*facepalm*
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Posted May 15, 2014 8:27 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627)In reply to: *facepalm* by tialaramex
Parent article: Firefox gets closed-source DRM
OTOH if Firefox can't play Netflix then people can and will switch to another browser very easily. That means no net reduction of DRM usage *and* Mozilla's leverage in every other issue we're fighting for is diminished. That would definitely be a big loss for our mission.
Posted May 15, 2014 11:48 UTC (Thu)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (11 responses)
Back then ActiveX was used everywhere. There were plenty IE-only websites on the net. Webmasters did not care about an "open web", they cared about their websites working in IE. Based on your arguments, Mozilla should have implemented ActiveX support and should have forsaken web standards in favour of IE-compatability. Because after all, it needs market share to gain leverage, doesn't it?
Strangely though, it didn't do those things, yet it still managed to change the web and push it in a much more open direction. It was not market share that brought this victory. It was technical excellence, innovative usability features and good security. Webmasters loved it, because reading some specification, following it and having things just work beats having to use trial and error to get something working hands down. Users loved it because they could trust it and Firefox made using the web faster and easier for them.
Posted May 15, 2014 12:01 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
And Mozilla (not Firefox!) had ActiveX support at that time, as a module: http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm
Posted May 15, 2014 12:26 UTC (Thu)
by gerv (guest, #3376)
[Link]
Posted May 15, 2014 12:37 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted May 15, 2014 16:33 UTC (Thu)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 15, 2014 19:07 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 15, 2014 22:04 UTC (Thu)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 15, 2014 22:06 UTC (Thu)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link]
Posted May 15, 2014 13:42 UTC (Thu)
by raven667 (subscriber, #5198)
[Link]
Posted May 15, 2014 15:29 UTC (Thu)
by krake (guest, #55996)
[Link]
Indeed, but it seems Mozilla lost confidence in their product and in their abilities to keep above the competition, to make a prodcut that users would want to use for its strengths.
But I think they still have it in them to eventuell start competing again, just like Internet Explorer got turned around.
Posted May 15, 2014 16:01 UTC (Thu)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (1 responses)
Not implementing ActiveX was a good decision. It didn't much inhibit our market share (and hence influence in other areas), but it probably did discourage Web devs from deploying ActiveX outside intranets. We're doing similar things today, e.g. by refusing to implement PNaCl/Pepper and other non-standard features.
The situation with DRM is totally different. There aren't simple rules that always work; each situation has to be analyzed on its own.
Posted May 21, 2014 22:22 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted May 15, 2014 21:06 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (4 responses)
That's a false dichotomy, and one I'm seeing prominently used as the bogeyman behind this change.
It doesn't match what I'm seeing "in the trenches": people from a wide spectrum of technical ability have little problem switching between multiple browsers (or non-browser programs, or content providers) when one or the other fails to do what they want. It already happens, and nobody seems to mind. They don't immediately abandon or uninstall their day-to-day browser just on account of a website failing to work in it (maybe in part because they've been trained not to trust said website's big "download and run mybrowser.exe to view our shiny!" banner).
I also don't buy the reasoning that Firefox is doing this because it's compelled to give users, developers or website owners what they want in order to survive: Bugzilla is littered with plenty of evidence to the contrary. Here's one example — it's a WebRTC interoperability bug (which I got bitten by recently while searching for open Skype alternatives), marked wontfix with some harsh developer responses. As a web developer myself I've followed the MNG/JNG/APNG/WebP circus for well over 10 years; Mozilla still refuses to back down or compromise on that even though all sides have already lost (except Google, who uses it as a selling point for their "faster browser" since they can optimise both ends of the wire).
The list could go on longer than two examples, but I think it makes the point clear even without mentioning UI experiments.
There's plenty of history to suggest Mozilla is quite capable of saying no to implementing an anti-feature like EME, or at the very least, organising to make it painful for the bad guys to actually use. But in reality the exact opposite is happening — the relative quickness (and uniqueness) of this about-face regarding support for encumbered codecs and DRM over the last few months, and the subtle PR shift that came with it, is concerning.
Posted May 16, 2014 8:20 UTC (Fri)
by gerv (guest, #3376)
[Link]
Posted May 16, 2014 11:16 UTC (Fri)
by krake (guest, #55996)
[Link]
It is likely that this case is different because there are a lot of wealthy companies that gain a lot through that change and are almost certainly be generous in their rewards.
Adobe, for example, would have no selling point left for their DRM system now that Flash is on the way out. This deal allows them to keep that part of their business alive.
Which will very likely result in a second corporate sponsor for Mozilla (additional to Google), so it is a win-win situation for the two companies.
Posted May 16, 2014 14:48 UTC (Fri)
by tterribe (guest, #66972)
[Link]
What you're seeing in that WebRTC bug is someone attempting to rehash an argument they already lost in the rtcweb WG at the IETF (see comments 7 and 9). Our developers were understandably not amused.
This is a classic example of Mozilla pushing for real standards built through an open process instead of "whatever browser X happens to ship". In other words, exactly the kind of good we're able to do because we have market share.
I'm not going to touch the image format debate, because people tend not to respond rationally, but I will say that it is obviously impossible to give everyone what they want all the time. Citing two examples where we have not given someone exactly what they wanted does not imply that there is not some imperative to build a product that people actually want to use in order to have some kind of influence.
Posted May 19, 2014 6:41 UTC (Mon)
by Arker (guest, #14205)
[Link]
I have never known anyone to switch away from firefox because a specific site didnt want to work with it no matter how important the site. I have known dozens to switch after I gave up and quit fixing the cascading UI breakage caused by updating it, however.
*facepalm*
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Mozilla achieved all it's early successes in the five year hiatus between MS IE 6 and MS IE 7 (when Microsoft decided in it's arrogance to conduct Crime #1 of a software development which basically destroyed the whole house of cards). Today Mozilla's competitors are not stupid enough to do the same mistake.
*facepalm*
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I think you memory is failing you. MS IE 6 release data: August 27, 2001. MS IE 7 release date: October 18, 2006. It's true that Mozilla spent first two years trying to fix their own mess, but that “lost” time was important, too: in these two years where browser capabilities (MS IE 5/5.5/6 for most users) were severely limited and known they were able to catch up and create more-or-less compatible thing.
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OTOH if Firefox can't play Netflix then people can and will switch to another browser very easily.
*facepalm*
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> bitten by recently while searching for open Skype alternatives), marked
> wontfix with some harsh developer responses.
*facepalm*