Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Posted Sep 12, 2013 20:59 UTC (Thu) by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)In reply to: Intel and XMir by robclark
Parent article: Intel and XMir
The problem is that, well, even if RH doesn't have consensus internally, as you mentioned, an external entity, e.g., Canonical, would be bashed by many people if they do not follow the direction of systemd and/or gnome-shell.
As a matter of fact, Lennart explicitly called Canonical to adopt systemd on Google+. If it is even OK within RH to dislike systemd, what's wrong with Canonical if they decide to keep UpStart around for some time?
> no, that doesn't actually follow
Yes, it doesn't follow in strict logical sense. However, after observing numerous breakage caused by GTK+ and so on, after some very bad experience about PyGTK, I'd conclude that the "open source atomsphere" does contribute to the loose API/ABI stability we are experiencing today.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:15 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (18 responses)
XMir is another inferior solution.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:25 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (17 responses)
Wayland is another inferior solution.
If you thought that only your claim is right, then explain again what is free software.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:30 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (11 responses)
Mir is inferior to Wayland (still), though it's quickly gaining new functionality.
And what's worse, the decision to start Mir was purely political. There are absolutely no technical reasons for Ubuntu _not_ to use Wayland.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:46 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (7 responses)
Having more features doesn't mean superior.
Moreover, I once noticed that yum/zypper is probably superior to APT. Should we give up APT and switch, then?
> And what's worse, the decision to start Mir was purely political. There are absolutely no technical reasons for Ubuntu _not_ to use Wayland.
Probably true. But given the obvious hostility showed by Intel this time, I find that political concerns, if any, are justified.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:50 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
> Moreover, I once noticed that yum/zypper is probably superior to APT. Should we give up APT and switch, then?
> Probably true. But given the obvious hostility showed by Intel this time, I find that political concerns, if any, are justified.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 22:04 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (5 responses)
So, how do you measure complexity?
> Intel's hostility is mostly reaction to Ubuntu's.
If not picking some free software is hostility, then free software is a misnomer of fascist software.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 22:52 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
> If not picking some free software is hostility, then free software is a misnomer of fascist software.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:20 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (3 responses)
Oh, then it is even better to use Windows Server, where it generally requires 0 line of code to do things have 0 chance of making a mistake.
> Creating a technically pointless local fork is hostility and one of the major reasons for fragmentation.
I find that it is quite meaningful, after encountering so many hostile, fascist people like you.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:23 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
SystemD _is_ easier to use than Upstart, especially with its JournalD integration.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:33 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (1 responses)
Yes, you are always 100% correct.
> SystemD _is_ easier to use than Upstart, especially with its JournalD integration.
A straight search of "JournalD" gives me this: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=168524
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:41 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
You do realize that that link actually contradicts your assertion? The actual problem is another piece of software (ie nepomuk) either had corrupted data files or said files weren't compatible from one version to the next, and was continually (and rapidly) crashing and restarting itself. Journald, being the system logger, did its job and logged each and every occurance.
Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:04 UTC (Thu)
by jamesh (guest, #1159)
[Link] (2 responses)
Instead, they continued work as a new project and ended up with a product that you apparently like a lot.
Is it really that difficult to give Mir the same courtesy, and accept that its reasons for existence might not just be political?
Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:13 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:36 UTC (Thu)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
That comparison weakens your plea
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html explains why systemd was started and has the technical details of how the architecture is different and really the inverse of upstart and they still talked to upstart developers before developing an alternative.
If there are similar technical reasons for Mir or if Mir developers talked to Wayland and tried collaborating, feel free to provide pointers.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:32 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:37 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yes, only Fedora fascist can call Ubuntu inferior, not other way around.
> So please just stfu.
Obvious troll obvious.
Posted Sep 14, 2013 23:29 UTC (Sat)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 15, 2013 17:14 UTC (Sun)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
[1]This is a meta-discussion, so it probably doesn't count here.
Posted Sep 16, 2013 22:24 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 12, 2013 21:34 UTC (Thu)
by robclark (subscriber, #74945)
[Link] (2 responses)
> The problem is that, well, even if RH doesn't have consensus internally, as you mentioned, an external entity, e.g., Canonical, would be bashed by many people if they do not follow the direction of systemd and/or gnome-shell.
well, I'd phrase it a different way, ie. that RH gives a lot of freedom to employees that work on upstream projects (and really, that RH employs a lot of people who are very passionate about open source and upstream). I guess when you have a lot of people with passion and strong opinions (in and outside of RH), there may be some bashing. Don't take it too seriously.
> As a matter of fact, Lennart explicitly called Canonical to adopt systemd on Google+. If it is even OK within RH to dislike systemd, what's wrong with Canonical if they decide to keep UpStart around for some time?
I don't see any particular big problem if canonical keeps upstart.
But otoh, upstart doesn't really have a big impact on graphics stack and toolkits, so it is an area that doesn't cause as much fragmentation of effort for the linux desktop and graphics drivers. Maybe I take this more seriously because I'm a graphics driver developer... but graphics drivers are an area where we are seriously outnumbered by our closed source counterparts, and seriously understaffed. So needless fragmentation in this area is a bad thing.
>> no, that doesn't actually follow
>Yes, it doesn't follow in strict logical sense. However, after observing numerous breakage caused by GTK+ and so on, after some very bad experience about PyGTK, I'd conclude that the "open source atomsphere" does contribute to the loose API/ABI stability we are experiencing today.
Hmm, maybe a matter of bad experience with a particular project. I would say that the linux kernel has an "open source atmosphere" and it has some of the most rigorous ABI stability requirements (when it comes to userspace/kernel ABI). And likewise, the client<->xserver protocol ABI is very rigorously maintained. And the wayland crew is taking the same approach with wayland protocol.
Posted Sep 12, 2013 23:04 UTC (Thu)
by maxiaojun (guest, #91482)
[Link] (1 responses)
Yes, indeed.
> So needless fragmentation in this area is a bad thing.
This is unrelated. Fragmentation gonna happen when there is conflict interest. And people have right to have conflict interest.
> Hmm, maybe a matter of bad experience with a particular project. I would say that the linux kernel has an "open source atmosphere" and it has some of the most rigorous ABI stability requirements (when it comes to userspace/kernel ABI). And likewise, the client<->xserver protocol ABI is very rigorously maintained. And the wayland crew is taking the same approach with wayland protocol.
Without GTK+ and so, many interesting stuff won't build.
Posted Sep 13, 2013 0:10 UTC (Fri)
by robclark (subscriber, #74945)
[Link]
> This is unrelated. Fragmentation gonna happen when there is conflict interest. And people have right to have conflict interest.
yeah, perhaps I put it badly.. one aspect of open source / free software is the freedom to take it and try something different.
But, when that something different is something that touches many different projects which make up the (in this case, graphics) stack, you have no right to demand that those various upstream projects shoulder the burden of maintaining your changes.
And fwiw, I'd have the same negative opinion if, for example, some distro wanted to fork a different core piece of the linux ecosystem, like the kernel (cough, cough, android.. although at least in the android case there are some vaguely valid technical reasons)
>> Hmm, maybe a matter of bad experience with a particular project. I would say that the linux kernel has an "open source atmosphere" and it has some of the most rigorous ABI stability requirements (when it comes to userspace/kernel ABI). And likewise, the client<->xserver protocol ABI is very rigorously maintained. And the wayland crew is taking the same approach with wayland protocol.
> Without GTK+ and so, many interesting stuff won't build.
Ok, I guess I am missing the point you are trying to make here. But I'm not really getting the connection between "open source atmosphere" meaning that projects must have no respect for ABI compatibility (or really what has to do with this topic at all). Maybe certain projects have a problem, I'm not really involved w/ gtk+ so I don't really know the details in this particular case.
Posted Sep 13, 2013 0:25 UTC (Fri)
by daniels (subscriber, #16193)
[Link] (13 responses)
That's two years longer than the period between the initial release of Windows XP, and the release of its last service pack.
Posted Sep 16, 2013 9:23 UTC (Mon)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (9 responses)
Windows, on the other hand, still supports the same ABI and API since Windows 95. That's 18 years, and still counting.
Posted Sep 16, 2013 16:53 UTC (Mon)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2013 7:09 UTC (Tue)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2013 10:26 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link]
i also have some very old binaries on some of my Linux systems that are still working today. Some of those are graphical apps that were written for motif (although admittedly, most are command line apps)
The fact that you are having problems with GTK+ 1.2 apps has more to say about the GTK developers than Linux overall.
You will not find me defending the backwards compatibility of Desktop Environment developers, and the fact that Gnome2 and Gnome3 could not both be insalled on the same system is a perfect example of the problem (and far from the only one, it's not limited to Gnome)
Posted Sep 17, 2013 12:09 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (4 responses)
That said, I know Fedora (and presumably others) stopped shipping GTK-1.2 libraries by default several years ago because there's nothing in the standard install sets that uses GTK-1.2 any more. It's still available via yum for those that want/need it.
So, I'm genuinely curious as to what you are trying to run/build, and if you checked that the libraries/headers are indeed installed, and if that build error is indeed due to GTK.
And on a tangental note, I've found that Linux (via Wine) often provides better backwards compatibility for older/ancient Windows software than modern Windows does, especially for stuff written during the years of massive DirectX API churn.
Posted Sep 17, 2013 13:16 UTC (Tue)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (3 responses)
My own tools I wrote back in the day, while learning GTK+. GTK+ 1.x has not been available in Ubuntu for a long time (don't know about others), so no headers and no libraries here. Unless I compile my own, something I'm was not very inclined to do.
Posted Sep 17, 2013 13:35 UTC (Tue)
by peter-b (subscriber, #66996)
[Link]
Posted Sep 17, 2013 15:02 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 1, 2013 12:38 UTC (Tue)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Posted Sep 19, 2013 17:33 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Sep 19, 2013 5:24 UTC (Thu)
by freetard (guest, #92836)
[Link] (2 responses)
Try compile http://i8086emu.sourceforge.net/ on any recent distribution. RHEL family doesn't count.
Posted Sep 19, 2013 7:00 UTC (Thu)
by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501)
[Link]
System: Debian Stable (7.0).
Posted Sep 19, 2013 11:39 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Fedora 19 is about as recent as it gets, BTW.
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
> Mir is inferior to Wayland (still), though it's quickly gaining new functionality.
Otherwise I may able to claim that KDE is superior to GNOME.
Intel and XMir
It is, if those features make common tasks less complicated.
It's definitely not completely superior. And once something better comes and the switch is not too complicated, then yes we should switch.
Intel's hostility is mostly reaction to Ubuntu's.
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Lines of code to implement certain functionality and chances to make a mistake.
Creating a technically pointless local fork is hostility and one of the major reasons for fragmentation.
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Something works for you doesn't necessarily works for other people (especially true in Linux eco-system as software configurations are way too many)
Intel and XMir
Something works for you doesn't necessarily works for other people (especially true in Linux eco-system as software configurations are way too many)
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
Intel and XMir
> juxtaposing words around in a juvenile manner isn't a way you win a arguments or convince people of your position.
So please just stfu.
Intel and XMir
> juxtaposing words around in a juvenile manner isn't a way you win a arguments or convince people of your position.
Yes, only systemd fascist can call Upstart inferior, not other way around.
Yes, only Wayland fascist can call Mir inferior, not other way around.
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Wol
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