Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 11, 2013 22:14 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313)
In reply to: Which init system for Debian? by HelloWorld
Parent article: Which init system for Debian?

>> My opinion is completely for me to judge.

>It's none of your business what I should or shouldn't care about. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean you have to tell the world about it, and you're being a smart-arse if you do.

similarly, you can't say that "everyone needs this" or "everyone wants this" when there are people who are saying that they are happy without this.

Nobody is saying that systemd shouldn't be an option for the people who want it. The only thing that people are objecting to is being forced to switch distros to avoid using systemd when they don't want it.

and the statement from Lennart that systemd is not an init system, it is a set of "components needed to build up an operating system on top of the Linux kernel" don't make people happy who want to run a Unix OS instead of a Lennart OS. Again, they don't object to people who want to run LennartOS having that ability, they object to distros being chnaged from Unix to LennartOS while keeping the same name (if you think about this a bit, it's exactly the same objection people have to Gnome3 being so completely different than Gnome2 but keeping the same name)

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 11, 2013 23:29 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (6 responses)

The only thing that people are objecting to is being forced to switch distros to avoid using systemd when they don't want it.

Other people object to being forced to switch distros to get systemd by default when they do want it, when essentially all other distributions of note are using it by default, too – rather than having to patch it into Debian after the fact just to keep a small percentage of users on the fringe happy.

they object to distros being chnaged from Unix to LennartOS while keeping the same name

The funny thing is how, by and large, the actual Unix OSes have quietly moved over to using other init systems. This should tell us something about the continuing viability (or lack of such) of System-V init, and the sense (or nonsense) of trying to hang on to it at all costs, just for old times' sake. We have made all sorts of other sweeping changes to Linux over the years without bothering to change the name, so claiming that changing the init system suddenly makes Linux into a different operating system seems a bit contrived.

Anyway, after 30 years or so of SysV init, it makes sense to look for a replacement that is up to handling the fact that today's Linux computers, on the whole, do not look like a DEC VAX with two dozen terminals. Various such replacements have been proposed. In my opinion it makes sense for Debian to put the question of which init system should be Debian's default before the TC; we can only hope that this question will be debated on the technical merits of the proposals rather than propaganda and FUD, and that whatever decision is eventually taken will be supported by all the camps in question.

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 12, 2013 3:14 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (5 responses)

Debian already allows you to use systemd if you want.

As for other distros that don't want to offer multiple options, I would say that people who want something not in their distro are the ones who should change to a different distro rather than the ones who want things to keep working.

your positioning of people who are happy with things as they are as the 'fringe' is not conclusive to calm discussion

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 12, 2013 9:55 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (4 responses)

Debian already allows you to use systemd if you want.

Yes, and if the Debian TC decides to make systemd or Upstart the default on Linux, Debian will probably still allow you to use SysV init if you want.

I would say that people who want something not in their distro are the ones who should change to a different distro rather than the ones who want things to keep working.

I think that if Debian does decide to change its default init system there will be a huge emphasis on »keeping things working«. Systemd, for example, can deal with SysV init scripts; you just lose some of systemd's special features for those services.

your positioning of people who are happy with things as they are as the 'fringe' is not conclusive to calm discussion

The »people on the fringe« are those who believe that the mere existence of Debian on a FreeBSD or Hurd kernel entitles them to dictate policy to the project as a whole.

It's great if people are »happy with things as they are«. However, progress marches on, and Debian as a project must figure out how to deal with this. Possibly after a transition to a more modern init system, as many (or more) people will be as happy (or even happier) with things as they are then. That there are people who are happy with the current setup today should not act as an automatic barrier to well-reasoned change.

In other words, I'm sure that in the past there were lots of people who were blissfully happy with things like a.out binaries, libc5, or a static /dev directory, but even so the Debian project decided to go with ELF, glibc2, and udev, and by now there is fairly general consensus that these were reasonable decisions. It is very likely that if Debian does decide to go with systemd as the default init system on Linux even in the face of vociferous objections from those people who still like SysV init, a few years from now we will look back and consider that decision reasonable, too, in the grand scheme of things. Fondly remembering the old days when we managed to get by with simpler approaches to many things does not preclude embracing new and better solutions that are designed to deal with today's (or even tomorrow's) challenges.

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 12, 2013 10:18 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

> I think that if Debian does decide to change its default init system there will be a huge emphasis on »keeping things working«

This is one of the things I trust Debian (and Gentoo) to do well, they provide options rather than picking the 'one true way'

I would not be thrilled if Debian were to pick systemd as the default, but as long as it remained a requirement that packages work without systemd, it would only be a mild annoyance (very similar to their use of Grub while I still prefer lilo in most cases)

It would only be if they started allowing systemd-only packages as something other than a very rare case that I would have a problem with it.

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 12, 2013 10:42 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (1 responses)

I would not be thrilled if Debian were to pick systemd as the default, but as long as it remained a requirement that packages work without systemd, it would only be a mild annoyance

Personally I wouldn't want to bet the farm on this. Your best hope is that the non-Linux Debian platforms will stick with SysV init, and that some support for SysV init remains in Debian policy to cater to those.

Speaking as a Debian developer, one enticing advantage of systemd is no longer having to write SysV init scripts, so I would hope that the Debian policy requirement to do so will eventually go away, or that at the very least we will come up with a way of automatically creating SysV init scripts from systemd unit files. I seem to remember that this is being looked at, and if Debian does decide to go with systemd, I would certainly expect the vocal SysV init aficionados to contribute heavily to that effort.

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 12, 2013 13:02 UTC (Tue) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

You probably mean this:
https://github.com/akhilvij/systemd-to-sysvinit-converter
That project seems to have gone dormant about a year ago.

Which init system for Debian?

Posted Nov 20, 2013 22:53 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

The whole point of switching to systemd would be to throw away piles of ugly compatibility code to try to keep things like (the unmaintained) ConsoleKit limping along.

There's an option under consideration to keep multiple options; that'd be better than sticking with sysvinit for all eternity, but ideally I'd like to see a switch to systemd with sysvinit script compatibility as the default option, thus allowing software to depend on it.

It'll then be up to people who want to keep other init systems going to submit patches supporting them; it shouldn't be the job of every maintainer of software whose upstream relies on systemd to fork it and remove that dependency. If someone wants that, they should "fix" it upstream or fork the project themselves, rather than making Debian do it.