Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 8, 2013 16:28 UTC (Fri) by N0NB (guest, #3407)
In reply to: Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities by aseigo
Parent article: Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

With all due respect, Aaron, I am one KDE3 user that found a better solution elsewhere. I tried and tried hard to like KDE4 and I check back every couple of releases or so, but KDE has lost me (GNOME only had me for a short while until GNOME 3.2 landed in Debian) to Xfce which does exactly what I need it to do. That the KDE project apparently does not miss users like me is sort of sad but at least there is still something out there that meets my need as a simple to use desktop that doesn't get in my way.

Ultimately, Xfce may go some direction where it doesn't meet my needs and I'll be trying something else. That's life. If KDE is garnering new users because the project's offerings meet their needs, that is well and good. Likewise, it should have enough flexibility for users like me who like a lightweight desktop without things like desktop indexing (that's what locate(1) is for!) or some massive PIM database I'll never use, both of which seem mandatory (at least the last time I checked). I'm the user that wants more than just a window manager and yet much less than I seem forced to accept with KDE4 (or, whatever it's called these days). I've tried RazorQt and while it holds promise, it's not there yet for me.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 9, 2013 11:12 UTC (Sat) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (2 responses)

Neither file indexing nor KDE PIM are requirements for KDE's Plasma Desktop workspace.

KDE applications and workspace products are independent, e.g.. applications can be used on workspaces of other vendors and vice versa.

Using applications on a workspace of the same vendor might unlock additional features, but both kinds of products are fully functional without the other.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 12, 2013 10:57 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm unclear, are you saying that file indexing and PIM can be disabled once installed or that their installation is not required? These components will most likely be installed as dependencies for the kde-full package in Debian. When I used KDE I preferred to install the kde-full package to have all things KDE available. Being able to disable the operation of resource hogs even though they're installed is important to me.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 12, 2013 11:27 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

They are probably installed through some package dependency or recommendation.

File indexing might be on by default but can be turned off.

PIM applications are, well, applications and need to be started by the user or be part of a saved session (started by the user back then and saved as part of the session).

There's some PIM infrastructure services that get started on-demand, i.e. when something needs access to them. For example when a PIM application is started or when the Clock applet is configured to show calendar events.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 9, 2013 14:27 UTC (Sat) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (7 responses)

I am another, annd although I am still using the KDE4-Plasma Desktop it is with all the sematic searching crap turned off.

I took 1 look at kmail-2 and switched to to Claws.

I have just spent 18 hours rebuilding my desktop because some combination of .xxx settings caused Launcher to bus error, and I got neither useful logs, documentation or help as to how to fix this problem.

I am now considering which alternative desktop to use, which is reliable and debugable.

Another intended refugee.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 9, 2013 16:28 UTC (Sat) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link] (6 responses)

Debugging settings can be rather hopeless in complex desktops like Gnome and KDE. My advice is nuking .kde (preferable you have back-up of particular parts of .kde that you really do not want to configure again). It basically always solves such issues, and works as a nice reminder just how smooth configuring KDE is when you do it again.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 12, 2013 11:27 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link] (5 responses)

This is part of what I think is dreadfully wrong about software development in general. Careful coding should result in applications that can gracefully changes in configuration file syntax when reading the configuration left by previous versions. It seems to me that this is QA 101 and when things like this occur and the recommended "fix" is to nuke an entire configuration directory, development has failed. There is no excuse for this, IMHO.

Recommending reconfiguration of the many pieces of a complex modern desktop and then trying to sell it as a "feature" because the developers ignored QA 101 is insanity. My jaw dropped when I read, "It basically always solves such issues, and works as a nice reminder just how smooth configuring KDE is when you do it again." I'm sorry, Del, but this is not how or where we should be going! The goal should be to match the set and forget configuration nature of the majority of the packages in a Linux distribution. To offer this advice and praise it tells me that developers still have not gotten the message and are still more focused on 'Ohhh, shiny!' than on writing solid software that does not eat its own tail. This is massive fail and takes me out of the mood of trying KDE again for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps other users find these kinds of "fixes" acceptable. I do not, and software that forces that sort of "fix" on me gets replaced on my system by an alternative in short order. We can and should be doing be doing better, much better than the proprietary competition.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 12, 2013 22:27 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

To offer this advice and praise it tells me that developers still have not gotten the message and are still more focused on 'Ohhh, shiny!' than on writing solid software that does not eat its own tail. This is massive fail and takes me out of the mood of trying KDE again for the foreseeable future.

Unfotunately most users novadays find such fixes acceptable. Which means that software which “eats its own tail” wins because of positive feedback (you may despise all these 'Ohhh, shiny!' users, but the more these there are the more developers there and the more developers there the more real features you get as the result and these features then attract new users, etc).

I do not, and software that forces that sort of "fix" on me gets replaced on my system by an alternative in short order. We can and should be doing be doing better, much better than the proprietary competition.

Why. The given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow law only works if there are enough eyeballs! And your beloved “proper” software is maintained by smaller and smaller number of people.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 13, 2013 21:36 UTC (Wed) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link] (3 responses)

I was actually planning on letting your comment pass, simply because I saw no polite way of answering. However, I am tired of seeing the likes of you getting away with it.

I offered a user who gave me absolutely no hints help. The tip is highly effective, and is more or less the standard approach on any capable desktop when users or admins fuck it up without a clue to how. It has nothing to do with kde.

I took the opportunity to share that configuring kde is a breeze these days, a nice opportunity for you to place a strawman and behave like a jerk. I hope it made you feel good.

There may be some failed development, but if so you are nowhere near demonstrating it. The only thing you have demonstrated so far is your own disability to behave. Now get this into your head, *any* linux desktop can be messed up beyond any repair, if you don't like it then there is always locked down devices for you.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 14, 2013 12:05 UTC (Thu) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (1 responses)

>I was actually planning on letting your comment pass, simply because I saw no polite way of answering. However, I am tired of seeing the likes of you getting away with it.

I think your response is the one that's in the wrong here. The GP's post was polite and accurate, and I can't see anything in it that could seriously be considered controversial.

Your behaviour in this thread however has been arrogant and condescending, filled with personal attacks, with nearly every post being offensive.

I realise it can hurt when somebody points out that the emperor has no clothes, but that doesn't make it right to attack them in response.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 14, 2013 16:48 UTC (Thu) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link]

> The GP's post was polite and accurate

We have very different views on what is polite and accurate. For instance, I find putting a series of strawmen quite impolite and inaccurate.

> Your behaviour in this thread however has been arrogant and condescending, filled with personal attacks

I am sorry if you have read it that way. As far as I have seen I had one misplaced comment on brains, which I have duly excused for and tried to explain what I meant. KDE is feature rich, that is a fact. When I say that XFCE may be the right thing for you, I really mean it. Some people enjoy abundance of features, some people enjoy a mean and lean experience. There is nothing wrong with either, and I am very sorry if you somehow interpreted me to be arrogant and condescending because of that. Other than that I have no clue what you are talking about.

Emblemically the Wrong Answer

Posted Nov 23, 2013 12:36 UTC (Sat) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link]

Del- just gave the wrong answer AGAIN, at least you should get a component name, PC and FP and stack if possible. We want to find and fix the bug, not keep hitting it.

The lack of time, care and professionalism, and the poor documentation are matched only by arrogant Oh ah over tertiary issues.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 9, 2013 16:30 UTC (Sat) by Del- (guest, #72641) [Link] (4 responses)

If you are happy with XFCE and do not enjoy any of the abundant additional features or configurations available in KDE, then KDE is not for you. I wish you happy computing with XFCE, it is an excellent piece of software.

Seigo: on introducing new ideas to free software communities

Posted Nov 12, 2013 11:42 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

Nothing like damning with faint praise, eh?

That myself and some other users are content with Xfce and don't miss "any of the abundant additional features or configurations available in KDE" should say something. That "something" can be argued as a failure of the users to understand the vision of the KDE developers or as a failure of the KDE developers to understand the needs of a certain segment of its former user base. Personally, I have played with many of the advanced features of various desktops over the years and have found them wanting when it comes to getting my daily tasks done. I now find Xfce a nice mix of desktop functionality and simplicity for getting my work done.

Not the issue ... At all

Posted Nov 15, 2013 20:01 UTC (Fri) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (2 responses)

Gnome is now beyond the pale, KDE used to be good, but it has suffered years of arrogant, bone headed developer rot.
First if I wanted software that rotted on the vine, I would have chosen the Original - Windows,

sencond the same with egregious change to fullow sone developers sense of taste.

The problem is that hwen things go wrong, there is no way of telling what broke, and restoring a 'back to virgin .kde dump' often does not work and there is no way top debug anything. The documentation is out of date, incomplete and facile, and also disgustingly full of puff.

Not the issue ... At all

Posted Nov 15, 2013 20:25 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

You seem…angry about something. Care to be more specific or are you just ranting? Personally, I've found the docs for KDE to at *least* be par for the course (it is usually lacking at app-level docs, but the API docs are *far* better than the GTK stack's API docs). As for debugging .kde problems, I used git to track changes I cared about. Without it, I'd start poking the rc files which seem related to the bug (yeah, both are "advanced" user techniques…but you're not without options).

Not the issue ... At all

Posted Nov 15, 2013 23:58 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

So, you're complaining that KDE has 'rotted on the vine' (i.e. that it hasn't been developed) *and* that it's suffered from 'egregious change'? At the same time?

I'm not sure you can have both of those at once. Pick one. Is it moving too fast or too slowly? :)