Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian) [LWN.net]

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 13:49 UTC (Thu) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link] (2 responses)

The line about "no network effect" above seems markedly different from previous rhetoric; for example Ubuntu: One OS, one interface, all devices.

Now, I may be coming from a slightly biased viewpoint, but I like the "we can all interoperate" vision much better.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 8:58 UTC (Fri) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] (1 responses)

Mark seems to be learning from Ballmer.

> They all interoperate
...and use the same apps (which is the other half of the riddle), yup!

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 23:13 UTC (Fri) by richo123 (guest, #24309) [Link]

You mean the guy who just today very very belatedly walked the plank?

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 15:01 UTC (Thu) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (32 responses)

I maybe trolling here. I sincerely wish this project to die. Even the mightiest of the evils like Microsoft is struggling against Android. There is absolutely no space for canonical or for that matter man-power/money to sustain the "Edge" project.

Canonical could focus on things that they could do better than others. If they wanted to have mobile space they could at least forked Android for convenience.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 15:16 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (24 responses)

I want an open alternative to Android. Android is not really open and it certainly lacks a UNIX-like userspace.

I still run my trusty Nokia N900 with real Linux on it, and I would love to be able to get up-to-date phone hardware with a real Linux kernel and UNIX-like userspace. Even if the phone has its own UI layer and phone APIs, being able to drop down to the low-level UNIX API is incredibly powerful.

Low end innovation

Posted Aug 22, 2013 16:17 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (4 responses)

Unfortunately, any future alternatives to Android are more likely to come from the low end, as seen in The Innovator's Dilemma. (You know, some day I have to read the whole book.) This may make it more difficult that terminals carry e.g. the GNU userspace tools. OK, nowadays even low-end models have two cores and a lot of RAM, but these tools would take up valuable storage space. After all, a basic Debian console instalation these days takes about 600 MB of hard disk, which is a lot.

For instance, does Firefox OS have the Unix userspace? I fear it doesn't, although it should not be hard to add should the terminal have the space.

Low end innovation

Posted Aug 22, 2013 18:25 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

> After all, a basic Debian console instalation these days takes about 600 MB of hard disk, which is a lot.

No it's not really. A single movie I copy to my phone can often be that big or bigger, depending on how much effort I feel like putting into compressing it.

Low end innovation

Posted Aug 22, 2013 21:41 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

hmm, my server builds of Debian are about half that size (~300MB of disk), and while they are stripped down, there's definitely room to strip significantly more out of them.

Low end innovation

Posted Aug 22, 2013 18:34 UTC (Thu) by luya (subscriber, #50741) [Link] (1 responses)

Firefox OS has a Unix-like userspace under Gonk.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox_...
https://wiki.mozilla.org/B2G/Architecture

Low end innovation

Posted Aug 22, 2013 22:57 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

The FirefoxOS userspace is based on Android, but considerably more minimal --- no JVM, no Java frameworks, lots of libraries removed. There's no hope of getting traditional "Linux desktop" apps running on it.

We agree with man_ls that a successful competitor is likely to come from the low end, which is why we've targeted FirefoxOS there. In that market having "real Linux" on the device is an unacceptable burden.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 16:19 UTC (Thu) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (8 responses)

Google apps are not open and I agree. But apart from that what else is stopping you not have the unix experience. Please don't expect your mobile phone to boot into a bash shell. That's the last thing anyone would want in a phone at least.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 17:32 UTC (Thu) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link] (3 responses)

> Please don't expect your mobile phone to boot into a bash shell. That's the last thing anyone would want in a phone at least

How can you say that on a site frequented by hard-core Linux developers?

I would MUCH rather have a phone that boots into a bash shell than one that is dependent on Google apps. There would be nothing terrible about typing the equivalent of 'startx' to bring up a frontend on each true power-on; not like I'd need to do that before every call, since normal "off" is just suspend.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 17:54 UTC (Thu) by hadrons123 (guest, #72126) [Link] (2 responses)

That's probably one of the reasons that Linux phones never really was useful to masses until Android came over.

I personally don't favor Google or Canonical but having an alternative like Tizen or Firefox OS is preferable than the clunky unity running on my phone.

Firefox OS definitely have a different idea compared to the other alternatives. Canonical should be trying something like that rather than trying to bring the unity bloat into phone.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 18:09 UTC (Thu) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

> That's probably one of the reasons that Linux phones never really was useful to masses until Android came over.

Wrong, it was a quirk of business circumstances holding them back. WebOS would have become beloved by the masses if it had Google's power behind it... instead of the dying Palm then the struggling HP. WebOS phones were built on top of normal embedded Linux, i.e. OpenEmbedded, but the "masses" never would have known or cared because it has a very friendly UI.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 21:13 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link]

whatever happened to tizen? samsung seems to have one phone apparently coming "soon" with tizen, but everything else i hear is that it is actually dead. including intel seems to be the kiss of death for these projects.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 17:36 UTC (Thu) by hirnbrot (guest, #89469) [Link]

Well, what is the unix experience?

Is the unix experience booting into sh, compiling stuff, setting runlevels and chmod'ing the crap out of everything?

Yes, that's not really applicable to phones. Touch keyboards are just too clunky and multi-user support isn't really necessary on a device that's pretty much used by one person.

If we move away from the original unix on to linux (or BSD, I don't really know), however, we'll see some things that the current phones very much do _not_ offer.

A sane upgrading experience for the entire system, for example - Android fucks this up badly, giving the vendor too much control.

A customizable system where the user is free to replace or remove parts - again, Android as it is delivered on phones doesn't do this, giving vendors too much control.

I too owned an N900, and the way you could actually upgrade your system with an "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" was magical for as long as it lasted.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 19:25 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (1 responses)

Please don't expect your mobile phone to boot into a bash shell. That's the last thing anyone would want in a phone at least.

I don't expect my mobile phone to boot into a bash shell, but I certainly expect to be able to open a bash shell whenever I want. I do this on my N900, in fact. I ported my Remind tool to my phone just because I could, and I routinely run it in a terminal.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 15:14 UTC (Fri) by wookey (guest, #5501) [Link]

Quite. The N900 is great as it has a well-developed phone UI but you can just run plain bash too if you like, or ssh in, and install debs. I can't see myself buying another phone until I get something similar. Ubuntu's efforts seems most likely to produce something along those lines, that I'd really like, but I could live with any of the other 3 if I had to. I can't get very excited about varying UI's. It's the back-end tech like the deb-based tools ecosystem for crossbuilding that gets me excited and causes me to choose platforms.

It does help if a platform achieves wider success as then you get 'apps' too, but that's just icing. The n900 is still great for my purposes, despite a very small (strangled at birth) ecosystem.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 14:30 UTC (Fri) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

> That's the last thing anyone would want in a phone at least.

"Anyone" -- that's drawing from a large group of people. :)

I would like a phone with a markup-based UI -- and a "phone library" with a nice API -- so that I can add and subtract functionality (especially the later), and change things around as I please. It could be HTML5/Javascript, but it wouldn't have to be.

Devices with touch screen-based UIs are just begging to be reprogrammed...

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 18:17 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (7 responses)

You can have a Unix userland right now with chroot (you have rooted your device, right?)

I am typing this on an Android tablet (Galaxy Note 8) in Firefox running in a Linux chroot (a mix of Debian and Ubuntu). I also have Firefox, and other stuff, installed in Android directly. When I want to type/work in a familiar environment, I use the chroot, when I just want to read, I use the Android software (the chroot doesn't have smooth scrolling etc and is a pain to use without the bluetooth keyboard).

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 21:10 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (1 responses)

would love to see a blog post detailing how you did all this. i'm running only nexus devices so i am not in as bad a position as some android users, but still envious of your setup

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 4:48 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

I wrote it up for my older Android tablet, using Gentoo, here. I later switched to Debian, but some packages (like Firefox) are from Ubuntu. Any basic armhf image should work for the chroot.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 2:23 UTC (Fri) by busterb (subscriber, #560) [Link] (4 responses)

I ran an Ubuntu chroot on a G1 (the first Android phone). It was novel for about 5 minutes.

I have since upgraded phones a few times, and usually run Cyanogenmod (which includes a terminal emulator app), but I never really have found a good use for such an awkward keyboard/screen terminal experience.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 4:51 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Indeed, it makes little sense on a phone, unless you use an external HDMI monitor and bluetooth keyboard/mouse. Which seems to be Shuttleworth's vision. But I'm not even convinced of that: someone who wants to work on the go would prefer a lightweight and inexpensive laptop dock (the combo has to be cheaper and more convenient than separate phone+laptop), rather than hunt for monitors. The convergence that works for me is tablet-laptop: my Note 8 is effectively my laptop now.

I use a local shell even less than I make phone calls

Posted Aug 23, 2013 10:01 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

Likewise, I have a terminal app on my Nexus 4 and Nexus 7, and I had one on the previous (CyanogenMod'd) phone I owned too. But I rarely use this feature, even less than I use the ability to make telephone calls.

I'd guess a use a SSH terminal (which has more in common with running Putty on a Windows PC than with local terminal access) about once per week, often for trivial things like checking whether a job ran on a PC at home when I'm out with friends but occasionally to do something more substantial when it just can't wait. But the local terminal window? I just checked, it says I haven't used it for _six months_ on the phone.

If you're worried about Android be worried about vendors who don't want to release working source, about attempts to lock the bootloader so that you can't fix bugs even if you DO have the source, and about binary blobs that run on the CPU, like userspace GPU drivers accessing a Swiss cheese kernel "driver" that basically lets them run wild. Those are worthy worries, with real implications for _users_ as well as developers. Running a Bourne Again Shell on inappropriate devices‡ is a fetish, a distraction at best from what we're really all about.

‡ Yes, I wrote an EN-GB keyboard map for Android, but I didn't write it thinking "Man, I am never going to leave home without a full-size UK keyboard again" but more like "If you've got a real hardware keyboard right there it's kind of stupid if half the keys do the wrong thing".

I use a local shell even less than I make phone calls

Posted Aug 23, 2013 10:05 UTC (Fri) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link] (1 responses)

I think it's pretty clear that "running bash" includes more than just the ability to have a shell. It's about being able to a) run arbitrary software if you think it's a good idea b) get some measure of low level access to the system.
Musing about the actual importance of a shell on a phone seems to miss the point.

I use a local shell even less than I make phone calls

Posted Aug 23, 2013 13:21 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Running arbitrary software is something you get everywhere except Apple's walled garden. Even the feature phones run arbitrary software, it's just that the limits of what the phone can do are pretty abrupt. Every feature phone I've seen can run the Java MIDP mOTP software we use as a second factor for authorising people despite probably not one of their vendors specifically envisioned or tested that use.

The measure of low level access comes down to: it runs Linux. If you choose a phone from a good vendor, you will get kernel source that you can hack, and (if you're the sort of person who'd have been able to get Linux working twenty years ago on their PS/2) install that new kernel on your phone, hopefully not bricking it in the process.

The secrecy is a related but separate issue. Linux can send arbitrary bytes to the mysterious command ring buffer on the GPU. But unless you know what those bytes do you likely can't get a picture without running the binary blob. If you want to be able to fix bugs in the 3D drivers then "I want to run bash" is a funny way of saying it.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 19:08 UTC (Thu) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

The real open android alternative is called replicant. Ubuntu et all use android kernel and its closed source drivers, while projects like replicant, freeadreno, limare and so on work on actually making the ecosystem more free.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 2:48 UTC (Fri) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

Hopefully Sailfish (Jolla) will provide this; it is, after all, more or less the continuation of the N900/N9 legacy.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 18:23 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (1 responses)

Microsoft is mighty on one platform because they control the OS and some key software (Office), and because there is an ecosystem of software on that platform built on their OS. But it doesn't work on ARM. If the Surface Pro had been competitively priced and had decent battery life it would have been a runaway hit. But it wasn't and the ARM-based Surface did not run the software people wanted; iPad and Android tablets did. It's that simple.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 12:46 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (guest, #31018) [Link]

Windows requires bigger CPU/RAM/Flash, so device will inevitably be more expensive for no real value added unless you're a MS Office fan. In a space where margins are much thinner than in the PC world, this is bound to fail. This is also what Intel is discovering at big costs. Let's see which one gives up first!

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 21:53 UTC (Thu) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (3 responses)

I'd hate to be a troll as well, but I'm wasn't much interested either. Not because I think Android is the end-all-be-all. Android sucks because I have very little use for much other than the "phone" part. I never really jumped on the smart phone bandwagon and was a late adopter. I have an Android phone, but am not in love with it. I use it pretty much the same way I used my "dumb" phone: to make phone calls and send text messages. I do enjoy the web browser, maps, and calculator, and, occasionally, the camera and couldn't see myself without those things now, but as far as the other apps, games, and utilities, I'm not at all interested. They're mostly either closed source, uninteresting, gimmicky, or some combination thereof. There's only so many live wallpapers you can look at before they all start looking the same.

When I heard about Edge, It seemed interesting for about 4 minutes, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed like too much phone and too little PC. I would not take advantage of all the smart phone features and I'd frustrated trying to use it as a PC.

Did anyone else think this?

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 25, 2013 16:52 UTC (Sun) by klbrun (subscriber, #45083) [Link] (2 responses)

I've noticed more normal people (non-engineers) using tablets instead of notebook PCs in Starbucks, etc. These are probably wi-fi only, thus no service provider to interfere with upgrades, etc. These are also the reason PC sales are dropping. I think Google is vulnerable in the wi-fi only tablet space, because they don't have the service provider's protection of the device. That is, a competitor who focusses on this space can come up with a superior open product (and then get bought by Google).

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 25, 2013 21:32 UTC (Sun) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

but are these people in starbucks sending e-mails on their tablets? or are they only reading/watching stuff?

and do these people have a tablet _instead_ of a notebook computer, or in addition to a notebook computer?

personally, I think the drop in PC sales is that the machines from a few years ago are still usable, so people have less need to replace them, not that they are replacing them with mobile devices.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 26, 2013 15:50 UTC (Mon) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

It does happen, my spouse does the vast majority of all their computing on their mobile device and rarely if ever uses a laptop. Among their peer group they are not the only one who computes this way, so it is demonstrated as viable as far as I am concerned and I believe it will be a significant part of the computing future.

I can believe that Edge-style devices could be a possible future, if someone builds and markets one that works well.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 9:56 UTC (Fri) by mzanetti (guest, #92505) [Link]

And because Microsoft doesn't do well you actually hope everyone else dies?

Doesn't make much sense to me...

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 21:07 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link] (1 responses)

better this project die now than die in the market...and it would have absolutely died in the market.

the specs for the Edge aren't noteworthy today...and it would be even more uncompetitive in 2015 when it would have launched. it would have been sad to watch shuttleworth try to defend and promote a 2012 phone in 2015.

i like shuttleworth's software vision but i don't understand why he needs to have a hw channel. just support installation on prominent android phones.

ubuntu has lost time and energy on this diversion into hw. shuttleworth needs to make ubuntu on the phone viable by the end of 2014 or the ship will have sailed and his os will just be remembered as the BeOS of mobile.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 13:07 UTC (Fri) by Otus (subscriber, #67685) [Link]

> better this project die now than die in the market...and it would have
> absolutely died in the market.

It was never meant for the market. All the phones they meant to produce were "preorder" through the campaign and would have already been sold.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 22, 2013 22:41 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm sort of confused.

Silber is quoted in cnet saying:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57599754-94/canonical-ce...
"I think the full Ubuntu convergence experience will not be in the first round of Ubuntu phones, which we're targeting for the first quarter 2014,"

But Shuttleworth is quoted in this article as saying:
"We have 12 carriers who say they want Ubuntu."
"they haven't said that they will ship Ubuntu phones, no."

How do you seriously make an estimate that Uphones are going to be available in early 2014 when none of the carriers have committed to shipping a Uphone yet?

I know the CAG is new and all...but it really seems to me that Canonical's exec team are putting words in the mouth of CAG members. I've yet to see anybody for the CAG make a statement on the record about intent or desire to field a Uphone on their network. Everything being generated concerning OEM and carrier interest is coming directly out of Canonical bull horns..either on the record or via leaked information to laypress.

Somebody in the CAG needs to step up and put their desire to ship Uphone retail in 2014 on the record in their own words for this effort to really be taken seriously. If Canonical is going to continue to intimate that phones are coming in 2014 a partner...any partner...needs to be able to stand up and corroborate that.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 12:34 UTC (Fri) by sebas (guest, #51660) [Link]

Looking at most of the communication around the Ubuntu Phone, it's all unspecific. A lot of "somebody has shown interest", "we feel it is the right solution" and so on. To me, this really feels like (ha!) being presented a smoke screen without no dependable information in it. But what you're gonna do with those ambitions, and none of these world-changing ideas actually being there in reality, i.e. in working code. Same story goes for Mir, Ubuntu TV, Ubuntu on Android, and all the other failed projects you hear nothing about anymore. They're really doing a disservice to their (fainting) credibility with that.

I've unconsciously prefixed most of the communication coming out of Canonical with "In our wildest dreams ...".

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 3:26 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (1 responses)

They should have held this idea until Unity works well. Desktop is bad enough that I couldn't imagine Unity trying to run on a phone.

Ubuntu Edge: founder says failure isn't the end of the dream (Guardian)

Posted Aug 23, 2013 6:17 UTC (Fri) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

> They should have held this idea until Unity works well. Desktop is bad enough that I couldn't imagine Unity trying to run on a phone.

I don't assume it would be any worse on a phone; to me the Unity desktop experience feels rather tainted by the mobiles-rule-the-world syndrome, so it may even be more at home on one.