Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 14, 2014 16:15 UTC (Tue) by lbt (subscriber, #29672)
In reply to: Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes) by raven667
Parent article: Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Yep :

complete root access
ability to replace the kernel
ability to replace
ability to run on other devices
being based on a

the entire stack GNU/Linux openly developed stack which you can push patches to showpost.php?p=1399188&postcount=40">Here is Stskeeps' comments on the bootloader at talk.maemo.org step in the right direction? You tell me :) a yawn to anyone who's principles demand that they only use a GTA04 style device - but if you want a smartphone running a modern linux then this may be for you. development is open and is done on open infra. blobs from our suppliers, some 3rd party apps and yes, the UI layer and apps are closed at the moment (we need to exist in a harsh commercial environment and survival is a key prerequisite to any improvements in this area) We're small and resource constrained - but I can guarantee that our hearts and minds are in the right places. as a matter of interest: 13:40:01 2014 from 10.0.0.108 (armv7hl) -ef | grep -v \\\[ TIME CMD 00:00:05 /sbin/init --unit=default.target 00:00:32 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd 00:01:28 /lib/systemd/systemd-journald 00:00:00 /sbin/droid-hal-init 00:00:02 /usr/sbin/ohmd --no-daemon 00:00:02 /usr/sbin/usb_moded 00:16:57 /system/bin/sensord 00:00:02 /system/bin/ssr_diag 00:00:00 /system/bin/subsystem_ramdump 1 00:00:02 /system/bin/mm-qcamera-daemon 00:00:00 /system/bin/qseecomd 00:00:01 /system/bin/qseecomd 00:00:38 /usr/sbin/dsme -p /usr/lib/dsme/libstartup.so --systemd 00:00:24 /usr/sbin/dsme-server -p /usr/lib/dsme/libstartup.so --systemd 00:00:43 /system/bin/rild 00:00:00 /system/bin/logd2 00:00:12 /system/bin/thermald 00:00:09 /system/bin/rmt_storage 00:00:03 /system/bin/qmuxd 00:00:01 /system/bin/netmgrd 00:00:05 /usr/sbin/bluetoothd -n 00:04:00 /usr/sbin/connmand -n 00:04:01 /lib/systemd/systemd-logind 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/tohd 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/apkd 00:03:57 /bin/dbus-daemon --system --address=systemd: --nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation 00:02:14 /usr/bin/statefs /run/state -f --system -o allow_other,gid=100 00:00:06 /usr/sbin/ofonod -n --noplugin=dun_gw,hfp,hfp_ag 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/connman-vpnd -n 00:00:00 /usr/bin/odnpd 00:01:12 /usr/sbin/mce --systemd 00:06:51 /usr/libexec/upowerd 00:00:20 /usr/libexec/polkit-1/polkitd --no-debug 00:00:14 /lib/systemd/systemd --user 00:00:00 (sd-pam) 00:00:00 /usr/bin/ohm-session-agent 00:00:35 /usr/bin/timed-qt5 --systemd 00:00:29 /bin/dbus-daemon --session --address=systemd: --nofork --systemd-activation 00:00:00 /usr/bin/profiled 00:00:25 /usr/bin/statefs /run/user/100000/state -f -o allow_other 00:00:02 /usr/bin/ngfd 00:00:00 /usr/bin/tonegend -b 100 -r 20 --volume-dtmf 15 00:00:03 /usr/bin/voicecall-manager 00:00:00 /usr/libexec/mapplauncherd/booster-generic --systemd 00:00:02 /usr/bin/connectionagent 03:13:39 /usr/bin/lipstick -plugin evdevtouch:/dev/input/event0:rotate=0 -plugin evdevkeyboard:keymap=/usr/share/qt5/keymaps/boston.qmap --systemd 00:00:05 /usr/libexec/tracker-store 00:00:00 /usr/libexec/mapplauncherd/booster-qt5 --systemd --boot-mode 00:00:01 /usr/bin/ambienced 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o -s --type=generic /usr/bin/ambienced 00:03:06 /usr/bin/messageserver5 00:02:57 /usr/bin/msyncd 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -G -o -s --type=qt5 /usr/bin/msyncd 00:00:03 /usr/bin/jolla-signon-ui 00:00:02 /usr/libexec/gconfd-2 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o --type=generic --global-syms /usr/bin/messageserver5 00:02:07 /usr/bin/pulseaudio --start -n --file=/etc/pulse/arm_qct_msm8930_cdp.pa 00:00:33 /usr/libexec/mission-control-5 00:00:00 /usr/libexec/telepathy-ring 00:00:05 /usr/sbin/wpa_supplicant -u -f /var/log/wpa_supplicant.log -c /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf -O/var/run/wpa_supplicant -u -f /var/log/wpa_supplicant.log -P /var/run/wpa_supplicant.pid 00:00:13 /usr/libexec/telepathy-sasl-signon 00:00:01 /usr/libexec/obexd --nodaemon --capability !/usr/bin/obex-capability --noplugin=ftp,irmc,mas,pbap,syncevolution 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker --type=generic /usr/libexec/telepathy-sasl-signon 00:00:00 /usr/libexec/mapplauncherd/booster-qtquick2 --systemd 00:00:00 /usr/libexec/mapplauncherd/booster-silica-qt5 --systemd 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o -s --type=qt5 /usr/bin/jolla-signon-ui 00:00:11 /usr/bin/maliit-server 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o --type=qt5 /usr/bin/commhistoryd 00:00:06 /usr/bin/commhistoryd 00:04:41 /usr/bin/contactsd 00:01:48 /usr/bin/voicecall-ui -prestart 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o -s --type=silica-qt5 /usr/bin/voicecall-ui -prestart 00:00:00 /usr/bin/invoker -o -s --global-syms --type=qt5 /usr/bin/contactsd 00:00:01 /usr/libexec/tracker-miner-fs 00:00:00 /system/bin/mm-pp-daemon 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/bin/alien_init 00:00:00 vmtouch -tlq /lib/ld-2.15.so /lib/libc-2.15.so _snip_ 00:13:38 /system/bin/mpdecision --no_sleep --avg_comp 00:00:07 /opt/alien/system/bin/alienlogd 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/bin/servicemanager 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/bin/installd 00:00:03 zygote ien/system/bin/alien-main -Xzygote /opt/alien/system/bin --zygote --start-system-server 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/bin/drmserver 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/genv/bin/mysatroker_ressource_manager_server 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/bin/mediaserver 00:00:11 /opt/alien/system/genv/bin/aliensensorserver 00:00:34 /opt/alien/system/genv/bin/alien_bridge_server 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/genv/bin/alien_keyboard_server 00:00:02 /opt/alien/system/bin/rild -l libalien_native_ril.so 00:00:00 /opt/alien/system/genv/bin/mysatroker_audio_server 00:07:17 system_server 00:02:46 com.android.systemui 00:00:16 com.android.phone 00:00:04 com.myriadgroup.inputmethod.remote 00:00:02 com.myriadgroup.home 00:01:31 /usr/bin/jolla-messages -prestart 00:00:00 android.process.media 00:00:06 com.android.vending 00:00:00 com.google.android.gsf.login 00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd 00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd 00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd 00:00:00 sshd: nemo@pts/0 00:00:00 -bash 00:00:00 ps -ef 00:00:05 com.google.process.gapps 00:00:00 com.google.process.location 00:23:17 /usr/sbin/sensord -c=/etc/sensorfw/primaryuse.conf -d --log-level=warning --no-magnetometer-bg-calibration 00:00:44 sshd: nemo@notty method="post"> name="target" value="/Articles/580335/" /> name="login" value="Log in" /> to post comments ntTitle">Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 14, 2014 19:25 UTC (Tue) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (7 responses)

"Of course this is indeed a *yawn* to anyone who's principles demand that they only use a GTA04 style device"

It's a *yawn* to those of us that had N900s as well. And Sharp Zauruses before that. If it's not fully open, it's a dead end, and it will die. A good chunk of the Jolla people were involved with the N900 effort too, so they know exactly what happened to that, and there is no excuse for them taking the same attitude and approach again.

The _only_ potential selling point of the Jolla devices is their free-softwarey-ness, and they're barely better on that front than just buying a Nexus, and a whole lot worse in other ways.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 14, 2014 21:41 UTC (Tue) by dilinger (subscriber, #2867) [Link]

Exactly. This isn't just about priniciples, this is about being pragmatic. I liked the N900 UI (much moreso than android's UI). However, since it wasn't open, it has simply disappeared from my life. I find myself cursing at android's UI (well, Cyanogenmod) daily, but at least it is open. When I upgrade to my next phone, the same UI can/will await me.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 10:44 UTC (Wed) by dsommers (subscriber, #55274) [Link] (5 responses)

The jolla phone is in my experience not more closed than N900, I'd probably say more likely a bit more open. Not completely open, but still open enough to be the most open phone OS in the market today.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 10:20 UTC (Thu) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (4 responses)

It's a closed UI on top of an openish middle, on top of closed drivers, just like the N900 was. Is there any reason to believe it's not going to go exactly the same way?

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 13:39 UTC (Thu) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link] (3 responses)

What makes this different from N900/N9? Well, SailfishOS and the Jolla phones are not products from a company whose CEO would not possibly allow the success of a Linux-based system...

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 14:36 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

Didn't Elop show up after the n900/n9? What stops Jolla from having an Elopolypse?

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 15:07 UTC (Thu) by lbt (subscriber, #29672) [Link] (1 responses)

Never say never :)

OTOH the company is small enough and the vision and strategy are so opensource oriented that it's inconceivable at this point.

Also bear in mind that much of the code and tooling is derived from MeeGo and that Mer, Nemo and Qt are all fully open projects; the ability to survive Elop-style management has already been demonstrated - and that's actually a risk-management selling point.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 16:37 UTC (Thu) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link]

"the vision and strategy are so opensource oriented"

...that they're keeping important chunks of the code closed.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 14:10 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (1 responses)

Of course this is indeed a *yawn* to anyone who's principles demand that they only use a GTA04 style device - but if you want a smartphone running a modern linux then this may be for you.

By "modern linux" I guess you're referring to something other than merely what kernel version you're using, noting this because as far as I can tell the GTA04 developers are targeting current kernel versions and trying to get everything upstream.

What's closed: some kernel blobs from our suppliers, some 3rd party apps and yes, the UI layer and apps are closed at the moment (we need to exist in a harsh commercial environment and survival is a key prerequisite to any improvements in this area)

So the burning question, then, is this: how much more open does this make Jolla than Blackberry?

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 15:42 UTC (Wed) by lbt (subscriber, #29672) [Link]

yes - and I was more meaning the 'smartphone' hardware aspect. Whilst the Jolla device is not bleeding edge, it is more advanced (and more closed) hardware than the GTA04.

The modern referred to systemd, user sessions, connman, ofono - that kind of thing (and the reason for the ps -ef)

You could theoretically run the same versions of userspace code on both Jolla and GTA04; I don't know where Openmoko is with Qt though. Mer/Nemo is about to hit Qt 5.2 (it helps that Jolla hired a lot of Qt developers and is actively pushing code into Qt too.)

Blackberry uses the QNX OS - so it's not even close to being as open as SailfishOS although of course they have Qt too.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 15:49 UTC (Wed) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] (6 responses)

I really do not think you can coherently claim "complete root access" and "ability to replace the entire stack" if this is all sitting on top of binary drivers.

Nonetheless it does sound like your heart is in the right place, so I wish you the best of luck.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 16:17 UTC (Wed) by lbt (subscriber, #29672) [Link] (5 responses)

Well, no more so than on any desktop PC with an Nvidia card, a closed bios and, say, a usb ADSL modem or a wifi card with a blob.

I *think* we're a tiny bit more hackable than a PC BIOS since the really early bootloader is the open "lk".

OTOH if you're alluding to the usual kernel/blob binding then yes, you're limited to the usual annoying embedded-kernel-module-version-tie if you want those bits of hardware to work (but some is done via libhybris and is, I think, more kernel-version agnostic). Sorry. Rebuilding the kernel and/or adding modules is fine though.

Also, yes, the NSA (or in our case more likely a far-eastern govt) probably have lower level access than you (via the blobs) if that's what you meant.

(usual disclaimer that hacking this kind of thing without knowing what you're doing gets you an expensive brick)

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 15, 2014 18:11 UTC (Wed) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link]

"Well, no more so than on any desktop PC with an Nvidia card, a closed bios and, say, a usb ADSL modem or a wifi card with a blob."

Exactly.

I am not going to say that I have never purchased any of the above, but I can certainly say that I will go to some lengths to avoid them, and would certainly not describe such a system as free or open or trust it any further than my ability to audit.

"Also, yes, the NSA (or in our case more likely a far-eastern govt) probably have lower level access than you (via the blobs) if that's what you meant."

Even if it's only(!) the Chinese military that has the access today, it's almost inevitable that criminal gangs will gain access tomorrow.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 0:24 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (3 responses)

Either I misunderstand you or you're trying to blur the difference between firmware blobs and drivers, between "My USB ADSL modem needs me to have a copy of this mysterious file or else it's essentially useless" vs "My Jolla needs me to run a proprietary kernel module that exists only for specific builds, or else it's essentially useless".

The former is an annoyance, but it's fire-and-forget. I recall running some horrible perl script or something with a Windows driver CD mounted, and then it was done and the USB ADSL modem worked forever after even though I changed CPU architecture. Hobbyists put up with worse all the time.

The latter is a major obstacle, realistically without a large, dedicated engineering resource it will quickly rot and cease to exist.

Ten years or more after the makers of my (early, long pre-UVC) USB webcam went out of business AFAICT, it works fine in Fedora 19, arguably better than it ever did in Windows. Now, ten years after Jolla are bankrupt how much of a Jolla phone will work with a new Linux? My impression is that the answer is "not enough to make it a useful artefact".

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 16, 2014 12:11 UTC (Thu) by lbt (subscriber, #29672) [Link] (2 responses)

Rest assured - my intention is not to try and blur anything, apologies if I did.

I thought this was quite clear:
"yes, you're limited to the usual annoying embedded-kernel-module-version-tie"

Also note that we're not having quite the same conversation; I replied to :
"complete root access" and "ability to replace the entire stack"
but I think we need to be discussing:
"what's the long term impact of the hardware landscape in mobile today"

I suggest that the more relevant part of my reply is an nVidia card - once they stop providing support for an old card in a new kernel you're stuck.

Incidentally I was simplifying a bit: on this class of devices the GPU 'driver' is an opensource 'pass through' driver to userland but it probably exposes volatile bits of the kernel internals so it's essentially tied to a version.
Since the kernel is also the usual hacked about non-upstreamed vendor kernel which you could theoretically break into a maintainable patch set with **much** effort - realistically it's not going to happen.

Overall you're right though ... but is the answer "they're working towards our goals but they might go bankrupt, lets not bother supporting them"?

I'm not trying to answer that - but I am trying to explain why, as a free software developer, I'm excited to be making things better, not worse.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 17, 2014 0:53 UTC (Fri) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

This was very clear and useful, which is a preciously rare thing to have with an actual mainstream software vendor. Thank you for that.

It will be interesting to compare this with Blackphone.

Jolla Review: Some Rough Edges, But This Linux Smartphone Shows Promise (Forbes)

Posted Jan 22, 2014 17:38 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

I have a Nvidia chipset which I think is old enough to be unsupported by Nvidia, but since I never used Nvidia's drivers I haven't noticed any reduction in support. The free drivers do KMS, and I believe they can play 3D games, but I own supported hardware for playing 3D games on, so I didn't really try.

Probably there were dubious proprietary drivers for that webcam at some point too. Never tried them, if it doesn't work in free drivers then realistically (as you've observed) it will probably stop working soon and never work again, so why bother?

Eventually of course even the kernel developers stop caring. My first ever PC, if I still had it, wouldn't boot a modern Linux kernel. I don't ask for miracles, but it does seem as though Jolla doesn't give me most of what I'd actually care about. Thanks for your honesty, and good luck.