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*facepalm*

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 8:27 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627)
In reply to: *facepalm* by tialaramex
Parent article: Firefox gets closed-source DRM

Wikipedia is different. It has no realistic competition so Wikimedia have a lot of leeway to make whatever decisions they want. They can't be easily replaced.

OTOH if Firefox can't play Netflix then people can and will switch to another browser very easily. That means no net reduction of DRM usage *and* Mozilla's leverage in every other issue we're fighting for is diminished. That would definitely be a big loss for our mission.


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*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 11:48 UTC (Thu) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] (11 responses)

I've read this assumption several times that Mozilla has to retain its market share to be able to achieve its goal of an open web. But is this actually true? Mozilla has already changed the web. And it did so despite having 0 market share at the start.

Back then ActiveX was used everywhere. There were plenty IE-only websites on the net. Webmasters did not care about an "open web", they cared about their websites working in IE. Based on your arguments, Mozilla should have implemented ActiveX support and should have forsaken web standards in favour of IE-compatability. Because after all, it needs market share to gain leverage, doesn't it?

Strangely though, it didn't do those things, yet it still managed to change the web and push it in a much more open direction. It was not market share that brought this victory. It was technical excellence, innovative usability features and good security. Webmasters loved it, because reading some specification, following it and having things just work beats having to use trial and error to get something working hands down. Users loved it because they could trust it and Firefox made using the web faster and easier for them.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 12:01 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Please, don't exaggerate. ActiveX had never been popular, it was used mostly for specialized applications like bank clients or internal systems.

And Mozilla (not Firefox!) had ActiveX support at that time, as a module: http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 12:26 UTC (Thu) by gerv (guest, #3376) [Link]

We did have to implement some IE compatibility things to avoid breaking too many sites. We avoided ActiveX in the core, although there was a plugin. We had to do document.all (in a clever undetectable way), marquee, and perhaps some others.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 12:37 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (4 responses)

Mozilla achieved all it's early successes in the five year hiatus between MS IE 6 and MS IE 7 (when Microsoft decided in it's arrogance to conduct Crime #1 of a software development which basically destroyed the whole house of cards). Today Mozilla's competitors are not stupid enough to do the same mistake.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 16:33 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (3 responses)

I think that's right. The situation in the IE6 era was really bad in many ways, but Microsoft's IE hiatus (which was only 3 years actually) gave us leeway to make some decisions that we couldn't have afforded to make otherwise.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 19:07 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

I think you memory is failing you. MS IE 6 release data: August 27, 2001. MS IE 7 release date: October 18, 2006. It's true that Mozilla spent first two years trying to fix their own mess, but that “lost” time was important, too: in these two years where browser capabilities (MS IE 5/5.5/6 for most users) were severely limited and known they were able to catch up and create more-or-less compatible thing.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 22:04 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

IE7 didn't appear out of nowhere. As I remember it (inferring from what employees were doing) Microsoft shut down IE development for 3 years. I guess it might have been 4, but definitely less than 5.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 22:06 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Er, a 1-year lead time for IE7 development would make it 4 years. So, 3-4 years.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 13:42 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Mozilla and Firefox still allowed you to run non-Free plugins such as Flash, or Java which is maybe a better analogy. They've worked hard to try and get people away from Flash by helping extend open web technologies to cover the most common use cases.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 15:29 UTC (Thu) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

> It was technical excellence, innovative usability features and good security.

Indeed, but it seems Mozilla lost confidence in their product and in their abilities to keep above the competition, to make a prodcut that users would want to use for its strengths.

But I think they still have it in them to eventuell start competing again, just like Internet Explorer got turned around.

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 16:01 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

In the IE6 era Firefox started gaining market share rapidly. We gained market share because we had a few good features IE didn't have --- particularly tabs and popup blocking ... and the hiatus in IE development gave us free reign in the market. If we'd stayed stuck at 0 market share we would have had zero impact on Web developers or anything else.

Not implementing ActiveX was a good decision. It didn't much inhibit our market share (and hence influence in other areas), but it probably did discourage Web devs from deploying ActiveX outside intranets. We're doing similar things today, e.g. by refusing to implement PNaCl/Pepper and other non-standard features.

The situation with DRM is totally different. There aren't simple rules that always work; each situation has to be analyzed on its own.

*facepalm*

Posted May 21, 2014 22:22 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Pedant point: it's "free rein", not "free reign". The term relates to horseriding, not kings. (It is thus a metaphor which has gone thoroughly stale, which adequately explains this eggcorn, I think.)

*facepalm*

Posted May 15, 2014 21:06 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (4 responses)

OTOH if Firefox can't play Netflix then people can and will switch to another browser very easily.

That's a false dichotomy, and one I'm seeing prominently used as the bogeyman behind this change.

It doesn't match what I'm seeing "in the trenches": people from a wide spectrum of technical ability have little problem switching between multiple browsers (or non-browser programs, or content providers) when one or the other fails to do what they want. It already happens, and nobody seems to mind. They don't immediately abandon or uninstall their day-to-day browser just on account of a website failing to work in it (maybe in part because they've been trained not to trust said website's big "download and run mybrowser.exe to view our shiny!" banner).

I also don't buy the reasoning that Firefox is doing this because it's compelled to give users, developers or website owners what they want in order to survive: Bugzilla is littered with plenty of evidence to the contrary. Here's one example — it's a WebRTC interoperability bug (which I got bitten by recently while searching for open Skype alternatives), marked wontfix with some harsh developer responses. As a web developer myself I've followed the MNG/JNG/APNG/WebP circus for well over 10 years; Mozilla still refuses to back down or compromise on that even though all sides have already lost (except Google, who uses it as a selling point for their "faster browser" since they can optimise both ends of the wire).

The list could go on longer than two examples, but I think it makes the point clear even without mentioning UI experiments.

There's plenty of history to suggest Mozilla is quite capable of saying no to implementing an anti-feature like EME, or at the very least, organising to make it painful for the bad guys to actually use. But in reality the exact opposite is happening — the relative quickness (and uniqueness) of this about-face regarding support for encumbered codecs and DRM over the last few months, and the subtle PR shift that came with it, is concerning.

*facepalm*

Posted May 16, 2014 8:20 UTC (Fri) by gerv (guest, #3376) [Link]

It was not particularly quick. It may seem so, because in order to get as good a deal as we've managed from a CDM vendor, we had to be prepared to walk away if the deal wasn't good enough (and I believe we were). And discussing our exact strategy in public would have blown up most of that negotiating leverage.

*facepalm*

Posted May 16, 2014 11:16 UTC (Fri) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

> There's plenty of history to suggest Mozilla is quite capable of saying no to implementing an anti-feature like EME, or at the very least, organising to make it painful for the bad guys to actually use. But in reality the exact opposite is happening

It is likely that this case is different because there are a lot of wealthy companies that gain a lot through that change and are almost certainly be generous in their rewards.

Adobe, for example, would have no selling point left for their DRM system now that Flash is on the way out. This deal allows them to keep that part of their business alive.

Which will very likely result in a second corporate sponsor for Mozilla (additional to Google), so it is a win-win situation for the two companies.

*facepalm*

Posted May 16, 2014 14:48 UTC (Fri) by tterribe (guest, #66972) [Link]

> Here's one example — it's a WebRTC interoperability bug (which I got
> bitten by recently while searching for open Skype alternatives), marked
> wontfix with some harsh developer responses.

What you're seeing in that WebRTC bug is someone attempting to rehash an argument they already lost in the rtcweb WG at the IETF (see comments 7 and 9). Our developers were understandably not amused.

This is a classic example of Mozilla pushing for real standards built through an open process instead of "whatever browser X happens to ship". In other words, exactly the kind of good we're able to do because we have market share.

I'm not going to touch the image format debate, because people tend not to respond rationally, but I will say that it is obviously impossible to give everyone what they want all the time. Citing two examples where we have not given someone exactly what they wanted does not imply that there is not some imperative to build a product that people actually want to use in order to have some kind of influence.

*facepalm*

Posted May 19, 2014 6:41 UTC (Mon) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]

Everyone I have switched to Firefox over the past decade has had a backup browser that they use for one or two 'special' websites that they must use for some reason but refuse to, well, be websites. Even the most nontechnical can get the concept of 'one browser good, safe to use, other browser very insecure, must use for task x and y but avoid otherwise.' This was never a threat to firefox market share, quite the opposite, it helped regular people become and stay aware of the challenges the free and open web faces.

I have never known anyone to switch away from firefox because a specific site didnt want to work with it no matter how important the site. I have known dozens to switch after I gave up and quit fixing the cascading UI breakage caused by updating it, however.


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