I don't think they've changed much in appearance.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 1, 2014 12:07 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

> I like how you use "American English" then proceed to call British English "English" :)

EXCEPT THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS "BRITISH ENGLISH" !!!

It's like calling Spanish "Mexican English". You have to remember that Britain is NOT a homogenous whole (it's made up of four different countries, for fscking sake! each of which is subdivided!)

As I like to put it, "the Saxons speak English, the Angles speak Scots, and the Scots speak Gaelic".

English and Scots are approximately the same thing (both of Germanic descent). But Gaelic (along with Cornish, British (or Bretonish, or Welsh), and other languages) predates the arrival of English.

Plus the fact, it's extremely infuriating that while for most nations, the country and the language share the same name, why is it the Americans ignore that convention both for themselves, and us!

I am English, goddammit, and I speak ENGLISH, not BRITISH.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 2, 2014 9:30 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (4 responses)

> You have to remember that Britain is NOT a homogenous whole
...
> why is it the Americans ignore that convention both for themselves, and us!

You should too. I cringe every time someone (often themselves) refers to citizens of the U.S. of A. as "Americans". Mexico, Brazil, Ecuador, Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina... where do you think those countries are? It drives me nuts.

You see, everyone has pet peeves.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 2, 2014 12:09 UTC (Wed) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link] (3 responses)

So should I call citizens of the USA as "Usaians"?

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 2, 2014 12:33 UTC (Wed) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Well, if you don't mind writing off your ability to visit the part of the country east of the Rockies and south of Pennsylvania, you could call them Yankees.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 2, 2014 19:26 UTC (Wed) by alonz (subscriber, #815) [Link] (1 responses)

Nah. Usaians are a cult/religion in Sarah Hoyt's sci-fi books.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 2, 2014 20:01 UTC (Wed) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link]

Yes, that was the joke...

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 6, 2014 9:47 UTC (Sun) by ssokolow (guest, #94568) [Link] (1 responses)

I think the idea is that people are contrasting "American" and "Commonwealth" English and referring to the latter as "British English" because it was spread by the "British Empire".

...and, to be honest, "British English" isn't THAT inaccurate a name. It's the form of English used by people on the isle of Great Britain when they choose to speak it. (And three of the four "countries" in the U.K. fit that definition.)

(I quote "countries" because the U.K. is considered one country on the world stage and Scotland is gearing up for a referendum on independence. They're not countries by the the vernacular definition.)

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Posted Jul 9, 2014 16:25 UTC (Wed) by Jonno (subscriber, #49613) [Link]

> I quote "countries" because the U.K. is considered one country on the world stage and Scotland is gearing up for a referendum on independence. They're not countries by the the vernacular definition.

Well, for most of the world they are, it is just American English (and to a lesser extent Canadian English) that reversed the meanings of "state" and "country" after thirteen former colonies continued to refer to themselves as states even after voluntarily giving up statehood in 1789.

England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are no longer independent states, just like the thirteen former colonies in central North America are no longer independent states, but they are all still separate countries.