Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Posted Feb 11, 2014 20:15 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313)In reply to: Of course this goes to a General Resolution by pizza
Parent article: The Debian technical committee vote concludes
But when their people start browbeating others for not agreeing with them, there is a problem.
code talks, but people should be free to not use the code as well.
Posted Feb 11, 2014 20:30 UTC (Tue)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (20 responses)
Pray tell who is forcing you to use this code...
Posted Feb 11, 2014 22:08 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (19 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 1:09 UTC (Wed)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (18 responses)
True, there are some systemd champions here that are somewhat too shrill. But please look also at the anti-systemd people around here, with their accusations of all sort of world-wide conspiracies, forcing people to destroy the distributions they have worked hard to build, and so on. Please don't just look at one side of the flame war.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 1:13 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (17 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 1:51 UTC (Wed)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (11 responses)
Source, please? I've read a lot by Lennart, but I don't remember any such comment.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 2:06 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 2:32 UTC (Wed)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (4 responses)
So this is just another myth. Just as I thought.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 2:37 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 2:42 UTC (Wed)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 2:56 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 9:28 UTC (Wed)
by xav (guest, #18536)
[Link]
Posted Feb 12, 2014 3:02 UTC (Wed)
by hadrons123 (guest, #72126)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 3:27 UTC (Wed)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (3 responses)
I found
https://lwn.net/Articles/534443/
Which is dlang making a similar statement about a year ago but with specific reference to Ubuntu, and
https://archive.fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-lennart-p...
which contains
> However, one of our other goals was to unify the fragmented Linux landscape, reducing the various lower-level differences between the distributions, and I guess we only partially succeeded with that. We did not convince the Ubuntu folks that systemd and unification was a worthy goal, and we certainly have to take (at least partial) blame for that.
which relates fairly well to the earlier statement by dlang (less well to the recent one).
So it seems that Lennart certainly did connect the ideas of not using systemd with fragmenting the Linux landscape (or at least: not unifying it). This example isn't exactly an accusation though. Maybe my google-fu isn't up to finding the actual accusation.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 3:42 UTC (Wed)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
I'm sorry, but "we hope to reduce fragmentation" sounds far from accusing others of actively fragmenting Linux. Lennart might be quite abrasive at times, highly convinced that he is right (and for the fury of his opponents, he has the nerve to be right most of the time), absolutely opposed to compromising what he works on, but not trying to force anybody. Besides, it is free software. Don't like it? Fork it, write your own, or use something else.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 19:18 UTC (Wed)
by suy (guest, #81959)
[Link]
Posted Feb 14, 2014 11:32 UTC (Fri)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
Precisely -- "not unifying" is the keyword here. Who the hell needs three different locations for startup scripts, with different boilerplate function libraries, support like start-stop-daemon present or not; multiple possible locations for /etc/hostname, let alone how to set it without rebooting …
… I'd have to agree with Lennart that there are better (and more productive) ways for Linux distributions to be distinctive than how to do things like that.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 18:05 UTC (Wed)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 22:38 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Feb 13, 2014 1:33 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
Just what are you talking about? How is he pushing anybody? How are those systemd proponents you're talking about applying any pressure? What means do they even have? The only thing that Poettering does to make people use systemd rather than the alternatives is to make sure it works better than they do. This isn't called “pressure” or “pushing”, it's called “doing a great job”.
Posted Feb 13, 2014 13:01 UTC (Thu)
by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link] (1 responses)
Hounding everyone who doesn't agree a 100% with them whenever the subject comes up ?
> What means do they even have?
Apparently an infinite amount of time and a frightening amount of zeal.
> The only thing that Poettering does to make people use systemd rather than the alternatives is to make sure it works better than they do.
Alternatively, maybe systemd just convinced some that it works better by specifically catering to their needs. Then these "some"--comfortable in their majority--are so convinced they're on the side of righteousness and that they're part of the "one true way" forward that they will gladly and incessantly confront any undesirables with their erroneous ways and deviant thinking.
In short: systemd does nothing for me technically, and socially its track record is a trainwreck. I don't want to go near systemd for the same reason I don't want to go near OpenBSD; the development culture is just so different from what I'm used to that I want to stay as far away from it as possible. Now if only systemd would extend the same courtesy towards me, but apparently that's not a possibility; optional compliance doesn't seem to be on the roadmap forward.
Posted Feb 13, 2014 13:52 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
In fact, it's the other way around: it's people like *you* who would like to force people like the gnome and Debian developers to continue to maintain and support software stacks that they themselves consider obsolete. Luckily, just like the systemd developers, you don't have any means to do that.
Posted Feb 11, 2014 21:18 UTC (Tue)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (5 responses)
What you can't do ise demand that the Magic Code Fairies and Rainbow Distribution Ponies work on a bunch of code they've given up on because you want them to.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 17:55 UTC (Wed)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 20:40 UTC (Wed)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (3 responses)
"It's hard to say whether moving to these technologies would be a good thing for Slackware overall. Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable ... With udev being phased out in favor of systemd performing those tasks we'll have to make the decision at some point between whether we want to try to maintain udev ourselves, have systemd replace just udev's functions, or if we want the whole kit and caboodle."
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/int...
It's not something he's particularly enthusiastic about, but may do anyway.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 21:29 UTC (Wed)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (2 responses)
The snippet concerning "replacing udev functions" is a red flag concerning the amount of misinformation he's already digested from somewhere. It's going to be extremely hard for him to make a good informed decision if he's relying on factually incorrect information.
Posted Feb 12, 2014 22:26 UTC (Wed)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 12, 2014 22:30 UTC (Wed)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
-jef
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Given the current state of affairs where pretty much every major distro has switched or will switch to systemd, it is a *fact* that distros who don't adopt systemd are causing fragmentation. This is not a matter of opinion any longer. What is a matter of opinion is whether this fragmentation is good or bad. I think it's bad, and so does Lennart Poettering, and that's his prerogative and you shouldn't flame him for doing that.
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
> Apparently an infinite amount of time and a frightening amount of zeal.
...aren't means to force anybody to do anything. Maybe to annoy them on the internet, but then it's really simple to avoid that: just stay out of the discussion entirely. I certainly wouldn't be writing this if you hadn't spread false accusations and lies about systemd and its developers and supporters.
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Now this sounds interesting. When and where did he say that?
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution
Of course this goes to a General Resolution