Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica) [LWN.net]

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 9, 2014 20:22 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

go ahead and try, to do so you will need to create a lot of programmers around the world, and that will be a win even if there is no reduction in programming in the USA.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 9, 2014 20:42 UTC (Fri) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] (15 responses)

Would moving programmers abroad help in this case? Suppose that the act of copying happened outside the United States. Would Google still be responsible in the US courts?

Suppose that only the Google management is US based. Would that change anything?

Suppose that Google has no physical presence in the US. Would it be possible for Oracle to block their sales in the US because of the API copying?

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 9, 2014 21:05 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (12 responses)

This is a frequent cry, based on the idea that if programming is done outside the US then opensource can then ignore the US and let it spiral down into doom on it's own.

This assumes that the US government would let this happen (what we're seeing with treaty games makes that questionable at best) and that programmers are just going to up and move

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 9, 2014 22:42 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Well, this is somewhat done for tax reasons already.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 11, 2014 12:11 UTC (Sun) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (10 responses)

Moving "outside the US" is more a matter of mindset than of geography.

I have a friend who does a lot of online freelance work while living in the US. The thing is, he only takes non-US clients. They pay him in bitcoin and he works remotely.

Suppose the US passes a law requiring every person under their jurisdiction who does the kind of work he is doing to have a college degree and a state-issued license? Would that law have any practical impact on his life at all? This person is is "outside the US" in terms of operating beyond their effective control in his business relationships.

It's currently the case that businesses have a tougher time of it because of their higher visibility, but that's changing too. I expect that within a year projects like Open-Transactions will have a complete software stack suitable for creating and operating purely virtual companies, and the rest of the cryptocurrency ecosystem will be sufficiently developed that operating companies of a non-trivial size with no physical nexus at all will be a real possibility.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 16:06 UTC (Mon) by bcopeland (subscriber, #51750) [Link] (9 responses)

> Suppose the US passes a law requiring every person under their jurisdiction who does the kind of work he is doing to have a college degree and a state-issued license? Would that law have any practical impact on his life at all? This person is is "outside the US" in terms of operating beyond their effective control in his business relationships.

You can bet at least the IRS would not consider someone residing in the US as beyond their effective control.

Also, it's likely that this freelancer needs a state issued (business) license already. As someone who freelances for US companies from outside the US, you don't get to avoid regulation just by crossing borders. If anything, it's much more complicated.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 16:55 UTC (Mon) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (8 responses)

You can bet at least the IRS would not consider someone residing in the US as beyond their effective control.

The question is not what the IRS considers or not. They they can have any opinion they want - the question is whather or not they have the ability to turn their opinion into enforcement. Technology is rendering them increasingly impotent in this regard.

Also, it's likely that this freelancer needs a state issued (business) license already. As someone who freelances for US companies from outside the US, you don't get to avoid regulation just by crossing borders. If anything, it's much more complicated.

You're using a bureaucratic definition of the word "need" that has nothing to do with objective reality.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 17:28 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (7 responses)

Remember that what took down Al Capone was failure to pay his taxes, I think the IRS has enough enforcement ability if they choose to use it.

And if they think that someone is going out of their way to avoid paying taxes (and I'm pretty sure that working only for bitcoins would do that), they will be trying to make an example of the person to discourage others.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 19:02 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (3 responses)

> And if they think that someone is going out of their way to avoid paying taxes (and I'm pretty sure that working only for bitcoins would do that), they will be trying to make an example of the person to discourage others.

That's quite a leap, assuming that "working for bitoins" implies "doesn't pay taxes". There are people who work for bitcoins now and still pay taxes. As long as you do, the IRS is legally prohibited from using the contents of your return for any other purpose or providing that data to other branches of the government for enforcement. Due to 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination, it came down to either restricting the use of tax returns to tax-related purposes or being unable to make income reporting mandatory; they chose the former. You could put "proceeds from bank robbery" on your tax form and so long as you paid income tax on it, that would be the end of the matter.

Or as applied to this situation, so long as you report your Bitcoin income to the IRS, other regulatory agencies would still (legally) have to uncover your lack of licensing on their own. At least in theory; practice must allow for "anonymous tips" and parallel construction.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 19:17 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

see the posts from jackb who brought up this example. He is saying that the IRS and local governments have no way of discovering this income and so they would not do anything about it.

That would hardly be the case if the income was being reported to the IRS

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 20:13 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

Didn't the IRS state that they'll treat bitcoin as an investment or something such that the tax happens when you cash out? If you never cash out…

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 20:57 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

If you never cash out, how do you pay your electric bill?

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 12, 2014 19:08 UTC (Mon) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (2 responses)

I think the IRS has enough enforcement ability if they choose to use it.

I might think that a full tank of gasoline in my car contains enough energy to launch the car into low earth orbit, but before I went out in public presenting my vague feelings as truth I'd do some quick calculations to make sure the math worked out.

Let's take a look at something that was mentioned earlier in the thread:

it's likely that this freelancer needs a state issued (business) license already

This is a fine example of weaponized language. The word "need" is commonly understood to mean "not possible without" as in, "A human needs oxygen in order to live", or a "a rocket needs energy in order to achieve orbit." By using "need" to describe the dictates of bueracrats, the writer was intending to trick readers into associating the immutablity of the laws of nature with the mere threats by some random person which he may or may not be able to back up with effective action.

We can de-euphemise that sentence into a form that allows for critical examination as follows:

it's likely that, if certain employees of the state discover the freelancer offering his services to foreign customers without their permission, they will attempt to punish him.

Once translated, then you can see the relevant question is not "does the freelancer need a license to export?" but rather, "If the freelancer exports without permission, will he be punished?"

Once you're asking the right question, then it's a matter of breaking the problem down in to manageable pieces:

What methods do these bureaucrats have to detect when someone is exporting programming services without their permission, and how effective are they?
What countermeasures can the freelancer employ to avoid detection, and how effective are those countermeasures?
Once a bureaucrat has determined that he wants to punish someone, what methods of punishment can he employ to accomplish this?
What methods exist via which the freelancer can reduce his attack surface regarding vulnerability to punishment, and how expensive are they to employ?

Peer-to-peer finance technologies, including Bitcoin, and cryptography in general are increasingly shifting the answers to all those questions in a direction that is more favorable to the freelancer than favorable to the bureaucrat. This is the basis for my original claim that, "Moving "outside the US" is more a matter of mindset than of geography."

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 13, 2014 22:11 UTC (Tue) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

While it's all very nice to theorise about companies without a physical location, they're are going run into problems. For example, this freelancer presumably has a contract with these foreign customers specifying terms of payment. Under what jurisdiction is this contract signed? What does he want to do if someone doesn't pay, or in some other way violates the contract? You could pick another country, but it's a PITA if you need to turn up in court.

Any company with employees is going to require these employees to be recognised in the normal way with a normal contract, otherwise those employees are going to have difficulty getting, for example, a mortgage. Or even social security. So that leaves the freelancers.

It is true that a handful of freelancers may make the choice to try to avoid taxes this way, but it won't happen on any kind of scale. I doubt enough to attract the attention of the IRS specifically.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 13, 2014 22:33 UTC (Tue) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link]

While it's all very nice to theorise about companies without a physical location, they're are going run into problems. For example, this freelancer presumably has a contract with these foreign customers specifying terms of payment. Under what jurisdiction is this contract signed? What does he want to do if someone doesn't pay, or in some other way violates the contract? You could pick another country, but it's a PITA if you need to turn up in court.

Oh man, you're right. Too bad nobody involved in the cryptocurrency movement has realized that could be a problem and started working on a solution.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 9, 2014 22:09 UTC (Fri) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] (1 responses)

The reproduction of a API for interoperability purposes is explicitly permitted in Australia's copyright law. So the program could be legally written in Australia. Even by the Australian office of a multinational company headquartered in the USA.

However, importers of goods into the US are responsible for ensuring that the goods meet US laws, including your copyright law. So the goods wouldn't be able to be sold in the US market. And so on for other countries, depending on each country's copyright laws.

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 10, 2014 10:35 UTC (Sat) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> The reproduction of a API for interoperability purposes is explicitly permitted in Australia's copyright law. So the program could be legally written in Australia. Even by the Australian office of a multinational company headquartered in the USA.

Same situation in EU. It has also been tested in the EU highest court in 2012.

Ars summary: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/05/eus-top-court-...

Text of the ruling: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&...

Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules (Ars Techica)

Posted May 10, 2014 6:09 UTC (Sat) by dakas (guest, #88146) [Link]

Why do you think the U.S.A. is negotiating "Trade Freedom" treaties in dark rooms with cash glory holes?

Any corporation will be able to sue entire states out of existence when they don't get the unfair advantages abroad that the U.S. legal system hands them on a platter at home.