Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:25 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
In reply to: Intel and XMir by Cyberax
Parent article: Intel and XMir

Because systemd is inferior to Upstart. Fedora users suffer for it.

Wayland is another inferior solution.

If you thought that only your claim is right, then explain again what is free software.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:30 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

Nope. SystemD is technically superior (just look at unit files vs. upstart init files) and has more features. Decision to create SystemD was technical-driven.

Mir is inferior to Wayland (still), though it's quickly gaining new functionality.

And what's worse, the decision to start Mir was purely political. There are absolutely no technical reasons for Ubuntu _not_ to use Wayland.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:46 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482) [Link] (7 responses)

> Nope. SystemD is technically superior (just look at unit files vs. upstart init files) and has more features. Decision to create SystemD was technical-driven.
> Mir is inferior to Wayland (still), though it's quickly gaining new functionality.

Having more features doesn't mean superior.
Otherwise I may able to claim that KDE is superior to GNOME.

Moreover, I once noticed that yum/zypper is probably superior to APT. Should we give up APT and switch, then?

> And what's worse, the decision to start Mir was purely political. There are absolutely no technical reasons for Ubuntu _not_ to use Wayland.

Probably true. But given the obvious hostility showed by Intel this time, I find that political concerns, if any, are justified.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:50 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

> Having more features doesn't mean superior.
It is, if those features make common tasks less complicated.

> Moreover, I once noticed that yum/zypper is probably superior to APT. Should we give up APT and switch, then?
It's definitely not completely superior. And once something better comes and the switch is not too complicated, then yes we should switch.

> Probably true. But given the obvious hostility showed by Intel this time, I find that political concerns, if any, are justified.
Intel's hostility is mostly reaction to Ubuntu's.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 22:04 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482) [Link] (5 responses)

> It is, if those features make common tasks less complicated.

So, how do you measure complexity?

> Intel's hostility is mostly reaction to Ubuntu's.

If not picking some free software is hostility, then free software is a misnomer of fascist software.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 22:52 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

>So, how do you measure complexity?
Lines of code to implement certain functionality and chances to make a mistake.

> If not picking some free software is hostility, then free software is a misnomer of fascist software.
Creating a technically pointless local fork is hostility and one of the major reasons for fragmentation.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:20 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482) [Link] (3 responses)

> Lines of code to implement certain functionality and chances to make a mistake.

Oh, then it is even better to use Windows Server, where it generally requires 0 line of code to do things have 0 chance of making a mistake.

> Creating a technically pointless local fork is hostility and one of the major reasons for fragmentation.

I find that it is quite meaningful, after encountering so many hostile, fascist people like you.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:23 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

For servers? Nope, Windows Server requires quite a bit of configuration (just look at service installation). So my comparison holds.

SystemD _is_ easier to use than Upstart, especially with its JournalD integration.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:33 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482) [Link] (1 responses)

> For servers? Nope, Windows Server requires quite a bit of configuration (just look at service installation). So my comparison holds.

Yes, you are always 100% correct.

> SystemD _is_ easier to use than Upstart, especially with its JournalD integration.

A straight search of "JournalD" gives me this: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=168524
Something works for you doesn't necessarily works for other people (especially true in Linux eco-system as software configurations are way too many)

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:41 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> A straight search of "JournalD" gives me this: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=168524
Something works for you doesn't necessarily works for other people (especially true in Linux eco-system as software configurations are way too many)

You do realize that that link actually contradicts your assertion? The actual problem is another piece of software (ie nepomuk) either had corrupted data files or said files weren't compatible from one version to the next, and was continually (and rapidly) crashing and restarting itself. Journald, being the system logger, did its job and logged each and every occurance.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:04 UTC (Thu) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link] (2 responses)

Your arguments against Mir sound like they could have equally been leveled against systemd when it was started: that its changes could have been integrated into Upstart (that most major distros were either using at the time or evaluating).

Instead, they continued work as a new project and ended up with a product that you apparently like a lot.

Is it really that difficult to give Mir the same courtesy, and accept that its reasons for existence might not just be political?

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:13 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

No. Systemd from the very beginning had features that would have required complete re-architecting of upstart. And it had been considered at that time, btw.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:36 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

" Is it really that difficult to give Mir the same courtesy, and accept that its reasons for existence might not just be political?"

That comparison weakens your plea

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html explains why systemd was started and has the technical details of how the architecture is different and really the inverse of upstart and they still talked to upstart developers before developing an alternative.

If there are similar technical reasons for Mir or if Mir developers talked to Wayland and tried collaborating, feel free to provide pointers.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:32 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (4 responses)

As drag put it already:
> juxtaposing words around in a juvenile manner isn't a way you win a arguments or convince people of your position.
So please just stfu.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:37 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482) [Link] (3 responses)

As drag put it already:
> juxtaposing words around in a juvenile manner isn't a way you win a arguments or convince people of your position.

Yes, only Fedora fascist can call Ubuntu inferior, not other way around.
Yes, only systemd fascist can call Upstart inferior, not other way around.
Yes, only Wayland fascist can call Mir inferior, not other way around.

> So please just stfu.

Obvious troll obvious.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 14, 2013 23:29 UTC (Sat) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

The real, important question is: does this post count for 3, or is there a maximum of 1 Godwin point you can get per post?

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 15, 2013 17:14 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I always thought Godwin posts implicated the all sub-threads and, to some extent, its parents (and more specifically, the user). The question I would like to know: what percentage of Godwin sub-threads get back on track[1]? Is it permanently tainted or is there some hope?

[1]This is a meta-discussion, so it probably doesn't count here.

Intel and XMir

Posted Sep 16, 2013 22:24 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Please stop that, I just laughed so loud I woke up my neighbour. :)