Debian TC vote on init system coupling

Posted Feb 24, 2014 9:38 UTC (Mon) by mbunkus (subscriber, #87248)
In reply to: Debian TC vote on init system coupling by AngryChris
Parent article: Debian TC vote on init system coupling

Ian Jackson is certainly not trying to sabotage anything. His concerns are very real. Before this vote there has been a lively discussion about the exact wording of the ballot and all the options it contains. There have been amendments. All of this by all members of the TC, not just the perceived anti-systemd camp. Yes, I've taken the time to read pretty much everything on the ctte list.

I, as a very happy systemd user and proponent, am glad that there are people like Ian Jackson who look at the bigger picture and engage in a reasonable discussion on the advantages and disadvantages of concentrating on single init system. In a situation as emotionally charged as this debate it's relieving to see such an in-depth discussion among the TC members, and I regard all of them very highly for it.

Debian TC vote on init system coupling

Posted Feb 24, 2014 10:09 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

I agree that his concerns are real, but I don't find his way of dealing with the concerns very reasonable.

He doesn't want any tight coupling. I've invited various times on behalf of GNOME just to talk to us directly (in generic to ctte, in private and directly to Ian). I've asked various times to suggest concrete solutions (because I don't see them). All of that has been ignored.

Instead over and over again it is suggested that "upstreams are pushing systemd" (not true and it is starting to become questionable why this is still being repeated after all the communication from at least GNOME side), stuff about purposely not wanting to look at concrete examples (I find this utterly amazing) and something like "upstream has to listen to Debian" (while they're not responding when invited).

I see that Ian has great doubts, but when invited to talk about it, don't go hiding in a corner and cry wolf. My patience is getting thin. I expect that the vote won't go his way, but I tried over and over again that this vote is unneeded anyway. People do what is reasonable, if Debian decides on something I'll follow or not because of the reasoning, not because of "Debian says so" (that is not going to convince anyone).

IMO, it is becoming stop energy and that'll be ignored. He's more than capable to do things (provide/write alternative implementations, engage in technical discussion, etc). Same for other CTTE members. That is a fruitful way of dealing with this (technical work or discussion).

Now systemd is not just a GNOME issue, I know because I/we talk about it a lot it just seems to be viewed as a problem solely with us. Then you get the "GNOME is bad" and "you don't need that functionality" kind of reactions (not talking about Ian). But that's terribly easy way of dealing with things.

I don't see this vote going anywhere. It'll go to a GR anyway. While all the time could be used to properly explain what you want concretely to the various upstreams. Now possibly after 2.5 years we'll get a short GR summary stating like "you cannot depend on systemd" which we'll respond with as "we don't" and "whatever" (especially after trying to start a communication so many times).

Debian TC vote on init system coupling

Posted Feb 24, 2014 18:51 UTC (Mon) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

> His concerns are very real

His concerns may be very real, but they (a) are heavily obscured by his tactics and (b) seem to go beyond Debian and into the broader free software world, as far as I can ascertain them. But I'm not sure I can, because of (a).